Homosexuals in BGLOs
 

My follow-up book to African American Fraternities and Sororities: The Legacy and the Vision (www.legacyandvision.com) will also feature a chapter--based on a qualitative study--on homosexuals in BGLO fraternities. If you would like to share your thoughts--confidentially--on this issue, please visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alan_DeSantis/

Your comments will only be sent to the main researcher on the project, and your name and organizational affiliation will not appear in the book.

Thanks!

Gregory Parks, PhD

No offense DOC....however, I wish researchers would not waist time on such a topic. Why not research success stories related to our continued service to the community? Why not highlight certain national projects that have made a huge difference in the community or with individuals.

If they do a chapter on homosexual Greeks...they might as well include a chapter on Greeks that commit adultery, or Greeks who fornicate, or Greeks who lie alot...or Greeks who beat their wives....seems like useless info.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...t=64216&page=2


again, i'm going to be the dissenting voice...

Mr. 21,
I think I see where u are going...BUT

Even though people "claim" they would not vote an openly gay person in their organizations, it still doesn't make it worthy for research.

I wouldn't vote an ex-con in my frat or a wife beater or a drug user for that matter but neither of those groups are worthy of research or publicity.

Gays in BGLOs: A Response
 

Thanks for the commentary about what is and is not worthy of study with regards to BGLOs. Let me comment. If you look at my last book and my blog, which lays out the next one, you will see that the success stories are and will be told--community service, philanthropy, civic action, role in international affairs.... But are we so one dimensional that all we can talk about is how wonderful we are? As a scholar and one who hopes other scholars will take the study of our groups seriously, I can't paint a one-sided picture--mainly because it is inaccurate. Also, however, if someone does not bring serious issues with which we wrestle to the fore, we will never effectively address them.

On another note, to say that since I address homosexuality in the book, I should also address lying, stealing, fornication, etc... is false logic. I addressed date rape, substance abuse, and hazing (all crimes) in the last book. However, I don't think I need to address homicide, pedophilia, and extortion among BGLOs. The issue for me is what are relevant issues for BGLOs, and what topics are currently researched re: fraternities and sororities generally, and how does that research relate to BGLOs.

The issues that the chapter addrssses is are a lot broader than simply why members won't vote gay members into their chapters. I wouldn't tackle a topic so narrow. I edited the chapter last week, and it says a lot about the stereotypes associated with several of the fraternities, notions about black manhood, hip hop culture, etc...

Seeing will be believing.

Dr. Gregory Parks

oh well hell, lol...i wasn't commenting on whether or not it was research worthy....i just figured it was more discourse on gays in bglo's (which in itself is an overdone topic).

but i think the topic gays in bglo's" is research worthy. if it's worthy doing research for gays in the military, then it is for bglo's. fraternity life is "macho" in itself.....and homos go against the grain in that fashion.

homosexuality (as opposed to cheating/womanizing, ect.) is one of those things that people do not really overlook or let "slide" very often, thus it is an issue when one tries to get down. not that it's right, but that's just how it is.

if i was doing the book, would i add it? probably not, because the reasons i listed in my previous post. but would i say that it's worthless info? not necessarily.

I was responding to Solomon. Starang21, I'm not sure what you mean when you say it is an overdone topic.

and i wasn't quoting you. and it's an overdone topic, IMO. do a search and see how many hits you get on this site alone.

If I do a google search, I can find out a lot about stepping, hazing/pledging/MIP, national programs of the groups, but none of it is a scholarly inquiry. Nonoe of it is substantive. That is my interst--my niche. I'm on tons of list-serves and groups. Lots of heated debate takes place about a lot re BGLOs. I rarely respond to the dialogue unless some comment is directed at me or my work. I'm not interested in the excessive back and forth on-line. I am interested in what various scholars can seriously mine with regards to our groups. Opinions don't amount to scholarship, and the one great thing about scholarship is that it can broadly address an issue with some degree of objectivity.

Nough said on my part with regards to this issue.

didn't say anything about google. check THIS site. this issue has been discussed often before, whether suitable for research or not. if you feel that it's not beneficial to you or your research, hey...whatever, no sweat off of my back. you're the one coming to a message board for "research" and asking people to provide their opinions. if you want "scholars" to respond, stick to people who have the same research topic you have. we're all expressing our opinions on this site and would hardly call ourselves "experts" and "objective."

I asked folks who are willing to share ideas with someone who will and can put those ideas in context. As for this and other sites, they are great to hash out ideas. But I'm not sure just because some topic has been discussed at great length in a chat room it means it shouldn't be subjected to some critical analysis in another context. If that is the case, we would rule out a lot of BGLO topics from study. I certainly don't think that, despite this being a great site, just because folks talk about an issue at length on here, researchers shouldn't take up the topic.

The last chapter of the book will deal with why it will be so difficult to have a serious group of scholars looking at our groups. Unlike most areas of scholarship, BGLO research will largely be scrutinized by non-academics/members. Members have a whole different set of expectations about what "good" research is--e.g., hasn't been discussed on chat rooms, only deals with the positive side of the organizations, etc.... But like you, no sweat off my back. This research is only a hobby for me. I only want to make sure that these organizations are around 50 years from now by providing hard answers to hard questions. Oh well, I guess some can appreciate that; others can't.

no, but i would hardly call a message board somewhere you can find "expert or critical" analysis. you yourself said "I'm not interested in the excessive back and forth on-line" but by coming to a message board, that is EXACTLY what you're going to get. whether or not the back and forth is suitable for research...that's for you to decide, it's your dissertation. check my 2nd post in this thread, i even said that your topic was a valid topic of research...so i'm confused as to exactly what this exchange is about.

i never said anything about the topic being good or not, whether it is or it isn't is completely irrelevant and pointless to me, because that's not my field of study. it's easy to ask for hard answers to hard questions, but don't get discouraged or pissy when the answers you get aren't the ones you want.

I believe I asked folks to respond to an online survey, not on this site. Those are two different things. I didn't ask for back and forth. If that was the case, I simply would have jumped on list-serves and quoted the comments people made. That's not what was done. Also, I'm not working on a dissertation. I'm working on a book, again, two different things. I'm equally confused about this exchange since I told you I intially was responding to Solomon. You responded again, so I felt obliged to clarify what you seemd confused about, and the cycle continues.

Lastly, I am not nor would I get "pissy" over responses to questions for a few reasons. First, I was not soliciting information on this site. I asked folks to join another, private list-serve, to respond to a few questions. Whatever information folks provided on the list-serve prior to or since then is not included in the research. Second, I have no preconceived notion of what the answers will or should be. Third, I didn't write the chapter. I edit the entire book and write certain portions. Other chapters are written by scholars from other disciplines. Therefore, I am not overly worked up over what is said in any one chapter. Fourth, the chapter was written as of three weeks ago, so whatever is said in this dialogue is irrelevant in as much as the book is concerned.

well, with this being said...good luck on the book and i look forward to reading it.

Interesting. It took me until now to view this thread (and only now, because I have insomnia so I am reading everything,) because my reaction to the title was "not this debate again." So I see where Starang is coming from about it bein overdone. So it is possible, Dr. Parks, that you may have missed a lot of input, because the thread title was ambiguous about the true intent of the thread.

I'd like to cosign that and extend it to

Anyone who has a good heart, a sense of pride in what he or she lives for and a strong character for service in ANY GLO... Everything else is just gravy.

It's not that simple, especially when the pride associated with being an out-the-closet homosexual is considered shameful by heterosexuals.

Being gay isn't just what you do in the bedroom. Straight people convince themselves of that in an effort to be pseudo-tolerant. Gay people concince themselves of that because of self-hatred and shame. Being gay is about love (something straight Greeks bring to the table when wearing their wedding band or talking about a date), a social life (differences in where one might club), political activism and social action (gay black pride festivals), and other nuanced differences between straight and gay people which makes us different, yet equal in the eyes of brotherhood (in my opinion).

I think if we took the same attitude that you expressed above, we wouldn't need chapters like Dr. Parks'. But we do, because of the virulent homophobia that is rampant in black fraternities. Perhaps this chapter will get conversation going -- a much needed dialogue between people who are really about brotherhood.

I really do hear what you are saying in essence, though.

Great post and you are absolutely right (I stand corrected) being gay is not just what you do in the bedroom. Forgive me if you took offense, it was a call to stop putting labels on HUMAN BEINGS. Yes, being gay (openly) in a traditional black fraternity is a taboo. A taboo that may never be resigned. A mindset carried over from society, in general. Although I applaud Dr. Parks for wanting to bring it to the forefront, it must, essentially, start in the frat houses. Brothers must interact (socially, politically, economically, mentally *and all of the other 'allys'. LOL*) with (openly gay) brothers as equal men.

As a straight man, my perception would not have changed from reading a book; however, my perception of gays did change when two sisters, an older aunt and a male cousin 'came out of the closet'. Maybe I am bias, because it was family that made my attitude change, probably, but I know I have been a supporter of gay rights ever since. I even marched in a gay pride parade in NYC with some gay friends. It felt weird (being honest), but empowering to stand up for a right that really do not directly effect me.

Yes, society forces us to view each other differently; should WE, personally, view each other differently with rigid labels? I hope not. My rose-colored glasses do see when WE as human beings will not separate love, social life, political activism and social action into categories of people's choices.

Now, to play both sides of the fence, I do have problems (being honest) with men who over exaggerate (negative) women characteristics. Please do not get me wrong here. I am not talking about men who know they are men but have subtle feminine traits. Cool, no problem. I am talking about the men who switch very hard, flailing their arms around to get attention, neck rolling and sucking teeth all characteristics that are demeaning and negative for even women to have. The same goes for the women who go to extremes to act hard and masculine right down to the grabbing of the crotch. What is that about? LMAO. I have problems with men grabbing their crotch while talking to me so you can imagine my dismay when women do it.

Brother Rashid, as always, your words and thoughts are well needed and heeded. I truly enjoy all of your posts in GC and clicking onto your website.
The Old (Guilded) Gold is great, but you need alittle bit more Charcoal Brown up in the gallery. LMAO. Just joking bruh. Peace and blessings to you and anyone who can take something away from this reply.
Luv is Luv.
Sonny

To the men of Iota Phi Theta, is it okay for an Iota man to represent his fraternity on a sex site? Does it violate any rules? Example: posting a picture of a Centaur as your profile picture with the word IOTA next to it. What if it's a gay site?

All other orgs can answer too. I specifically geared this towards the Iotas for personal reasons.

This is a very good post, because it's not just in the bedroom, and I don't think we (straight or gay) always realize that. It's a lifestyle, and the examples you gave were perfect. I don't always want to go to the club with my gay girlfriends because I might want to talk to straight men that night. Or, I notice that the pride festival is a big event for them every year, (and I guess for me too, because I usually go with them, lol). Even little things like how friendships are formed and maintained are just different. So you're right, it's not just in the bedroom, and you saying it was enlightening.

Frat and friends... forgive me if i offend anyone that is not my intention however i will let MY youth and MY zeal for Iota Phi Theta speak now...

I dont like the idea of homosexual men in my fraternity. Call it biased, call it closed minded, call it what you will. The 12 founders as i've been taught were family men... with wives and some with children. Two men cant have children. Above and beyond that, being a Christian man i dont feel that its appropriate or fair to include that lifestyle in the representation of MY organization. I do not speak for or in place of any member of Iota nor do i feel that my opinion is what a national officer would give HOWEVER i'm voicing what i feel within me as other individuals have so profoundly done. I see no need to hide behind being "PC" nor do i feel the need to sugarcoat my take on the matter. I know a few homosexual men who are very active and upstanding individuals in their respective communities... they are open about their stance and yet dont parade it as such. One in particular is a choir director at a church. Do i find it ironic yes, but thats between him, his god, and his soul. I dont judge gay men i just dont feel they belong in Iota Phi Theta fraternity inc.

Its 2006, give it a break already, LOL....
 

This is in no way to offend anyone, I'm clearly giving you another point of view on the situation. Only God can Judge me!!!!

Wow! Now for us to say we would not take homosexuals into any orgainzation is discrimimation. Although I do not agree with homosexuality, I accept them for who they are. Men and women that work hard for whatever they believe in. I have many homosexual, hetrosexual, white, black, hispanic, latino, jewish, asian, african, female and male freinds. I do not see color, height, weight, dysfunciton, or anything else in a person therefore I do not and will not discriminate. I do not care about race, religion, sexuality, what school you went to, where you live what diffence is gonna make on your impact in whatever Fraternity or Sorrority you maybe apart of when it comes to service of the community.

To speak on the websites, some things are very out of order. i.e. Girls Gone Wild Sorrority Edition.

I feel you want some scholarly works to research, find out why certian members of fraternities and sorrorities do not graduate from college? Why do sorrorities and fraternities promote underage drinking? Or you can do a comparision on graduation rates to drop-out rates in all fraternities and sorrorities? Or you can find out do is binge drinking related to fraternity or sorrority life? I can go on forever with the research questions but this is not the place for it.

Although I am hetrosexual I feel that you researching this topic is pointless, and anyone in their right mind would not look at it twice. I welcome all comments and leave with something to think about. This is not about be open minded but not trying passing judgment on people based race, religion, or sexual orientation.