Atheists as members?
 

As sort of related to the racial/religious requirement thread. Most of the move to remove religious requirements from fraternities/sororities were to allow either Jews or Catholics.

Would your fraternity/sorority allow initiation of a declared Atheist?

Re: Atheists as members?
 

Why not?

Sure, if they felt like conforming to the Ideals and Tenets of The Organization.

Well, if you're going to let the jews and Catholics in, you might as well allow athiests also.

:rolleyes:

:D

what about Scientologists?

Hey, you've got to draw the line somewhere!

Kidding.

I don't see athiests being a problem in our chapters.

There has been some discussion of this topid here:

Joining an organization and not being religious and here:


Christianity in ritual.

You'll see in that second thread some discussion of the fact that Kappa Sigma (perhaps reflecting some Masonic influence) requires belief in God. The specifics of that belief are up to the individual. There may be other GLOs that, again reflecting some Masonic or other influence, require belief in a Supreme Being. My Fraternity does not.

From my understanding, Kappa Sigmas is NOT christianity based. That's just what I had been told. I was told that when they founded Chi Omega at Arkansas, that they also passed along the non-christian based aspects. Just what I've been told.

I've recycled an old post of mine and here it is:

Robert Egan addresses this very subject in "From Here to Fraternity"..he writes: God, Man and Fraternity

Pledges often wonder whether they must admit to a belief in the Big Guy (God, the Almighty, the Creator) during initiation. Yes and No. Yes, some rituals may mention the word God, since many were founded during more traditional times, but no, almost no rituals (according to one study) ask outrightly in the pledge actually believes in Him (or Her).

The rule of thumb is this: If the ritual mentions God, and you are a nonbeliever, either pretend you didn't hear it, or think of God as atoms, love, or a sunny day at the beach, say the stock phrases; and worry about your principles later, such as after the initiation party, after you leave college, or when you reach the Gates of Heaven. Everybody does.

Take it as you will......

membership
 

we have initiated felons, athiests, agnostics, religious folk, queers, lesbians, porn stars, fruitcakes...we have no "clause."
Character, reputation...important, and even then sometimes we stub our toes.
Open rush, open arms. open minds

Kappa Sigma did NOT found Chi Omega. Dr. Charles Richardson, a MEMBER of Kappa Sigma and friend of our 4 female founders, helped the ladies form the fraternity and wrote our ritual and constitution.

Chi Omega's open motto is Hellenic Culture and Christian Ideals. That said, we had quite a few Jewish girls in my chapter and they never had a problem with the open motto. And while I don't want to comment on my ritual, I will say that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior is not part of it. :p

Read carefully. I didn't say it was. I referred to a thread where Kappa Sigmas represented that, despite what Robert Egan says in "From Here to Fraternity," Kappa Sigma requires initiates to profess belief in a Supreme Being, not unlike Freemasonry. As I said, the specifics of that belief can be up to the individual. But one can be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Hindu, possibly Buddhist, Unitarian-Universalist, Deist, Theist or any number of other things and affirm belief in a Supreme Being.

BTW, the pledge manual of Kappa Sigma, Bononia Docet, states (on page 33):

Before any man can be initiated as a Kappa Sigma, he must give his word that he is not a member of another college fraternity and profess a belief in God, and scripture and its teachings. While the Ritual does not require adherence to any one religion, it requires belief in certain values, including that man is responsible to a higher authority.

ETA: Anything I know about this comes only from public sources and from discussion on GC, not from any knowledge of esoteric Kappa Sigma information. So don't take me as an authority on this -- just as someone who is passing along previously posted information that some friendly Kappa Sigs inform me may be a little off the mark. In other words, add a few grains of salt.

I relayed this story already in the Gamma Gamma Chi thread, but apparently many GLOs (or their individual chapters) would have, in the past, had a problem with initiating a non-Christian.

In the early 1970s, my boyfriend's mom was a member of a nationally prominent NPC sorority. After they gave out bids one year, they found out that one of their new members was Jewish. They refused to let her initiate since a Jewish girl "could not partake in a Christian ritual" and immediately depledged her -- my bf's mom feels bad now, of course, but she said at the time it was a unanimous decision because they really felt that it was a religious ritual.

It may have just been her chapter, and I know it wouldn't be that way now, but it's a valid question. In some cases, religion very much mattered.



Edited for spelling

That is correct - the fraternity as a whole did not found Chi Omega.

I am baffled. If an organization claims to have Christian principles, then clearly they intended for Christians to be a member of it. Why would someone who does not even believe in God want to be a member of something that goes against that? This is especially true if Christianity is used in the rituals... If someone is willing to violate their own belief system, what makes you think they will uphold the tenets and ideas of the org?

It all depends on what is meant by the very vague phrase "Christian principles." Does that mean adherence to distrinctively Christian doctrine? Or does it mean, as it often did in the 19th Century (when many of the "Christian principles" GLOs were founded), values such as loyalty, hope, love, chartity, honesty, etc.?

We have an agnostic kid. He gets made fun of constantly. However, I dont really mind taking that kinda person, but if someone was like an openly atheistic God-basher, then yeah, probably not getting in.

It has always bothered me when people assume that atheism equals "God-bashing" or satanism or something similar.

Just because someone doesn't choose to worship a deity, that doesn't mean that he/she condemns those who do. In my experience, I've found that atheists are more tolerant than Christians, Jews, etc... People who are religious tend to bash those who aren't, not the other way around.

watchalo, vato
 

jus' don't let them there snake handlin' Baptists in...

:confused:

So, if you're a non-believer or one that just doesn't believe in say--Jesus being the Messiah or baptism being a neccessary part of salvation--then you automatically go against the tenets and ideas of the organization? That you don't believe in murder; that you don't believe in 'the golden rule'; that you don't believe in *most of* the Ten Commandments (the moral codes, basically)?

I'm probably asking this to a troll, but athiests still have moral and ethical values; Muslims and Jews, B'hai believers, Buddhists and Hindus have moral and ethical standards as well, but because they aren't Christian they go against the tenets and ideas of the org? That they violate their own belief system? What are these tenets and ideas of the org?

enigma_AKA

I forgot my question in regards to this comment...

If someone isn't yet initiated, how do they know to what extent Christianity (or its principles) is in the rituals?

I think our founders would have wanted to accept people with a strong moral compass, not necessarily just spiritual giants. But, I'm just guessing, of course.

I didn't read it as him saying that. He said he didn't mind someone being an athiest, AS LONG as they didn't openly bash God.

Shinerbock, what fraternity are you in?

Yeah thats what I meant. I mean if you're the type of atheist who protests the use of "Under God" in the pledge (AKA Michael Newdow), then yeah, we probably wouldnt be bidding them. But if they respect that those ideals are really important to our fraternity and the huge majority of its members, then I don't see it being an issue.

I'm probably asking this to a troll

I am not familiar with the term troll so I will kindly ask you to explain what that means. Furthermore, who said people of other faiths did not have values? I certainly didn't. My point is this... if an organization claims to be founded upon Christian principles, then why would someone who doesn't believe in Christ want to be a part of that. Now that is different from an organization that says we have certain values and principles but does not claim they stem from a particular religion. For instance, if I was to join an org founded on Islamic beliefs and I had to do things that could be even contruded as worshipping Allah (cause clearly my Bible says to shun the appearance of sin), I would not do it. Why? Because I do not serve Allah. That's not to demean anyone, it's just that's not who I serve. Now before you go off about "worshipping" not being a requirement. I have several friends who are Greek and trust if they weren't already in a church, they were by the end of the process. Some even had mandatory Bible studies and such while online.

Now, as far as other people's values. Jewish values and Christian values (as pertaining to the Old Testament, since you brought up the 10 commandments) are very similiar. Buddhist traditions often discuss and encourage peace and unity. This is also seen in Christianity. The question was about someone who is an atheist joining an org with a Christian foundation/values/principles, etc. Even though they have not made it through the process, just the fact that the org chooses to acknowledge and proclaim that means that at some point Jesus will be brought up. If you don't believe their is a God, then you clearly do not believe He had a Son... so again I ask why would you put yourself in that situation and for the org why even bring up Christian principles in the first place if that's not what you want to be known for?

It depends on individual chapter traditions I'm sure.

I got balled at the Scientology house for taking Psych 101.

Off topic, but my father is the type of Christian who protests the use of "Under G**" and I'm the type of Jew who also protests. Guess what, we were both active and involved members of our respective orgs. Just because someone believes that religion has no place in politics, doesn't mean that they want all religion to be abolished.

On topic: while my house had a Bible study that was open to anyone, it was mainly attended by Baptists. Though, we were known on campus for having a large number of Jewish members. I'm sure we had atheist and agnostic members, though I never went around taking a poll. It simply didn't matter.

Re: membership
 

lesbians?

oops
 

I inadvertently mentioned lesbians in my long list of folks who
were initiated in my Fraternity. My fault, mea culpa, senior moment, duh. Thanks for correcting! Duh

Not to bash you or anything (I actually agree with most of what you said), but, just so you know, "Allah" is just the Arabic word for "God." It means exactly the same thing and is exactly the same entity. Just like Dieu and Dios and Deo mean "God" in French, Spanish, and Latin, respectively. So, if you're a Christian, you do serve Allah, you just call it something else. Just FYI.

LOL!!

A statement that requires some caveats, I think.

True that "Allah" is Arabic for God (kin to the Hebrew "El"/"Elohim"), so Christians who speak Arabic will use "Allah" where we would say "God."

But to say it is "the same entity" -- a la "Christians and Muslims worship the same God" is a different matter, I think. That falls more under "PC - can't we all get along" that accomplishes little. In my opinion, it actually hinders healthy dialogue that might lead to better relations because it minimizes honestly-held differences in the name of getting along.

Yes, the Christian and Muslim (and Jewish) understanding of God derive from the same sources -- all can be considered Abrahamic faiths. But, just to give one example (albeit a major one) -- Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God. Muslims, while they honor Jesus as a prophet, consider the Christian belief unacceptable. I worship Jesus Christ, along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit -- one God in three persons, but all completely God. My Muslim neighbor, I do not believe, would consider that he worships the same God I do.

The same thing happened to me. They forced me to deactivate before I reached OT 3. :(

END TRANSMISSION

My Sorority was founded upon 'Christian Principles', in the sense of the term's meaning in 1904: It is basically taken to mean, loyalty, dedication, high moral standards...

My chapter has members that are Athiests, Agnostics, Orthodox Jews, Jews, Catholics, Christians, Pagans... I don't think a person's religious affiliation should have any bearing on their membership, provided that a given religion is a part of the organizations tenets.

Yes, that's right. I was referring to God the Father, creator of the Universe as being the Allah to which Muslims refer. However, my point wasn't about what "God" means, it was just to say that when Arab Christians worship, they say "Allah," not "God." So, in that sense, the entity that the poster to whom I replied could call her God by the name Allah, and it would not be wrong. I mean, I guess if she really felt like it, she could call her God "Joe-Bob" and it would still be the same thing as long as she personally knows who she is worshipping. But, in purely linguistic terms, "Allah" = "God."

K Star, thats fine, it just means you might not be right for our org. I personally don't care someone's opinion on the "under God" debate, the reason I referenced Newdow is because he is so outwardly opposed to any use of religious reference in the public arena. Someone like that would probably make a similar fuss over some of the things said in our organization, and therefore I'd prefer not have them.

Maybe people should figure out, that no Matter what The Supreme Being is called, it is the same thing.

It still boils down to the fact that if a person Associates and is Initiated, they are a Member and hold to those ideals or work within a frame work of The Organization.

No it is not. That's the point. It can be called by the same name depending on the translation, but it is NOT THE SAME.