The dictation of General
 

So recently our chapter, ZH at San Jose State has been told to drop our traditions of big bro night b/c of alcohol and even elements of initiation due to "hazing," although none of it is physical, it's all mental and effective as well, it does not damage anyone but can get emotional, i wont go into detail for obvious reasons but what do you think of general threatening to drop chapters based on a ABOLSUTE zero tolerence policy, we got an email basically saying General would rather close a chapter and start over decades or so down the road than fix the "problem." I do not feel like we are problematic, we don't haze but we do like to see emotion and have the pledges feel and have devotion towards Beta. How do brothers feel about this? Several brothers feel like General is shooting us towards the path of becoming a sorority.
Yours in ___Kai___

Viktor 158

I also won't go into details for obvious reasons. However, the decision you take holds the future in your hands. I would follow their suggestion. It is hard to comment on hazing accusations when details are not given. In terms of big bro night involving alcohol, that is a risk management violation. On a sidenote, were you a part of the Zeta Eta's who performed the initiation ritual for San Diego in December '04.

I guess you're right, it's just an old tradition we have, and it's fine, but what qualifies as "hazing" is kind of ridiculous to me... Somethings I am for, but most of it I am clearly not. I'm sure i'll be saying something differen't after Men of Principle but that's to be decided. I know about it... but I was not there in San Diego, although I do know several that did go. If you can remember any ZH brother who was there it would probably be Robert Umstatder, he works for General now, he would be a good guy to contact if you ever had any questions or had to talk to General about something or maybe just to say hi. rumstadter@wooglin.com thanks for your input. As of now, big bro night is dry and we must decide anew a new program/night, and I am looking for suggestions of possible activities. Thanks again-

I am very disappointed in the direction that Nationals is going. I think that they are turning Beta into a very weak fraternity or possibly a honors fraternity.

I have traveled to probably 20 or so chapters and there is one general trend I noticed. The chapters that where I thought they guys were cool, fun to hang out with, had good relations with sororities,etc are all having problems with the G.F.

However the chapters that I thought were full of toolbags, let in guys with no personality, limp wrists, and no relations with sororities on campus are exemplified by the G.F.

I have friends from highschool at other Universities that say the Beta's there are a total joke-and yet those are the chapters that the G.F. loves.

I think we are the only Fraternity that would consider it a great year when we have less chapters and brothers at the end of the year than we did at the begginning. Every year since I've been here we've had fewer chapters.

Additionally, just looking on my campus other fraternities that are not my chapters size/age/distinction has more support from their National Office than my chapter does from our national office.

I get very discouraged when I see chapters getting new houses, renovations, etc because of the help from their G.F. and alumni and all my chapter gets is investigated about events that happened 4 and 5 years ago.

I have to say that we are beginning to feel the same way at ZH..

I'd like to hear what this tradition is...Tradition for the sake of tradition is a weak arguement. I agree that the "by the book" definition (the one from stophazing.org) is unnecessarily broad and can construe just about any thing as hazing, but if you're admitting it's pretty rough the I have to know what it is to assess it.

I also wonder what you guys think of my chapter (Nebraska) given that we are pretty much untouchable with the GF right now.

PM me if you want.

I don't know anything about your chapter, but I doubt that it's untouchable.

Like I said, the G.F. closes down more chapters in a year than they expand and open. The average chapter size has fallen, and the # of undergrads is down.

I truly believe that it would have to be an extremely, extremely grievous fault in order for the GF to decide to close or reorganize our chapter. Even suspension would require something pretty big. Someone would have to die for us to be even close to a reorg or closure...

Given that we've won Knox's for 5 out of 6 years, and that we won the Award of Distinction from NIC (one of 5 chapters of ANY fraternity throughout the country) last summer, I just kind of assumed that we would be one of those chapters that you claim are exemplified by the GF. While I know that we don't fit your general stereotyping beyond having good relations with the GF, I just wondered how that all fit together.

Youre right, and that is a sad truth, but it is not about numbers. Our fraternity, though Im not saying recruitment isnt important, is not about having the most chapter or anything of the such. It's about quality. If chapters dont live up to our values, they do NOT deserve to represent us on their campus. It is a collection of chapter presidents that decides this (if im not mistaken) not the AO. In regards to opening chapters, the AO puts alot of work into their new chapter so they can get right on track, and as a participant of that, it still isnt enough help. So, they can only open so many chapters, and do so much. They are trying and they have the best interests of the fraternity at heart. So get off your high horse, and damn it, accept the fraternity you are apart of!!!

AH1610, Tim Henson

You are right in that quality is more important than quantity, but by not concentrating on expansion we are not growing. Growth is the key to success. A fraternity in a way is like a business-the most successful attract the best people.

I really don't think that our Fraternities approach is doing that. When you say that you feel that the AO doesn't prepare you enough for recruitment, I tend to think that the AO is holding your hand too much and not giving you enough responsibility in self survival and learning.

I don't expect to open 20 chapters a year, but opening less than you are closing is a sure way to failure.

I also think that the amount of money spent on leadership schools and that sort of thing is a waste. I've been to a few of them, and it's not anything new or anything that a person with common sense shouldn't already know. Spend that money on recruitment instead of these stupid confrences.

I don't have a problem with someone trying their hardest out of love for my Fraternity-but I certainly won't say that they are doing the right thing when I think it's wrong or not working.

no, they arnt holding are hand too much... our biggest problem is that we don't know what we are suppose to do, and there is no one here to help us with that...

I was in the same shoes when I took over as Recruitment chair. Instead of it being a weakness, I turned it into a strength and came up with things that no other fraternity on campus ever thought of because they were stuck in the same system of thought.

Our chapters belong to a General Fraternity, of which we govern ourselves (undergrad vote). The GF would not steer a chapter in the wrong direction. Many chapters that are already going the wrong direction, feel GF is being a 'Dictator' when they come in and try to fix things.

Tradition for the sake of tradition, is one of the lamest excuses I have heard. If a chapter has a 'tradition' that could cause harm/injury/humility to a pledge or another person, then it should be addressed at a higher level (IE, alumn/advisors/GF rep/Univ. rep). It's like the Shep test = lame. (IMO)

Anyway, GF is not our enemy, they are our best resource. Use it if you will, or continue the way you are - either way is fine, but don't come down on other chapters that do use the GF resources.

-kai-

Dude, you are the only one that keeps on ranting about tradition and how lame it is.

1.No one but you is mentioned tradition.
2.Tradition is not lame. Otherwise, why even be a fraternity?

The chapter delegates have a very limited ability to steer the efforts of the G.F. The General Officers are given a lot of leeway to decide how they want to proceed. I think that they are leading us in a the wrong direction.

Speaking as an individual who was a delegate at last year's convention, I will agree that while in name our undergrads run the show, the reality is that the gray-haired ones in Ohio do. Did the undergrads elect Tom Purinton president of the General Fraternity last year? Yes. Was there any alternative, any debate, any other name brought forward in consideration? No.

You can make a lot happen at the General Convention. However, assuming you can mop up everything in the 4 days you're there, who is running the show the other 361 days of the year? That's right, the guys in Oxford. They continue to test their own individual bounds, and until the General Convention steps up and says "No, that's too far", nothing will change. You won't see the board of trustees disagree with what's going on.

Is hazing a good thing? Not really. Should the general fraternity endorse hazing? No. Should the general fraternity punish hazing? Sure. They have to cover their own backsides. But we're in a fraternity, where the undergrads define the chapter, not the national organization. It makes me sick that people are trying to homogonize Beta. Further, there's an amendment to the Code which is going to be proposed in Toronto, basically saying something along the lines of "Beta won't discriminate based on race, ethnicity, creed, religion, etc." Let's be honest, we should be exclusive. Take the best people as you define them. Every chapter has their own arbitrary factors for determining who gets a bid, some even being as paltry as looks or popularity. Do I have a problem with how any chapter picks their pledges? No, I'm not in their shoes, I don't know who or what is best for them. Discrimination is bad, but we're letting people into a very exclusive club here, you can't just let anyone in.

I think they're saying 'you can't NOT pledge a person due to race, ethnicity, creed, religion...etc.', not saying 'you have to take a jewish man, an african american, a mexican and a homosexual'. This is just a formality, nothing more, and won't change the way any of our chapters operate.

I just hope to God that race, ethnicity, creed, or religion does not factor into your bid process

I totally agree.

I don't see Beta as a charity organization that should take every body that walks in the door. There are people if taken will harm the reputation and standing of the chapter-and that in turn will lead to far reaching consequences.

I think that in some instances Beta is falling into a european stance on individuals. No one should be better than the worst person...

Fellas, there is a difference between excluding people based on what they DO vs. what they ARE.

Does that make sense?

No one is saying you take the guy who doesn't meet the quality requirements. They are saying, that if a man is worthy of joining your chapter, then extend him a bid. If he's worthy, but happens to be black, and you don't extend him a bid, well that's wrong.

I can't imagine that would change the way in which any chapter operates. (Except for Denison, or at least I think it was Denison, that somehow became affiliated with a white power group...)

Further, intake of pledges can and never will be taken over by the GF. It just can't happen. There's no way to legislate that besides setting minimums, and those are up to the General Convention.

Finally - if you want to fix it, then when you graduate and become an alum, get active at the national level. Be the voice of dissent and pull people back when they encroach on the Convention.

Well said.

LMAO... IM from DENISON... lol, yes, the Alpha Eta Colony was involved in a white power group called the wingless angels... and the wingless angels are still around, but I assure you that none of the current Betas are in the Wingless Angels, and that we run a nonracist recruitment.





and yes, that was very well said

Look, this is not an issue at my chapter. However, as I've said before, who am I to judge what person might fit into another chapter's organization? People with differences in religion, race or sexual orientation don't fit into certain chapters? Do I think less of Auburn (merely a fictitious example) for not extending a bid to a black person because it's a house full of rich, white kids? No. While this individual might fit into the Columbia chapter, he might not fit in at Auburn. Different strokes for different folks y'all. We all discriminate in the process for one reason or another. I personally am not of the belief that discriminating on the above factors is any better or worse than discrimination based on looks or popularity. Discrimination is discrimination any way you slice it. The only way to avoid it in this case is to try to extend bids to the entire rush list or freshman class. Otherwise, you're technically discriminating against some individual. That's not good. I'm advocating picking who's best for you, period. Don't think less of chapters who are rich kids not poor kids, white kids not black kids, christians kids not jewish kids. They pick who works with their chapter dynamic and it should be left at that. Period.

If I remember correctly, you are supposed to follow the initiation ritual(s) as they are outlined in the small blue book that we all have. Therefore, you should not be adding any aspects to the ritual, whether you think they are hazing or not. Right?

We, as chapters, have to abide by the rules. If someone says you're hazing, then it's probably best to follow their advice and alter your "traditions" so that they can't be misconstrued as hazing or detrimental.

I don't think that discrimination is discrimination. And further, I think that "fitting in" with a chpater is part of that "what people do" portion I was trying to get at.

I should have fleshed that out a little farther. The proposed admendment is saying, we're not going to deny a bid simply because that person is black, or jewish or gay. If the chapter says, "well we'd give him a bid, BUT he's X" (and X is something that people are - we call them ascribed characteristics in sociology) than that is wrong. This would mean that he "fit" in, but just so happen to have one thing that didn't fly with the chapter.

Further, because the admendment is going to specifically state which areas are not going to be discriminated against (race, color, creed, sexual orientation) then we're protected from having to offer everyone, not that we would have to do anything of the sort anyways. Again, this isn't saying that simply because someone is interested we can't say no, just that we can't say no if the only reason we say no happens to be one of those things.

Most discrimination cases as far as I know, require proof that the trait in question is the only reason why the person was dismissed. If there is ANY legitimate reason, then that is not discrimination.

im confused furman... are you saying a black man can't fit in with a group of white men, just because he is the only black man?

It's a slippery slope situation.

Pretty soon people will be bitching because we don't let females, people with poor GPA's, people that can't afford dues, etc in because the amendment opened up the door for those arguments.

Beta should be an exclusive organization, not one that has to regulate itself to accept everyone. The G.F. is diluting its quality of men and chapters.

Race, religion, creed, ethnicity is nothing in comparison to 'females, people with poor GPA's, people that can't afford dues'. If you're going to make comments, make sure you compare apples to apples, or just tell us outright that you feel people of other race/religion...etc. don't belong. Personal opinions are fine, but don't blame the entire org. for doing the right thing, when you disagree with it.

My entire point is, take the best. Whomever they might be, take them. It doesn't matter to me how a chapter defines the best. My chapter doesn't actively discriminate (at least not that I know of), but I don't fault other chapter which would seemingly do so to the outside world. But, to reply to an earlier question, yes obviously a black man can fit into a group of white men. However, let's be honest here and realize that there are sociologocial differences between people. Are all blacks the same? No. Are all whites the same? No. But I've come across chapters which don't have black members and I don't fault them for it. Be the best, however you define it, that's what Beta has always been about.

you finally said something I totally agree with.

Viktor, is there an update on the situation at San Jose State?

(Except for Denison, or at least I think it was Denison, that somehow became affiliated with a white power group...)

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LMAO... IM from DENISON... lol, yes, the Alpha Eta Colony was involved in a white power group called the wingless angels... and the wingless angels are still around, but I assure you that none of the current Betas are in the Wingless Angels, and that we run a nonracist recruitment.

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TO: BETARULZ! & AEBOT
RE: YOUR RIDICULOUS COMMENTS

Betarulz - Do you make a habit of throwing out caustic accusations under the hood of rumor on subjects you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about? Your post above is pathetic. I am a Denison Beta Alum as well as a former Wingless Angel. The Angels agenda has always been to 'Right the Wrongs' of Dension since its inception in 1905. Although certain deeds/pranks over the years have crossed the line (of which there are no excuses), and the Angles reputation has evolved as politically uncorrect, I can assure you that racism has never been a part of the Mystic & Calorific Band of Wingless Angels. And for you to so casually insinuate a link between the Alpha Eta Chapter and white power group offends me. I hope you read this and respond.

AEBOT - See above, with the loyalty that that house on the hill inspired in me, those in my pledge class and other classes, I question if you are a true Alpha Eta Beta. To acknowledge that your Beta brothers and those that preceded you were affiliated in anyway with a white power group causes me to think of you as a fool, and certainly as someone who I could not call a brother. Furthermore, yes, the Angels are still active, in fact we gathered together in Granville last October (2005) at Homecoming to celebrate our 100th Anniversary. Over 75 Angel alums gathered. We met the current Band as well, and I can assure you, that there is an Alpha Eta presence in the current Band, as there has been since before you ever uttered the words in ___kai___.

Just curious to know who you think you are, to call out a current 'AE Beta'? If anything, you'd be proud of him. Unless you're one of those guys that ran that chapter into the ground??? Apparently, you'd rather go to a 'Wingless Angels' party at your Alma Mater, instead of stopping by the 'house on the hill' and giving the new guys some words of encouragement. Looks like you have no grounds to call out a brother. Your priorities are obviously not the same as others - so instead of calling other people out and saying shit like '...as someone who I could not call a brother', just keep it to yourself- nobody here cares to hear it.

PS, this is the 'Beta Theta Pi' forum, bring something constructive.

In _kai_, or whatever you Wingless Angel guys say I guess.

I am sorry to see/read that one Brother is calling out another brother. It is clear that A.E.B.O.T. was there and has given his opinion on the situation as he saw it while he was there at that chapter.

A.E.B. feels the situation was not as previously stated to the point of calling A.E.B.O.T. "not a Brother" (my paraphase).

Since there is disagreement, I ask that the parties cease fire and agree to disagree.

Didn't the Klan also claim to not hate blacks, Jews, and Catholics? I am unaware of any actions that the so-called Wingless Angels have undertaken to be deemed as a white power organization, but throwing around words out of the blue and calling out brothers on a message board is weak and ridiculous. As a matter of fact, nobody outside of Denison even knows anything about Wingless Angels. So there are Betas in Wingless Angel? Well, there are also Dekes in Skull and Bones, as well as Betas who are members of far worse organizations. Such groups thrive on anonimoty to further any agendas. This message board will give you all the anonimity you wish to have, but none of the 5-10 people who check this board are going to care about what you say., as I doubt Betarulz or AEBOT care too much over your opinion. But I am almost certain that they will be around to put you back in place.

Yes, you are right, I didn't know the circumstances or allegiances of the chapter at Denison. I know nothing of the Wingless Angels, and only repeated what I had heard at a prior convention about the closing of the Denison chapter. This was a story that was repeated to me multiple times during my undergraduate time from numerous members at all stages of their Beta life (pledges, brothers, alums) with varying degrees of ties to the GF (from none at all to an EC or I guess they're LC's now). The story was also corroborated by members of other greek organizations on the Denison campus, as well as brothers from other Beta chapters, when I attended UIFI in 2004.

Whatever I insinuated has been oft repeated and is apparently common knowledge. I understand how one might feel if their organization was misrepresented, but obviously, you have a much bigger PR problem than just me making that connection.

Your New Mission
 

:) AlphaEtaBeta,

Your mission now is to prepare a white paper (3-5 pages) explaining the purpose and mission of the Wingless Angles, and the AE Beta chapter role in its creation and on-going presence.
Please be sure to also include an FAQ type section that answers all those fact or fiction questions about the organization. It would appear from the posting of BetaRulz that there is a lot of mis-information out there that I am sure you would want to have corrected.

Provide us with the knowledge so we may no longer be in the dark.

So bring it on. I for one am looking forward to reading it this weekend.

Yes, please, admit us to the light.

Bring Us To The Light
 

Hey, Brother AlphaEtaBeta, are you going to accept our request for further information on this subject? Are you going to provide an information paper of FAQ sheet to disprove all the false statements (as you state) being made about the Wingless Angles and the Alpha Eta chapter of Beta Theta Pi?

I certainly hope you are going to take time to provide the information to support your views.

geez... I'm off the boards for a few weeks and look at what I miss...

Still Waiting
 

:) I am still waiting for Brother AlphaEtaBeta to post the whitepaper for us.

I want knowledge.