I need a catholic to explain this to me....
 

So since its St. Patty's day, all the bishops are giving dispensation so peeps can eat corned beef on the holiday. I can especially understand how important that is in South Texas where I have actually met BOTH Irish people here. But that is besides the point.

I thought the rule was (dispensations aside) that Catholics couldnt eat BEEF on Fridays during lent or ash wednesday. I guess that belief was perpetuated because all the restauraunts here advertise fish dinners on Fridays during Lent. Fish is a meet, so whats up? What are the rules? I know about the under 14 / over 60 exemption, but still? Fish/No Fish? Whats up with Chicken? Go or no go?

No meat to the Catholics means no beef, chicken, pork, lamb. If it lives on land, you don't eat it, if it lives in water, you can eat it.
The whole point is supposed to be sacrifice. I laughed to myself when someone at work was complaining in Ash Wednesday that there was no fish available for lunch. I suggested that she have grilled cheese and she said "I was looking forward to fish", which is totally against the whole point of having a "fast" day.

The "Saints" days are considered feast days, so there is a conflict when it happens on a fasting day during Lent. That's why the dispensations were issued.

In the case of St. Patrick's Day, usually the dispensation comes with a "Pick another day that week and don't eat meat". It's not about what "counts as meat" and what doesn't, it about sacrifice (and rememberance of sacrafice). It's also not a "you'll burn in hell if you don't do it" kind of thing. Let's say it's a Friday in Lent, and you completely forgot and you're halfway through your hamburger - from what my religion teachers taught me in Catholics school (I'm Luthern, but I halfway payed attention) the "church" would rather you finished your hamburger and picked another day to go without meat, then to throw it away and be wasteful.

Not trying to be dense (or confrontational, either), but I don't get it. Obviously, I'm not Catholic, so ultimately it doesn't really affect me. But, I'm curious nonetheless.

Is this "rule" based on a particular scripture, or is it just the way Catholics choose to make sacrifices?

Is St. Patty's Day a Catholic holiday of sorts? AGDee mentioned that the dispensation came about because "Saints" days are feast days (which conflicts with a fasting day). Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the sacrifices Catholics are expected to make on fasting days are more... important, if you will... than feasting days (but again, I have no idea - this is all just my opinion). Why would the Catholic Church side with the feast day, when it seems they should do just the opposite?

Also, if "rules" can be changed so easily, doesn't it kinda defeat the point of having them? I mean, they were implemented for a reason, right? If the rules are based on scripture, shouldn't the exceptions be, too?

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult - I'm just curious! This Baptist is having a hard time wrapping her mind around Catholicism!

Trust me, it's confusing when you first start learning about it!!!

The fasting during Lent is more of a church tradition then scripturally based, athough fasting is discussed in the Bible.

As for "feast" days, these are also church tradtions, and are in honor of a particular Saint (in this case, St. Patrick, but there are dozens of feast days). The feast days don't really "override" the fasting, but rather, as I mentioned, the fast day is typically moved to another day for that week (usually Saturday). It's not that either one is more importaint then the other, but St. Pat's is a spesifc day (Saints days are USUALLY based on either the day of their death or birth, but I believe they try to avoid days that are already "taken" by other saints), whereas Fridays were picked because of Good Friday, but really could have just as easily been any day of the week.

And the point of having "rules" isn't that they are hard and fast and if you don't follow them then you're a horrible Christian who will burn, but they are something you should do for yourself to strengthen your own faith. If you're going to not eat meat grudgingly, then you might as well not do it at all, because you're missing the point. The point is for you to willing give up something to grow in your faith, not because you HAVE to.

I am a Luthern and I could never be Catholic for certain reasons, but I am open to learning about different religions, and I'm glad I got to spend time in Catholic school.

I have been having this arguement with my family and friends for years. I am Methodist but have attended the Catholic Church with my hubby and kids for the past 20 + years. It seems to me that to go to a nice resturant or the local Knight's of Colombus Hall and have a "feast" of fish with all the fixin's including beer and wine totally defeats the purpose of sacrifice. If it is something that you enjoy doing and it has actually turned into a party (which is often the case), it is not a sacrifice!!!

I'm not putting down the tradition, I've just never understood the "logic".

To add a little to what AlphaFrog said, fasting or abstinence (giving up meat or some other foods) during Lent is not a scriptural mandate, it is a church discipline. Indeed, observance of Lent, while very ancient, is not a scriptural mandate either, although the 40 days are modeled after Christ's 40 days in the wilderness.

Lent originally arose as a time for new converts who were being educated in the faith to prepare for their baptisms, which would take place on Easter. It was also a time for those who had become estranged from the church or excommunicated to seek reconciliation with the church. From these roots, it developed into a time for all Christians to engage in penitential disciplines as a way of preparing for Easter.

Note that if you check a calendar and count from Ash Wednesday to Holy Saturday (the day between Good Friday and Easter), you will get 46 days, not 40. That is because Sundays are not counted. Since at least the fourth century, it has been considered innappropriate to fast on Sundays, since each Sunday is a festival of the resurrection, or a "Little Easter." The same kind of reasoning can apply to other festivals and feasts that might occur during Lent.

As for Fridays, at the time of the early church, pious Jews fasted or abstained from certain foods on two days each week -- Tuesdays and Thursdays (unless a festival fell on one of these days). The church kept this tradition but moved the days to Wednesday and Friday, partly to distinguish their practice from the Jewish practice and partly as a rememberence of Good Friday (making every Friday a "Little Good Friday" just as every Sunday is a "Little Easter"). Eventually, only the Friday abstinence was observed. Since the Second Vatican Council, the Friday abstinence, while recommended throughout the year, is only obligatory during Lent.

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Is St. Patty's Day a Catholic holiday of sorts? AGDee mentioned that the dispensation came about because "Saints" days are feast days (which conflicts with a fasting day). Now, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the sacrifices Catholics are expected to make on fasting days are more... important, if you will... than feasting days (but again, I have no idea - this is all just my opinion). Why would the Catholic Church side with the feast day, when it seems they should do just the opposite?

St. Patrick's Day is a feast day, especially for Irish Catholics and Catholics in dioceses where St. Patrick is the patron saint, such as New York. (And BTW, it's St. Paddy, not Patty. ;).) But "feast" here is being used in its original sense -- a religious festival commemorating an event or honoring God or a saint. The root of "feast" is the same as the root of "festival." Big, festive meals came to be called "feasts" because they occurred on "feast days."

Since early days, the church has commemorated saints and matyrs. Typically, and if known, the feast occurs on the day the saint or martyr died.

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Also, if "rules" can be changed so easily, doesn't it kinda defeat the point of having them? I mean, they were implemented for a reason, right? If the rules are based on scripture, shouldn't the exceptions be, too?

The rules on fasting and abstinence during Lent are not meant to be hard and unbending or types of punishment -- they are spiritual disciplines designed to help people renew their faith and prepare to enter completely into the mystery and celebration of Easter. Given that, some flexibility is not only permissible but probably desirable. Otherwise, legalism rather than the spirit of penitence wins out.

In theory, that is your only large meal that day - you are not supposed to be starving yourself entirely on Ash Wed. and Fridays, but instead eating smaller meals.

And there actually is somewhat of a scriptural basis to Lent - 40 days and nights ring a bell, anyone? We're supposed to be making small sacrifices and improving ourselves, while remembering the large sacrifice that Christ made for us.

Also - Lutheran. With an A.

Also - it really couldn't have been any other day of the week - GOOD FRIDAY is Good Friday for a reason, and that's why we use Fridays.

And a final point - all of my Lutheran friends (from 3 different denominations) observe Lent to varying different degrees.

I just saw that MysticCat posted so I am going to shut up and prepare myself for an evening of consuming green beer with the Conservinator, who better not try to wear an orange shirt again this year. :mad:

Interesting - in my almost 30 years as a Catholic (which included 6 years of Catholic school), I always thought it was just cow that was forbidden. Guess I'm going to hell. :)

I remember the time in college I was singing in the choir of an Episcopal church. On Good Friday, the church provided a lunch for those who were attending any part of the 3-hours service. Following the "rule of no meat," the centerpiece of lunch was lobster bisque. Kind of missed the point by a mile, I thought.

I agree with you, and think that's where the legalism ("we're observing the rule") seems to win out over the underlying spirit. We have a Catholic church nearby that has the "feast of fish" you describe. Another nearby Catholic church has a simple, vegetarian supper every Friday during Lent, which is followed by Stations of the Cross. I think that's much more in keeping with the spirit of the Lenten disciplines.

Last Sat. when we were having the parade here, one of the bartenders had an orange shirt on. I asked if he was Protestant or if it was just a coincidence. He said he's actually Jewish but sympathetic to Northern Ireland - and also that I was the first person who got it. I thought everyone knew about that.

Very impressed!! Most people haven't got a clue about orange on St. Patrick's Day. And of course, the Ian Paisleys and Orange Orders have taken what was once a fairly innocuous symbol and turned it into something of an embarrassment.

I try to compromise by wearing something green with my orange, but because of the embarrasment already noted, my orange tends to get a little smaller every year. ;)

And yes, as you noted, it's not just Catholics who observe Lent. We Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Lutherans, and many others do as well, though perhaps not in all the same ways as Catholics. And our Greek GreekChatters could, I'm sure, tell us how the disciplines of Eastern Orthodoxy for Great Lent make all of the disciplines of the rest of us pale in comparison.

<-Not a good speller, I know.


My grandmother was "orange" Irish. But I don't own anything orange to wear, so I wore my green Notre Dame HS Irish softball longsleeve Tshirt.

Nope. My family is Ulster Scots -- Scots who came to America by way of Ulster/Northern Ireland. (And please, we [i]don't[i] say "Scotch-Irish," since people aren't "Scotch" and we sort of kept to ourselves, never really intermarrying much with the real Irish.)

For the benefit of others who may not know, green is the traditional color of Catholics in Ireland (and of Irish people in general), while orange is the traditional color of Protestants in Ireland, most of whom came from Scotland. The use of orange came from the Protestant Prince William of Orange (of William and Mary fame -- he was Dutch, and orange is still the national color of The Netherlands. That's why in the Olympics, Dutch athletes always wear orange.) This the origin of the colors of the Irish flag -- the Green is for the Catholics, the Orange for the Protestants and the white for the peace and unity between them. (Would that it were so.)

In all the years I've worn orange on St. Patricks Day, no one (outside family and a few other Ulster-Scot type friends) has ever caught on, other than to say "where's your green?" But as I said earlier, it getting to the point where it's almost embarrasing to claim orange.

Still, it's heartening to see how many people here know about the orange-thing. Just proves again the superior knowledge of GreekChatters.

This is so interesting.

I've never heard of the orange thing. Coincidently, I'm donning orange today. :)

Thanks so much everyone for enlightening me! I knew I should've taken that religion class while I was still in school!

Re: I need a catholic to explain this to me....
 

All Bishops are not giving dispenastions. Ours in the Diocese of Eastern Oklahoma did not, but the Bishop in Oklahoma City did. It is up to the individual Bishop.

In Irish history, Catholics fasted from meat during all of Lent, not just Fridays, and of course all Catholics fasted from meat on Fridays all year, not just during Lent. So, regardless of whether St. Patrick's Day fell on a Friday or not, meat would not have been allowed. The Bishop of Ireland tradiationally granted a dispensation, not just for corned beef, but also to engage in a celebration of their patron. (Any celebrations during Lent were and still are forbidden.)

My family has never participated in the dispensations even when they were given.

The last time St. Patrick's Day was on a Friday, Cardinal O'Connor of the Archdiocese of New York gave a dispensation, but Bishop Daily of the Diocese of Brooklyn did not. So depending on which side of the East River you lived, you could either eat meat or not. I haven't decided if I will eat meat or not. It depends on what they serve at dinner tonight.

Just a word of advice, don't wear orange in NYC on St. Patrick's Day. Most people of Irish heritage know what that means, and you can get hurt.

I was taught that the Irish flag is green, white, and gold, not orange.

No, it's definitely orange.

The webpages of The Department of the Taosieach (Prime Minister) describes it this way:

National Flag

The national flag of Ireland is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The flag is twice as wide as it is high. The three colours are of equal size and the green goes next to the flagstaff.

The flag was first introduced by Thomas Francis Meagher in 1848 who based it on French tricolour.

The green represents the older Gaelic tradition while the orange represents the supporters of William of Orange. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the'Green'.

http://www.atlasgeo.net/fotw/images/i/ie.gif

I'm thinking, however, that the advice not to wear orange in NYC today is well-founded. ;)

I don't think she means she literally thinks it's gold...I think it's sort of "you don't say orange around an Irishmen", like you don't say MacBeth in a Theater.

You're probably right -- sorry if you didn't mean to be taken literally, Peaches-n-Cream.

And on this most Irish of days, AlphaFrog, you managed to bring up "the Scottish play." :D I'll trust you weren't posting from inside a theatre. If you were (or even if you weren't -- bad luck can come anywhere), well "Angels and ministers of grace defend [you]."

No, I really don't think falling off a stage sounds like much fun to me - that's what happened to everyone who mentioned "The Scottish Play" in our theatre in highschool.

What an interesting thread. I didn't know most of this stuff.

I like the story of the phrase " The luck of the Irish". I have to work tonight so unfortunately I get to drive home with all of the drunks tonight.

Some of you may know that every year, the Chicago River is dyed green for St Patrick's Day. Well, a few minutes ago I learned that they use orange pigment to dye the Chicago River green. I never knew that, but thought it was ironic.

The "real" :) Irish flag is these colors. We are flying ours today. It is green flag with a gold harp and gold tassles. It reads "Erin go Bragh." A lot of Irish nationalists only recognize this flag, not the politically correct green, white, and orange flag.

For more on the flags...

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/irishflag1.html

FYI, here's some more historical info on The Green Flag.

And RedRose SAI, ROTFL!

ditto!

I wore green Friday, but was actually considering wearing a bit of orange because I'm just a confusion! I am Catholic, lived in Ireland but my ancestry is VERY Protestant (my maternal grandmother brought in the Catholic - everyone else was Protestant) and of English and Scottish ancestry (with Scandanavian and Eastern European for good measure!).

Sarah

When I was at lunch yesterday, the waitress had on an orange polo as part of her uniform. I complimented her on her bravery, and the poor thing didn't understand. My Irish ancestory is green, but I'm not Catholic. I wear the green in honor of my ancestory, not my religion.

I'm keeping out of the whole fish bit, except to repeat what two of my pastors (one former, one current) have said: If you're living a life in which Christ is the foremost of your thoughts throughout the year, giving up anything for Lent is a meaningless gesture.

I usually eat fish on Fridays if I'm out, more because I don't know the religiosity of the cooks/servers than because of a moral obligation.

I can tell you it's very un-advisable to wear orange up here (or at least around the downtown and school) on St. Patrick's Day... and yet every year some of the Orage Order get together and do just that on St. Patrick's Day or at the parade (which will be tomorrow). While it's okay to wear the colors or flag or a county, it is generally viewed as very poor taste to wear just orange for the sake of it...

I had lunch at Congee Star on Friday, and the servers there wear orange shirts. I wanted to say something, but I don't think they'd get it.

I personally can't stand fish so our family either eats cheese pizza or cheese ravioli. Not much of a sacrifice.;)

Ok, so for a little clarification (I'm Catholic and went to Catholic schools from K through college)

Really old rules: Fast everyday throughout Lent (except Sundays) and no meat throughout either. This is why Mardi Gras (Fat Tuesday) was so important, because they had to use up all the food that wouldn't last the 40 days.

Older Rules (pre-Vatican II): No meat throughout Lent (except on Sundays), fast each Friday during lent and Ash Wednesday and abstain from meat on Fridays during the rest of the year.

Current Rules: Fast only on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. Abstain from meat on Fridays during Lent (though the rest of the year is recommended as well). Also recommend sacrificing in some way during Lent such as giving up something you like (coffee in the morning) or doing something for others (volunteering your Saturdays to a cause).

To recap: most Catholics today will eat fish on Fridays (and Ash Wednesday), "give something up" for Lent (more and more often now it's "doing something" for Lent) and fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.


Phew...
I learned stuff in school :p

The green vs. orange is interesting. I wore orange on Friday to work, but only because I don't own a dressy green shirt and I was at the end of my wardrobe.. I hadn't heard about the meaning for that... guess i'll have to be more careful next time! :)

Drolefille does clarify a lot. But it also depends on what part of the country you are from. I'm catholic and to me (well my whole family) no meat means no pork or red meat. We have always had chicken and fish on fridays. Some of my friends do the same and others have absolutely no meat.

And many families have their own traditions as well, some do not "skip" Sundays for example. I think technically a bishop would disagree that chicken is allowed, but that's not the point. It's that it's a sacrifice.

We make little sacrifices in remembrance of the huge one that Jesus made... and it's also usually a betterment of self thing as well. Over Lent people will often promise to exercise more, or give up chocolate/snacks. I think it's a positive thing all around.

:)

I think some people don't understand the "skipping" of Sundays. It is because the Sundays technically are not part of Lent, as each Sunday of the liturgical year is a "little Easter." Despite that, I have always abstained from whatever I gave up for Lent even on Sundays, because otherwise the sacrifice is too minimal. I could give up anything for a week.

Also, I agree that the chicken thing is probably not related to your part of the country, but rather is a misinterpretation of the rule. However, I agree with Drolefile that if your heart is in the right place, it is all good.

I grew up not "skipping" Sundays but have started simply because my boyfriend does and otherwise he's mocking me as he drinks a soda. I've given up pretty much anything bad for me... chocolate, soda, desserts, etc and I've cut WAY back on fast food. It's kind of like the diet recommendations that say don't deprive yourself, give yourself little rewards. This way I don't break down one day and pig out, because I can wait til Sunday, and then I often find I don't want it nearly as bad...

Lent does wonders for my self control. They should move it to New Year's and I might keep my resolutions :)

Wow! I grew up in Boston (wicked Catholic), moved to Pittsburgh (somewhat), moved to Louisville (anti-Catholic!!!!!)...flashforward to the Greater DC area (at least my priest happens to be from New England). Only fish cut it in my parents' house until the advent of cheese based dishes. Chicken was definitely a meat!

Funny that you say Pittsburgh is only somewhat Catholic. My pastor says that so many Catholics live in Pittsburgh, they should build a theme park! And yet a full third of our congregation is made up of former Catholics.

The fish rule never made sense to me. As a Catholic from a family of Catholics, neither I, nor my family ever really cared about the no fish on Fridays thing.

I'm pretty sure that I'll still be able to go to Heaven.