Pledging . . . or not?
 

First off I would like to note that in no way am I "dissing" the fraternity's chapter, but fall semester last year TKE came back onto my schools campus. Their slogan was "no pledging, your automatically a brother" To me this just defeats the purpose of joining a fraternity. It almost seems more of a club than a fraternity. Like I said, I have nothing against TKE, I've met some of their brothers at different chapters and they are really cool, not to mention they are enormous nationally. Any thoughts to this bizarre recruitment?

Yes there is a certain sense of accomplishment when you receive your invitation to join a glo. However...maintaining good status and climbing the status ladder (i.e. getting positions on the executive council) is not an automatic thing. It takes a lot of work and effort to get there. I'd say, take the automatic in...if you think the guys are a good match for you. From there,work to make a difference in the group and challenge yourself to grow as a person (get leadership experience).

Let us know what happens.

in_the_zone

P.S. I wrote this thinking you were considering going for TKE. I then realized you may already be affiliated. Consider my post for what its worth in any case :)

Some Greek Fraternities have a No Pledge system now, one being LXA.

We have New Associates, I think being the first to enact this.

N A do attend all meetings, but do not vote.

Because of Risk Management, this has become more previlent than ever.

TKE like many GLOs have changed in the last few Years.

This has led to the mediocrity of all "GLO's".

I got my pin a month ago. I got it, thought it was neat. Then I thought about it. I remembered the hours I spent working for it. I remember doing the house cleans every morning for three months. I remember the fun hazing sessions. I remember everything that I put up with. That pin means much more than just some piece of metal. It means I put a helluva lot of work into everything I did to become a member. I'm glad I put up with hell for alot longer than a week to earn that pin. To just get a bid, isn't worth a damn. Any dumbass can get a bid, to earn the pin makes it worth it.

They may be doing that if they are a startup colony and that will be their "refounding fathers".


If they are doing it this way every semester, thats pathetic and a discrace to me as a greek. I would still consider them GDIs, whats the point of a fraternity if anybody can just walk in and be a brother? How do they form this brotherhood? Does it magically happen when they wear the same letters?

Oh and Tom Earp, dont mean to bust your bubble by any means, but any good chapter of LXA DOES have a pledging period, you just dont know about it.

Yes they do...and I know of atleast a few different chapters that definitely have a good pledging period.

TKE--Mizzou
 

I am not sure that this was conveyed completely. TKE returns to
U of Mo after a long, long absence. This is a colony and they are
not initiated 'til chartering, if I understand our new rules.
But, they might indeed become a "brother" as there is no program
for pledging, per se.
But, he was correct in that each new inductee is a "brother" tho
not as we would call a fully initiated one.
At any rate, MU is a fine school, has a good greek system, plenty
of available men. TKE has a dozen or so chapters in MO and the
return to Missouri will help us all. So, I am not so sure we ought
to dwell on the colonization nomenclature. I don't think Beta is
too concerned with TKE's policies at MU (LOL!). But, we need all
the help we can get....cheers!

bows&toes:"Oh and Tom Earp, dont mean to bust your bubble by any means, but any good chapter of LXA DOES have a pledging period, you just dont know about it."


I guess this is where we differ.

I have been a Brother of LXA for 40 Years as of today.

Pledging as is commonly know is disallowed in LXA. I will not say that some Chapters do not follow what is dictated by Our IHQ.

If it is serious, I know that IHQ will step in and work with that chapter. If they fail to heed warnings, they can and will be dis chartered.

I also think that there may be a difference in what you call a pledgeship and I do.

And you are an expert on all LXA chapters how?

I'm not an expert on all Delt chapters and I've been around for a long time.

no expert, just have old friends from highschool that are in various chapters around the country.

what do you define as "pledging"?

Re: Pledging . . . or not?
 

Either it will work for them, or it won't. If the rest of the campus looks on them as a bunch of lame-os and no one wants to join, they'll close again...if there are enough guys that go for it, they'll keep open.

As Erik said though, this might have been put across incorrectly to the campus.

I wonder if this campus has had some major hazing issues and possibly TKE are aiming for the guys who really want to Go Greek, but don't want to get the $hit beat out of them???? I don't know the campus at all, but that was my first thought.

When are people gonna realize that hazing doesnt usually mean getting the shit beat out of you...On the Lambda Chi subject, all my friends have gone through pledging, as I would call it. I mean, they may have some national things they have to get around (our fraternity has to use certain terms with nationals, in addition to "following" the pledgship length requirements), but I think most chapters generally follow suit on campus. While some people claim that hazing or obstacle type pledgeship is detrimental to brotherhood, I personally feel it strengthens it, and is much more valuable than "automatic brother" type systems. How do you know if you can depend on your fraternity brothers if you've never really gotten to know them/been in a tough situation together, etc...

Ok, I could have phrased it better, but let's face it, when hazing rumors start going around campus, this is the first thing that comes to GDI's minds, whether it's true or not.

Congratulations!

Quote:

Pledging as is commonly know is disallowed in LXA. I will not say that some Chapters do not follow what is dictated by Our IHQ. . . . I also think that there may be a difference in what you call a pledgeship and I do.

I wonder if it's terminology that's causing some misunderstanding. As I understand it, Tom, LXA does not have "pledges." Those men who have accepted a bid to join LXA but have not yet been fully initiated are called "Associate Members," right? But there would still be a period between becoming an Associate Member and a fully-initiated brother, during which the AM would learn about LXA and the chapter, get to know the brothers, etc. Leaving aside the question of whether any hazing (however one defines that) is going on, while LXA would not call the period "pledgeship," it doesn't seem surprising that some in other fraternities might call it that, since it would match up to what they would call "pledgeship" in their own fraternities.

In other words, if "pledgeship" or "pledge period," simply means the period of time between first becoming officially connected to a fraternity and formal initiation, then doesn't LXA had a "pledge period," just without using that name for it?

I think several national fraternities have changed their terminology, ours has as well. However, it varies by chapter. I think at big state schools, you'll be much less likely to find chapters following their national's plan, and probably only use the new terminology when necc. All of our national literature refers to pledges as associate members, but we really don't ever use that terminology.

Right. We changed our terminology about 30 years ago, and there is a proposal before our National Assembly this summer to change it again (from "probationary member" to "candidate").

What do you call your Pledges?

Same O or Same O:)

The Terminology or Name may be different, but is the Period of Learning different?

This debate becomes rather interesting as you look at it from the "being PC" point of view.

In my opinion when you argue the semantics of the language it can appear to be a superficial solution. Personally it's the program itself that makes the difference to me. Fraternities and Sororities will always have a probation period of orientation to ensure that the decision made by the individual to join and the chapter to offer that opportunity were the right decisions.

Recruitment in many areas is far too competitive to wait until you know absolutely everything about someone before you offer a bid. And it’s funny that some National offices are pushing for higher membership numbers driving that competition into frenzy on some campuses...but also pushing for smaller pledge periods with fewer requirements. This prevents chapters from effectively "filtering out" potentially bad members (which CAN be done through academic and conduct standards during the probationary period and NOT hazing). This may also be a result of the attitude of entitlement that some students are entering higher education with. Everyone wants the privileges but don't think they should have to meet the responsibilities. To those individuals I say..."good luck in life because it's going to be hard for you out in the real world"

Calling individuals "candidates, new members, associates, or pledges" really isn't the issue. It's how chapters treat those individuals. My chapter uses the term pledge. And we have a great pledge program that focuses on the positive aspects of Delt and Greek Life. Another fraternity may call them by any other name...and have serious hazing issues. So what difference did a name change make?

I somewhat understand the argument that the term "pledge" has come to hold negative connotations associated with hazing. But so will any other term a chapter chooses to use if the outrageous activities of a few chapters that create that negative connotation are not ceased. Perhaps someday even the word "associate" will hold the same bad stereotype as "pledge".

It would be easy change the jargon until we run out of words in the dictionary, but by doing that are we just trying to out run the real problems?

I know many GLOs take an active stand in trying to face the issues of hazing and I applaud each step of progress Greek Life makes in the direction of ridding our systems of those issues. Because that's what will bring a real solution. And then we can call them "candidates, new members, associates, or pledges" in good conscious.

Amazing simply amazing that someone puts it in a simple Post But So True!:cool:

i personally prefer calling them pledges, or "you" or whatever. They arent in my fraternity yet. Despite the modern moves toward inclusion, some places still require you to earn it.

Yes, agree totally. They are all pledges....and I hate every one of them.....atleast for a period of time.....then I love them all after they earn it.

haha, thats funny that you mention "you." I live out of house now because I am older and I often find myself not knowing many of the newboy's names. So "you" "you there" and "hey you" are used often.

On a related note, regarding the negative connotations of the term "pledge"... For the most part, anybody who would be put off by the term pledge, for whatever reason, is not one I care about being in my fraternity. If somebody is that scared of hazing or whatever it may be, I'm really not interested in bidding them.

also, you PLEDGE your self, loyalty, and honor to your fraternity. Hence the name PLEDGE for one who has made such a PLEDGE and then enter the PLEDGE program and engage in the verb "TO PLEDGE"

The reason someone would be initially put off by the word pledge would be that they are probably unaware of what it REALLY means. It's likely their only exposure to the word "pledge" in Greek Life terms is through negative stereotypes and/or stories about hazing from the few chapters who do us ALL disrespect by their immature and inappropriate actions.

If a chapter's "pledge" program is something positive and respectable (as in they would feel comfortable telling students, parents, college officials, and the media EVERYTHING about what the chapter does in regards to "pledges") or even something you can truly be proud of as an organization; then it's rather easy to break someone's negative image of Greek Life.

Someone may merely be scared because they just don't know what's true and what's hearsay. And if a chapter has to hide what they really do in order to not frighten off potential members...well then...that chapter has to ask itself what is it that they are ashamed of?

Insecurity stemming from uncertainty is understandable.
Insecurity stemming from the truth is fear and guilt.

It may be un-PC and very old fashioned, but I'll never be comfortable with anything but "pledge."

You're right, my point however was that generally, the kids who are unsure about pledging because of stories or whatnot, are not the ones I want. Our guys generally come in with the knowledge that it is gonna be a tough period, and some might not make it. There is still uncertainty of course, because they aren't sure what it will entail, but they are somewhat mentally prepared and desire to go through it. Generally this isn't a problem, as we rarely take people who have had no connection with a greek system. They are usually legacies of some sort to some org, or have friends in fraternities, etc.

Student's coming in knowing that there are higher academic, conduct, service, involvement, and respect standards and being uncertain if one can rise to the occasion to meet those high ideals is one thing. Sure some guys may not meet them and won't make it to initiation.

But those who do are truly better off not only for their success but also their attempt, as are those who may not have made it but tried. That's what positive programming does, challenges future members in the areas that will not only make the chapter more successful...but also themselves. And you can be upfront about all of those requirements. Pledges can know from day 1 what's expected of them. Will they still be motivated by uncertainty of meeting those standards...sure. But it's not uncertainty based on some immature hazing stunt that has no real basis in an organziations value system. And the standards are something that your chapter can truely be proud of.

Coming in thinking it will be tough because they're not sure if they can put up with some idodic hazing stunt is not a concern to be legitimized by a chapter. You can't create good members or good people by tearing them down first.

Don't get me wrong. I have no idea what your chapter does with their pledge program so non of the above comments are acusitory. For all I know you could have a model program in place with NO hazing.

I think I like what your fraternity stands for.

We also don't officially use the term "pledge" -- instead we say "new member". Basically, it means you're afforded all the respect of a regular member, since "pledge" has a negative connotation.

Although I have to admit using the word "pledge" a few times. Oh well.

We do the same thing, it's "new member" and not pledge. However, even when I was a "new member" I still refered to myself as a pledge, it was just easier to say and less confusing to other people. I could care less about the connotations with the word, a new member is the same exact thing. I was never offended if any of the initiated members called me a pledge, although some of them did say "new member" to be politically correct.

I don't like the term "new member" because well.......you aren't a member yet. You are a pledge. You have to earn the right to call yourself a member. Why refer to yourself as a new member of ______ Fraternity when there is a possibility that your ass could get blackballed at any time?

Absolutely. Calling a pledge a "new member" is absurd.

I always suspected that the move away from the word pledge had more to do with PR with the general public rather than with prospective members specifically.
Which is why I am glad we still use pledge as a verb, even if we don't use it as a noun anymore -- you become a probationary member by pledging yourself to the Fraternity in the pledging ceremony.
I agree. I think that this feeling is part of what is behind the proposal for our National Assembly this summer to replace the term "probationary member" (which at least makes clear that it's probationary and can be revoked) with "candidate."

But from past discussions here, it seems to me that this is a fundamental difference between the approaches of non-NPHC fraternities, NIC or other, and sororities, NPC or other. It seems to me that most fraternities draw a clear line between pledges/associate or probationary members/candidates or whatever and members/brothers, with the chapter retaining the right both to "de-pledge" someone and to have a final vote prior to initiation, and with restrictions such as (perhaps) a prohibition on wearing letters prior to initiation. (Some groups seem more strict about the latter than others.)

It seems that sororities, on the hand, seem use "new member" or some variant on it and, as sdsuchelle said, afford the new member almost all of the privileges of initiated membership.

Mars and Venus, I guess.

UNLDelt, all your posts were awesome. :)

And there is a BIG difference between "respecting" someone, and their having the same rights and privileges as a fully initiated member. Until you go through that final initiation ceremony - you are NOT a full member. Period. Make things as "PC" as you want, but if our sororities really believed that the minute a girl gets a bid she's equal to the rest of the sisterhood, we would initiate people on bid day instead of waiting 6 weeks.

I suppose this was directed at my comments in response to macallan25, and I'm glad to be corrected if I have over-generalized.

But members of various NPC orgs have specifically stated here at GC that new members in their orgs do have all the rights and privileges of initiated members -- even including the right to vote and hold office -- except for participation in ritual activity prior to initiation. And quite a few more have stated that anything that seperates or draws distinctions bewteen new members from initiated members is considered hazing. That's what I was basing my observation on.

I agree it is not as great when you are automatically just in and dont have the proper invite.

When a chapter is very low on members or just starting out in a community it is more common now for them to have a lot of people join. We had a few sororities who needed some numbers and one sorority held their own recruitment. We totally supported them and they were able to get a lot of great girls. Granted they did still invite them.

Its just hard when you are either struggling or just new to get the numbers everyone else has. Thats why so many places close down and thats sad. When you do just pick anyone you will infact have bad seeds, but really you always get someone who shouldnt have joined. You dont get to weed people out, but that what pledge process is. If they dont like it or dont fit in, they will probably drop out.

I hate to see new chapters or old chapters struggle so I am all for them doing something to succeed. I know I just want all greek organizations to be very strong and productive so everyone can see what we are all about.

Hopefully this will work for TKE.

I see what you are saying...

Some may call me insensitive, but when hazing becomes defined in such a way I think it caters to the spoiled and entitled attituteds that some individuals have and bring into our institutions.

Nothing is ever owed to anyone unless they earn it.

And while some would say that's the logic behind real hazing...I say it can also be the logic behind resonable and respectable requirements for membership.

Not many other things that are considered a privilage in this world are treated as handouts. Scholarships, Job opportunities, Recognition for achievement, even the ability to even go to college...are all based on the notion that one must demonstrate qualifications for the higher privilages they seek. They just don't hand out Nobel Prizes on street corners do they...

And if we consider membership in our chapters a privilage for those who demonstrate high ideals...then it too should not be treated as a "freebie". If it is, then it will only dilute the worth of being a member.

What's next. Someone argues that being expected to pay their initiation dues is hazing? Or perhaps even being expected to perform to higher academic standards than the rest of the student body. Soon our high ideals will be replaced by mediocracy and then we have completely lost the foundation of our justification for existance as organizations.

^^^ Well said.

If you don't participate in ritual activity, you aren't a fully initiated member. You don't have all the rights and privileges because you aren't participating in this activity - participating in initiation is a privilege. I don't care if (and I hope this would never happen) you somehow get voted into an office before your initiation - if for some reason something occurs in that time window between your election and initiation, and you don't initiate, you aren't going to hold that office.

As Yogi Berra said, it ain't over till it's over.