Join Cardinal Mahony: NO on HR 4437
 

This bill makes a lot of charitable activities illegal (including what I do at volunteer clinics in LA), increases racial profiling, and increases racial tensions. By making even small charitable acts illegal almost everyone will have broken the law. Since persecuting everyone is not possible, this law opens the door for a local law enforcement to go after the people they want: who will undoubtedly be poor and non-white.

Not only that: but if we kick out all the migrant farm workers the price of fruit will soar. I like cheap strawberries guys (j/k). This is not a good solution-- as much as people don't like to admit it people immigrate to this country because they can get jobs. Employers give illegal immigrants jobs all the time. Your office building is probably cleaned by them, your lawns are mowed by them, and they are your nannies. Temporary visas won't fix the problem either... what happens when they expire and the immigrants say in the country? We have a lot of illegal immigrants: same place where we are now.

This is a bill that is based in intolerance and does not reflect the true workings of the American economy.

ps- don't tell me stuff about flooding social services or terrorism... we don’t have social services to any extent in this country, and this bill is about illegal immigrans who live in the US. It's about Mexican immigrants who want to stay here to raise families and have a better life like our immigrant ancestors did. Besides, the amount you save on produce (because illegal immigrants pick it for you dirt cheap) is probably more than any services illegal immigrants use.


*********************
From the NY times:

Editorial
The Gospel vs. H.R. 4437



Published: March 3, 2006
It has been a long time since this country heard a call to organized lawbreaking on this big a scale. Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles, the nation's largest, urged parishioners on Ash Wednesday to devote the 40 days of Lent to fasting, prayer and reflection on the need for humane reform of immigration laws. If current efforts in Congress make it a felony to shield or offer support to illegal immigrants, Cardinal Mahony said, he will instruct his priests — and faithful lay Catholics — to defy the law.

The cardinal's focus of concern is H.R. 4437, a bill sponsored by James Sensenbrenner Jr. of Wisconsin and Peter King of New York. This grab bag legislation, which was recently passed by the House, would expand the definition of "alien smuggling" in a way that could theoretically include working in a soup kitchen, driving a friend to a bus stop or caring for a neighbor's baby. Similar language appears in legislation being considered by the Senate this week.

The enormous influx of illegal immigrants and the lack of a coherent federal policy to handle it have prompted a jumble of responses by state and local governments, stirred the passions of the nativist fringe, and reinforced anxieties since 9/11. Cardinal Mahony's defiance adds a moral dimension to what has largely been a debate about politics and economics. "As his disciples, we are called to attend to the last, littlest, lowest and least in society and in the church," he said.

The cardinal is right to argue that the government has no place criminalizing the charitable impulses of private institutions like his, whose mission is to help people with no questions asked. The Los Angeles Archdiocese, like other religious organizations across the country, runs a vast network of social service programs offering food and emergency shelter, child care, aid to immigrants and refugees, counseling services, and computer and job training. Through Catholic Charities and local parishes, the church is frequently the help of last resort for illegal immigrants in need. It should not be made an arm of the immigration police as well.

Cardinal Mahony's declaration of solidarity with illegal immigrants, for whom Lent is every day, is a startling call to civil disobedience, as courageous as it is timely. We hope it forestalls the day when works of mercy become a federal crime.

More info
 

To call your congressmen and tell them to vote NO-- Very important!!

http://www.senate.gov/general/contac...nators_cfm.cfm


From the ACLU:
http://www.aclu.org/natsec/gen/22371leg20051207.html
Quotes:
"Expedited removal is currently being applied to non-citizens arriving at airports with apparently improper documents, to non-citizens arriving by sea, and a few other narrow categories of non-citizens.
Even as currently applied, expedited removal has resulted in terrible mistakes, including its wrongful application to genuine refugees and even to US citizens."

"H.R. 4437 also would erode even further the basic rights of immigrants to judicial review, even by the constitutionally-guaranteed writ of habeas corpus. H.R. 4437 would criminalize all violations of immigration law, with very serious consequences for genuine refugees and others who qualify for humanitarian relief."

XOMichelle, part of coming to this country in good faith requires that one respect the laws of this country. By breaking the law simply by being here, these folks aren't showing that good faith and in my mind don't deserve an iota of support.

I agree that private charities shouldn't be regulated as to who they can serve. I do think, however, that social services ought to be limited to those who have a legal right to be here, pay taxes, etc.

What you are saying is that it's okay to strain the social services and criminal justice systems of our border states to the extreme so that we may have low prices for fruit.

Also, your proposition says nothing about the relaxation of immigration standards making it easy for anyone who wants to be a law abiding worker in America to be exactly that. If your argument has to rely on half-truth and deception to hold water, there's a good chance that it's entirely bogus.

Not to mention that you can import fruit from Mexico, much like we do with quite a bit of our food products.

The best quote I saw on something like that was one guy talking about how they don't want to be criminals - ummm you broke the law by entering this country illegally already superstar.

Michelle are you doing this for your boyfriend?

-Rudey

I think there are better ways, like enforcing employment laws on employers (ie take away the incentives).

Either way it is illegal. Illegal is illegal.

And it's funny how you forgot to mention the fact that the bill includes a provision to legalize 11 million illegal aliens while allowing 400,000 new guest workers every year - the largest for several decades.

But I'm sure you didn't know about that and were just jumping on a pretty bandwagon.

-Rudey

I'm happy that I live in a part of the country where this isn't really as big of a problem as other places.

However, it has still affected my life. My uncle (that part of the family lives in Tulsa, OK) was killed by a drunk driving illegal immigrant from Mexico. The illegal immigrant fled the scene, and shortly thereafter fled the country before he could be caught.

There was a lot of red tape involved, and no one was ever punished for the death of my uncle. Apparantly this is a big problem in that part of the country.

So personally, it's hard for me to overcome my emotions on issues like this. I'm a fairly liberal person in general, but I do take a hard line on some things, and this is one of them.

I agree, we should lock up the people who employee illegals, but both the criminals and those who bring them here should be punished.

Which this bill does as well. But I'm sure Michelle knew that as well as the fact that so many illegals would become legal now...right?

-Rudey

Jesus are you serious? Sorry about that. :(

I'm so sorry for your loss. Something very similar happened to one of my chapter sisters last year in Atlanta. :(

Thank you (and Bobby, too).

It's just an example of how everything isn't all roses and light and puppy dogs when it comes to these kinds of topics.

It's nice to want to help people. But sometimes in doing so, you hurt others.

I guess it goes back to the old question- who should we be helping? Should we be helping ourselves and our own citizens? Or should we be helping others first?

Wait, here's what I've gotten out of this thread:

-The amount I save on produce is more than the amount used on social services for illegal workers.

(Wow - could I get a citation here? You're abusing a stereotype, or at the least a state-centric phenomenon, to rationalize a national policy? Just wow.)

-This bill will harm illegal aliens.

(Uh . . . )

-Taking away charitable acts will allow police to target the poor and non-white.

(I'm pretty sure the poor are not the ones in position to run these high-dollar charitable acts such as your volunteer clinic . . . in addition to the points Rudey has raised . . . plus what's this 'allow' stuff, aren't police already in a position to target poor, non-white, stupid, or whoever they please? Isn't that an issue with law enforcement, and not related to the bill at all?)

Illegal is illegal. Sometimes things actually are as cut and dried as they seem.

Gee, why didn't I think of that?

As I said, it's a complex issue, but it really does come down to that.

The White Male Genre is the Minority at the moiment!


Soon there will be No Levels of 3 Levels of Living.

Soon, there will be Those who make Money, (Wealthy), The Poor and The Begone Middle Class, Most of Us!:eek:

The Middle Class takes care of the Lower Class and The UPPER Class take care of them selves.:mad:

Hell, I am Proud to be a Middle Class Slub who owns a Small Biz, and getting Hosed!:mad:

Watching the news this past week, I saw alot of kids ditching school and running around the streets (and even freeyways) of L.A. in an attempt to "protest".

Har har har Reminds me of my Jr. High days



Does anyone remember prop 187? I was in jr. high when this was proposed in 94 or 95. I didn't care what the bill was about back then because I was only 13, but just about my entire Jr. High ditched school for in an attempt to protest (simirlar to this past week) Sure dude. They didn't protest, all they did was just go home and whack off or whatever. Good times. I ditched too (but not to protest, because the entire damn school was empty lol) and chanted " Viva La Rasa" with my friends and played video games.

Actually, what it comes down to is recognizing that there is an economic niche for these people in our country's economy. They create wealth while they serve as the bottom labor force of the US. Many pay taxes (since they have fake identification), but do not use soical services because of fear. Trying to give them temporary status in this country delays a problem that ultimately has to be dealt with permanently.


The bill is not only ineffective at dealing with the real issue of having undocumented workers in the country, but it also serves to push more intolerance and prejudice into American society as well as edging away our civil liberties (like having to prove with documentation that you are a citizen if you are 100 miles from a border).

You make no sense. Did you not read what I or anyone else wrote?

It would make 11 million illegals into legals.

It would generously allow for the largest Mexican workforce to come here legally in 40 years.

Civil liberties? What are you talking about?

And the law is the law. They are illegal aliens. Do you not understand that? This is about enforcing that law. Should we just close up every embassy and border patrol and let whomever into this country?

How much do they pay in taxes btw?

-Rudey

I dunno folks...
 

Didn't they pass the HR bill? Or is it in the Senate. I'm confused...

We are picking and choosing who we want in the country illegally. Broad stroke generalizations aside, we all know who we are talking about: Latinos--especially the folks who run the border are the folks we want out of the US... And I think that's stupid. Whereas, to put it bluntly, we ain't saying the same thing about the tons of Asians in this country--who are probably here just as illegally--who may just have better bootlegging equipment, more money to buy off politicians, and better "systems" to become legal immigrants, i.e. green card holders.

I work with numerous folks from various ethnic groups from all over the world. All I can say is this law sets bad precedent because it cannot and will not be applied equally to EVERYONE WHO IS IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY... It will be racial profiling and just by hypocrisy alone, we are selling out to the highest bidder for this "global economy".

Earpman has it right--the Middle Class is getting jacked all in between...

And yeah, wrong is wrong, illegal is illegal. But black is not white as cut and dry as you all wanna make it. Summa y'all's ancestors ought not be here based on that logic... You all gonna go back to your "country of origin" based on that kinna thinking? Even if your ancestors fought for the US, just like some "illegal aliens" are now in Iraq? What about them and their families? Oh, yeah, our military does send folks who are not citizens of this country off to war--been done for a long time... And some of our citizens fight for Osama Bin Laden... What does that say?

Re: I dunno folks...
 

No they haven't passed the HR 4437, and I dont think they are---they have a few other bills being discussed in the senate.

But anyways, I totally agree with AKA_Monet. The fact that everyone is focusing on the Hispanic population as being the cause of all the problems is wrong. Like miss AKA_Monet said, what about all the other ethnicities that are here illegally? Illegal is illegal is not a good reason to support (or even protest) this bill. There is so many illegal things happening in this country, corrupt politics, drugs, etc. Why focus on the undocumented immigrants. All they want is to be here trying to make life better for their children.

Undocumented immigrants take the lowly jobs, the jobs with not a lot of benefits (and trust me, even if the jobs had benefits the undocumented immigrants dont get it). They rarely use social services for fear of getting caught and being deported. I don't understand the problem with these people becoming legal. So 11+ million people would become legal, is that so wrong? Do you hate the hispanic/latino (and lets just say MEXICAN) population so much that you rather have them all put in jail than just to become a citizen of the country that they want to be a part of?

Do you even know how proud these immigrants are that they are in America!?! The fact that I might have to show documentation at my CHURCH to prove that i'm an American citizen is crazy.

And why are they doing this? Because they don't want any further terrorist attacks. How many times have you heard of a MEXICAN/Puerto Rican/Cuban/etc committing terror attacks? ZERO. Why? Because unlike others, we have pride for the country that our families struggled for. There are so many undocumented immigrants fighting in Iraq that its unreal. My grandfather fought in WWII as an illegal immigrant because he was told he could gain citizenship for him and his family. My mom, her siblings, and all the children were born here in the United States, so we didn't have to struggle like our grandparents (and their siblings) did. So the fact that my country wants to keep out any relatives that I might have is crazy.

Add to the fact that, with HR 4437, I'd get put in jail for 1-20 years for even TALKING to an undocumented immigrant. So if I found out a family member was here in the United States (whether i knew they were undocumented or not) and I wanted to meet them to say "hi" or have lunch with them, I could potentially be locked up for 20 years! How wrong is that?

If it was easy for the immigrants to get a Visa, passport, or anything like that, then they'd get it. But Mexico doesn't make it easy for anyone to get anything like that. We've been trying to get a dance teacher from Mexico over here for a week to teach a workshop. We were told that all she had to do was send a letter explaining the reason she was going and proof (from us here in the US) that what she was saying was true. But they still DENIED access to give her a visa, and to rub salt in that wound for her they granted access to her mother and sister to get a visa for the same reason. Its wrong!

I'm sorry that happened to your uncle kddani.

Re: Re: I dunno folks...
 

Ok, my husband is Mexican, and I'm all for immigration & amnesty - but this sentence is just silly.

Re: Re: I dunno folks...
 

I'm here because my ancestors were legal. If yours weren't, that's your burden.

Given that oceans separate us from most other countries, the illegals from Mexico are much more abundant, hence the focus. Either way, nobody said that there would be no enforcement against non-Hispanic illegals. I don't know where that came from.

And we pump billions into anti-drug programs. I would say that we try to enforce it.

So really, is it an anti-hispanic movement? Especially given the hispanic movement's voting power.

Now I think that the bill allowing for the conversion of millions of illegals into legals is a good compromise. On top of that I read a great idea: Give free citizenship to any illegal that turns in a boss that employs illegals.

-Rudey

Re: Re: I dunno folks...
 

This is painting things with a bit too broad of a stroke. For example, my ancestors came in through legal means, whether it was Ellis Island or other ports of entry.

Re: Re: Re: I dunno folks...
 

Yeah I understand that, but from what I've been told through history class (although now that i think of it, my history teacher could just have fed us some bullshit) at the time...there was really not such thing as a legal immigration.

Looking back at what my professor said, I've come to the conclusion that it was probably some bullshit---so i've retracted my earlier statement.

quote:Originally posted by epchick
If it wasn't for all our ILLEGAL ancestors, we wouldn't be in this country, and America wouldn't exist as the country it is today (which is both a good and a bad thing).


Oh man I've got a headache

But would they be considered illegal if there were no laws back then regarding immigration? :confused:

There were definitely laws back then because they had set up quotas by country and race.

The nativist lobby, including DAR which honeychile is a part of, really pushed for it.

This has a table of some of the quotas. Don't worry, the Polish did OK.

http://history.uchicago.edu/faculty/MaeNgai/ngai.html

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: I dunno folks...
 

and

Rudey:

I'm sorry, your are wrong with those statements in just saying them. They may be fact on documented textbooks, but the reality is what you are saying is petty and effed up.

It is my understanding that many folks who came through Ellis Island were undocumented and some were illegal. That is why many large cities, like NYC, had the early "race riots" in the late 19th and early 20th century. I do not feel like pulling paper right now.

The other thing is the many Ellis Island folks were ran out of areas like, New Orleans, in the early 20th when they set up their "homesteads" due to the ability to handle the "shipping industry" and ports. In fact, may early 20th century immigrants were barely allowed to live below the Mason-Dixon line until sometime in the 1950s or 60s. And even today, in some parts of the South, they will burn Synagogues rapidly--I remember it happening when I use to live in Atlanta in the 80's...

I do understand the border situation that we are facing. There is the issue--especially at the Texas border that the lines shift, every now and then. How do you explain the "Tejanoes" and their culture? And do NOT tell them they aren't US-Mexican citizens...

Then because of the US-Mexican war in the early 20th century, the US constructed several railroad crossings through parts of Eastern Southern California--the Tecate to Mexicali rail service. In fact, the Colorado River and the California Aquaduct runs through "some parts" of what Mexico can consider their property. I have driven that route several times. And yeah, they got border patrol, but still, you cannot say it is NOT the US encroching on Mexican sovereignty and property rights...

The other bad precedent this kind of law sets, is that it is asking healthcare providers to not do anything to those that suffer--especially emergencies. The elder population rarely goes to the doctors anyway. But the younger population--you just do NOT want young girls throwning babies in trash cans... That is what happens in the migrant camps--girls are being raped, etc. I have seen that with my own eyes and it is not cool. I'd rather have them feel like they have a safe haven than to live in fear of living here because folks are afraid of "brown skinned people"

Now, there is a way around this ruling and there ain't chit the US can do, 'cuz there will be a backlash that the US hasn't seen in a VERY LONG TIME... The First Nations--Native American population can ceremoniously declare lands that the US had stolen from them and I bet they got better proof of it and a lot more lawyers to help them--especially the gaming tribes. But even the Navajo nation can ceremoniously declare the entire state of New Mexico as their land and the land below it which is part of the Guadalajara state in Mexico...

*From a myspace bulletin

I just thought I would repost this because we all know that it's true.

More than 36,000 students from throughout Los Angeles County, California skipped classes and marched through streets and on various freeways Monday, March 27, 2006, to protest an immigration bill being debated in Congress. "We may be illegal immigrants, but we are human," Metropolitan High School senior Melania Preciado said as she waved a Mexican flag. "We deserve the same rights as everyone else, not be treated like criminals." What an ironic statement.

If we all went to Mexico...would we be treated as humans?? (Think of all your friends who have driven down to Mexico for a weekend trip and were either thrown in jail for looking at the Mexican police the wrong way, or were pulled over for no apparent reason and FORCED to pay off the Mexican police in order NOT to be thrown in jail)...

1. Try driving around as a Gringo in Mexico with no

liability insurance, and have an accident.



2. Enter MEXICO illegally - never mind immigration quotas,

visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.



3. Once there, demand that the local government provide

free medical care for you and your entire family.



4. Demand bilingual nurses and doctors.



5. Demand free bilingual local government forms,

bulletins, etc.



6. Speak only English at home and in public and insist

that your children do likewise.



7. Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican

school system.



8. Demand a local Mexican drivers license. This will

afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your

unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico.



9. Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English

to all its officers.



Good luck!



It will not happen in Mexico nor any other country
Try
in the world...except right here in the United States...

Land of those who want to take care of everyone,

except American Citizens!


These "student" protesters, haven't the slightest clue as to what the hell is really going on. They just want an excuse to leave school. What a disgrace to AMERICA, our country!

If you're going to waive a Mexican flag to support your heritage, fine... Just make sure there is an American one next to it...the land that gives to all of its immigrants, and you. IF Mexico is SOOOOO great - Why leave it and come to America? Think about it! Mexico isn't giving their people what they deserve, and that's why they want to be here in America. What is Mexico really doing for its people, other than making them desparate to leave? This is not about people coming to America...just come legally, so the legal system, education, medical, housing, etc., can operate more smoothly and fair for those who are citizens, and those who long to be.


If you agree, pass it on.

If you don't, Please....go ahead and try all the

above in Mexico (and enjoy the prison there too...).

Damn BTD, as You said!

But try getting into Other Countrys with out a Visa! I have only been to a few!

Hungary, Germany, England, Austria.

Mexico dont count, but You damn sure better have someone with You who Comprehendo English and Espinola!

You go to Jail there, You in deep doo doo!:(

I think they called them Snow Men In the Movie of same title!:)

I was gonna say a whole lot as a response to this, but I won't.

I just want to say that this was totally not necessary. I understand that this is how a lot of Americans feel towards the situation, but that was absolutely hurtful to me. Wow!

Did you know they have special envoys that visit jails in Tijuana to check to see if teenagers from San Diego are being held in jails and figure out who to payoff to get them out?

-Rudey

Is any of it untrue?

This happened to my boyfriend's best friend the other month. He lives in San Diego. He told us that this has happened to a lot of his friends.

I definitely classify myself as a liberal but on this issue, I'm not. I'm for this bill for all the reasons that were in your post from Myspace.

Well I do know my "spiritual advisor" was sent down to NO by the Vatican to look into this... and frankly he was disgusted by both sides of the issue - basically the fact that both sides had drifted to the opposite extremes and forgot the people directly affected...

This has nothing to do with the bill, but I've had a similar experience.

I wasn't drunk, wasn't anything. I was just standing in line to buy a yummy taco when the federalis came up to me and started yelling at me. Handcuffed me and and tried to pull me to their car. Want to know what I did? Nothing. My friend spoke spanish and tried to see what the hell I did. They told him I damaged a car. "What car?" They then kicked a cars hupcap off (a random car) and said I did that. Then I had to bargain with them to let me go. Gave up 50 bucks for nothing.

Good times, I can't wait to go to Rosarito again.

The thing is I really like churos so this tears me up.

-Rudey

It is not whether it is true or untrue, its hurtful period. What happens it all that was written about your people? Wouldn't you be hurt?

I live on a border city too....San Diego is NOT the ONLY border city, so to just say "well it happens in San Diego" is stupid. So what? The police here in the US are corrupt also, so to say that Mexico doesn't treat people like humans IS hurtful.

I guess it is because my area is probably completely different than your area. In my city, you can't get a job without being at least a little bilingual....its just a way of life here. So to here people say something to the effect of "they can at least learn English" is foreign. People here don't complain about bilingual speakers, and yes it is a little hurtful. I'm not saying that it is wrong to think that--I also think that they should learn English, but dang be a little more tolerant. What is wrong with asking for a doctor/nurse who speaks Spanish also? Again, I guess its different in different areas of the country, so i can't say that it isn't a big deal, when in another area it might be.

All I know is that through all this stuff, we are being treated differently. I got a call from my cousin (who lives in Colorado) and she's been saying that her family have been treatly awful! All of our family are NOT undocumented, we are all natural-born citizens of the U.S., but to some people that isn't good enough. She's told me that her school has already made her prove that her and her brother are U.S. citizens, and anywhere they go they are treated differently. They do speak Spanish to each other (even though they are all fluent in English) and whenever they speak Spanish...like in a restaurant or something...they either get dirty looks, or they are asked to either MOVE to a different area, or they are told to leave the restaurant. Why are people treating them that way, they are U.S. citizens, is it because they speak Spanish---that now people are being given the benefit of the doubt? What now if someone speaks Spanish they are automatically designated as a undocumented immigrant? That's sad, especially because my cousin's dad (who is also my cousin) is part of the Air force, and so there is rarely a time where he is out of his uniform.

I dont' know, I guess its something that I wont understand for a while, but it still hurts.