Advice to rushers: re: legacies
 

I know that sorority membership is one of mutual selection, but I would like to offer some advice. When rushing legacies, please remember that they can be a special part of your sorority. I know it is not possible to keep all legacies, nor should you if it is not a good fit. However, keep in mind that these girls probably grew up with lots of "aunts" and have some kind of connection to your glo. They have mothers and grandmothers who would love to have the chance to share the experience with them. Try to think ahead to the future and how you would feel if your daughter was cut from your sorority. Many of you will have the chance to watch your own daughter go through rush some day and you will want her experience to parallel your own. Having my mother at my initiation was an experience I will never forget. Good luck to the chapters with spring rush!

Re: Advice to rushers: re: legacies
 

I agree wholeheartedly. One of the most special days of my life was hearing the news that my bio. sister was going to be my Kappa sister albeit at a different chapter in a different state. I was at her initiation. I have a lot of good friends whose daughters are going through spring recruitment right now and there is nothing more crushing than to hear that your own organization didn't "like" your daughter enough.

Re: Advice to rushers: re: legacies
 

Exactly...........

It's a mutual decision and not one that the alumna can (or should) influence. Just because the member thinks that the legacy is wonderul doesn't mean she really is.

Don't discount a legacy, but also don't take one just because she's a legacy......

The key word HAS to be "mutual".

We've had legacies who didn't like us. We've had legacies who didn't fit in. We've had other sororities' legacies who loved us, not their legacy chapter.

The best analogy I can think of right now is that yes, you do want your biological sister become your sorority sister. But she may have different ideas. I love my brother, but would never fit into the same GLO as he.

Give each legacy the respect she deserves, and the chance she deserves - and let her do the same. No one should be guilt tripped into joining XYZ because it's her legacy chapter.

One of my good friends in my chapter is a legacy to another sorority at my school. The other sorority is very similar to mine; a lot of girls who pref us also pref them. Anyway, my friend's sister only graduated a few years ago, and she is from Morgantown, so she still knows some girls currently in the chapter. My friend told me that while her sister was slightly disappointed she didn't go with her chapter, she respected her choice and understood why she wanted to go with the chapter she fit into the most.

The only other girl in my family who went Greek is my cousin, who was an ADpi at Gettysburg College, so I've never dealt with any legacy situations or anything. However my chapter's personal policy is to offer all legacies a bid, which I don't always agree with. We have a few legacies who are not active at all in the chapter and I feel like they would've had a much better sorority experience if they'd joined a chapter where they felt comfortable, versus one they may have been pressured to join.

Just because a girl is a legacy does NOT mean that she's a good fit for the chapter.

All sororities have special policies regarding legacies. But none of them REQUIRE that they give a legacy a bid.

There are plenty of non-legacies who have fantastic things to offer a sorority. If a legacy can't keep up with and compete with them, then why should a legacy get a bid over a nonlegacy?

There are plenty of legacies out there who don't know the first thing about being in a sorority; not all of them have this "special" connection already with the group through their mom, sister or grandmother. There are ones that do, great, but there are plenty that do not.

Bottom line is that legacies are given special treatment in the form of extra consideration. Usually a courtesy invite back to the first invite round and some groups say if a legacy goes to a pref party they must be on the first bid list. BUT, the legacy has to be just as impressive in their own right.

I'm not sure what other treatment you think a legacy should get.

I'm sure your daughter is wonderful. But the point is, not all legacies are wonderful and not all are a good fit for a particular chapter. Little Debbie Daughter may not be as wonderful and well qualified as her mom thinks and may not make a good XYZ. Debbie may also not want to join her mom's group- maybe she just doesn't get along with them or think they'd be a good fit for her. So mothers/grandmothers/sisters, DON'T PRESSURE YOUR LEGACY INTO JOINING YOUR GROUP. It may not be the best fit for her.

I would like to hear from alumnae who have had daughters go through the process. I followed the Carnation stories of her many daughters, but I don't think she had a daughter who attended a school that had her GLO.

The rush process can be vicious. Girls get cut for a variety of reasons, some of them shallow. Being a legacy should not give the girl an automatic bid, but it should be more than being invited back to second round.

Throughout one's life, connections grant you an extra look. Whether it's from your alma mater, your club affiliations, your family, nepotism and cronyism are still very much alive in today's society.

In my OP, I wasn't advocating for any special treatment for my own child-my daughter is rushing at a school where they don't have a PiPhi chapter, I was just expressing my feelings- it has been one year since my mother died and I was feeling a little nostalgic and missing her. Sharing initiation with her is a special memory that I am blessed to have.

i would like to reword what washrinserepeat and alum stated. those of us with daughters don't expect SPECIAL treatment for our legacies. we hope that they will get FAIR treatment.

we hope that the decision to join their legacy sorority is in their hands, and that they are not cut from their legacy chapter BECAUSE they are a legacy. we also hope that the other sororities on their campuses will not assume that they will want to join their legacy chapter and drop them like a hot potato. we just want them to have a fair chance.

i have friends in most of the npc sororities. all of us have heard of chapters within our organizations that seem to "go gunning" for legacies. that is not anymore fair than offering a legacy a bid just because she is a legacy.

i would imagine that there is the occasion when a mother/grandmother/sister/aunt does push their legacy to join their sorority, without regard to the fit or the wishes of the legacy. however, the majority of us just want our daughters to be happy. that is so much more important than being able to call our daughter our sister.

Well put FSUZeta!

Personally, I'm glad that the chapter I was a legacy to did not offer me a bid. They invited me back several times even though it was obvious from the get-go that it wasn't the best house for me, and since I was a little afraid to cut them because I didn't want to hurt my sisters' feelings, I kept going back thinking maybe I'd like it better once I got to know the members a little more. They were nice girls and a "top" chapter on campus, don't get me wrong, it just definitely was not my first choice. I was soooo relieved when they finally released me right before Pref! It would've really sucked if the other chapters had just assumed that since I was a legacy I would pledge there, because DZ was a much better match for me. So while I think it's fine for legacies to get a "courtesy invite" after first round, that should be it--if, after that point, the chapter doesn't think she'd fit in, she should be released so that there's room in her schedule for houses that are better for her.

I think you handled this situation really well. My grandlittle came through rush this year and had a best friend in another sorority on campus. She preffed us and her best friend's sorority, and I can see her totally fitting into both. She told our girl preffing her that she liked us more but she felt like she was betraying her friend if she chose Alpha Phi, and she had mentioned it to her friend, who didn't really seem too keen on telling her otherwise. Our girl preffing her had to work hard to convince her to do the sorority that was right for her, and if the other girl REALLY is a true friend, she will understand.
My grandlittle chose us, she makes a great addition to my family and our chapter as a whole, AND she's still good friends with her best friend before recruitment.

I know this isn't the point of your story, but it really struck me...

Do you mean that she mentioned it to her friend during a rush party? Otherwise, she shouldn't have been talking about this with her friend during rush, unless your campus has different rules about dirty rushing. This seems to be one of the very scenarios that the silence rules were put in place to avoid.

I know I've posted this somewhere on GC before but...

I have mixed feelings about the legacy deal. On the one hand, a legacy may not be a good fit. I've known some who weren't; I remember that my chapter lived in fear that one particular sister's younger sister would rush.:eek:

However, I'm a mom now and that changes things a LOT. None of my daughters have rushed at schools with Pi Phi chapters but if Pi Phi ever does cut one of my younger daughters, I will be devastated. I have seen the devastation of many moms, especially those whose daughters are at UGa, when their chapters cut their daughters. Matter of fact, we know a lot of those moms and we don't know one girl who has gotten into her legacy chapter at Georgia. It's like legacies don't count anymore.

We have had the pain of one daughter not getting into her legacy chapter--her sisters' sorority but on another campus. I anticipated that would happen, though, and prepared her and luckily she was fine with it because she found another home that she loves. But what if she hadn't? And furthermore, we were told later by people we knew in other sororities that she was cut by their sororities solely because she was a double legacy to her sisters' group, so she could have easily been left out in the cold.
:(

I don't think anyone can appreciate the pain of a legacy not making it into her legacy group until their daughter or sister rushes.

This comment really jumped out at me because I was just talking about this not too long ago with my family. I'm guessing legacies used to "matter" a lot more than they do now, because when my parents were in school being a legacy was almost like a free ticket in. What bothers me is that they think things still work this way, and my younger sister has grown up hearing that since she's a legacy to two houses (one through me, and one through our older sisters) she'll have an easy time getting into one of them. I just hope that if she does eventually rush, she won't end up disappointed...

I think we have to stress to our daughters that our own group may not want her, which is a shame. Carnation almost had it easier with her girls not going where PiPhi was....

it is up to us to explain the legacy policy to our legacy. that way they go in knowing that there are no guarantees. if they are invited back past the courteous invite, it is most likely because they are liked for themselves, not just because they are a legacy.

Likewise, it is just as important to let the legacy know she should choose where feels most comfortable, even if it is not her legacy chapter. She shouldn't feel obligated to keep going back, or pledge, just for the sake of her sister, mother, grandmother, if she knows that's not where she belongs.

I think it would be difficult to hear that a daughter or sister was not wanted by a chapter, but if they attend schools so many years apart, the chapter might be totally different by then and the daughter/sister may not find the chapter to be a good match. Either way, I think that houses should be more clear and up front with their legacy rules ( because it does vary from school to school) so that the legacies can be prepared.

I do think that legacies should at least get one courtesy invite back because it is espcially crushing for them if they get rejected. I do not however, believe that they should be automatically in either.

I'm not sure if she mentioned it to her friend during a rush party or not. Actually, that's never even occured to me but it's a good point. My campus has the policy that sisters aren't allowed to talk to PNMs at all during recruitment, whether it's about rush or not (unless there's a rare case where you're in a study group with a sister and you must talk to her for school). I don't think her friend was necessarily trying to dirty rush her (I know the girl too, we all lived on the same floor freshman year, and she doesn't seem like the type) but probably just really emphasizing that she wanted her to be her sister? I'm not sure.
Even if it was a case of dirty rushing, I don't think my sorority would've mentioned it to Panehellenic. The other sorority is probably the one we're closest with on campus, so we probably wouldn't have done anything about it - plus, we got the girl we wanted. :D

Exactly - she might go to the chapter and say "I can't stand these girls, but my mom wants me here so bad" and end up with a crappy sorority experience because she thought that.

Well, like I said, guys...I pretty much thought the way y'all do until my daughters rushed and then it's a whole new ball game. Picture how you'll feel if your daughter is cut from your sorority. You probably won't be thinking she would be a better fit elsewhere.

And she won't be thinking that either in the heat of recruitment. She'll be thinking that it was pretty obvious that they didn't want her if they dropped her as soon as possible--i.e., right after second parties.

I know there are moms reading this whose daughters were cut from their sororities and my heart goes out to you.

I'd want my daughter to be happy, no matter what house she did or did not get into. That would matter to me more than anything.

I wouldn't want her to go into a house that she didn't like just b/c she was a legacy. She likely wouldn't be happy, because she didn't like the house.

I wouldn't want her to get strung along by a house and given more than one courtesy invite, when the house really didn't think she was a good fit and then cut her right before prefs. I've seen numerous complaints in threads on here about houses continuing to give invites to women that they didn't intend to pref or give a bid to just so that their parties look full, etc. Then that girl gets her hopes up and gets crushed even more. If a house does not think a woman is a good fit, then don't invite them back. Give other houses a chance to get to know her, and let her get to know other houses she may fit into better.

I wouldn't want her to receive a bid to a house just because she was a legacy if the sisters didn't think she was a good fit outside of the fact that she was a legacy. Who wants to go somewhere where you weren't really wanted?

My daughter's happiness will matter more than whether she joins KD or XYZ or doesn't go greek at all.

Regardless of whether or not someone is a legacy, rush is, and has been, MUTUAL SELECTION.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kddani
[B]I'd want my daughter to be happy, no matter what house she did or did not get into. That would matter to me more than anything.

I wouldn't want her to go into a house that she didn't like just b/c she was a legacy. She likely wouldn't be happy, because she didn't like the house.

I wouldn't want her to get strung along by a house and given more than one courtesy invite, when the house really didn't think she was a good fit and then cut her right before prefs.

I wouldn't want her to receive a bid to a house just because she was a legacy if the sisters didn't think she was a good fit outside of the fact that she was a legacy. Who wants to go somewhere where you weren't really wanted?

My daughter's happiness will matter more than whether she joins KD or XYZ or doesn't go greek at all. [QUOTE]

What has been happening to legacies in the big schools here is that, due to the heavy cuts now required, often among the first to go are girls who are legacies to other groups--especially double legacies or more--the sororities are saying, 'Why waste a space on someone who will surely go to her sister's/mother's sorority?" They get cut by their legacy house and most others early in recruitment, leaving them nowhere to go. I can think of at least 8 PNMs to whom that happened this past fall.

I want my daughters to be happy too. That's why I hope that they don't get cut heavily in rush, because that's devastating to most girls around here who rush; it's a huge ego blow. Your standard 18-year-old won't be thinking, "Okay, I got cut by 14 groups out of 16, let's regroup and see who really wants me." She'll probably be so torn up and shocked that she drops out of recruitment, especially if everyone around her has had a positive recruitment.

Last year, 2 PNMs we know chose not to put their legacy status on their applications. I understand why.

I'm afraid that's how I would feel about a daughter. I think I would be WAY emotional about her being cut from my sorority. I would be more "that's my baby you think isn't good enough for you", instead of being rational. It might sound wrong, it might sound idealistic, but I'm definitely one of those "don't you dare hurt one of mine!" people!

What has been happening to legacies in the big schools here is that, due to the heavy cuts now required, often among the first to go are girls who are legacies to other groups--especially double legacies or more--the sororities are saying, 'Why waste a space on someone who will surely go to her sister's/mother's sorority?" They get cut by their legacy house and most others early in recruitment, leaving them nowhere to go. I can think of at least 8 PNMs to whom that happened this past fall.

[/B][/QUOTE]

while the origional intent of this thread was a message to chapters about its legacies, i think it is important for other chapters not to discount a legacy with the expectation that she will go to her legacy house.

carnation,
did there seem to be a difference for women you mentioned who were legacies to multiple chapters on campus vs women who were a legacy to only one chapter on campus vs the women who were double legacies to one chapter?

It's a shame that legacies are feeling a need to deny their legacy status because they are afraid of being cut by the sororities they're not a legacy to. :(

I'm reminded of one of my chapter sisters, a fellow founder of my chapter. Her aunt is an AEPhi. The aunt would not allow her daughters to attend any college where there wasn't a chapter of AEPhi. Not one of them actually went AEPhi. The aunt was, of course, disappointed, but I'd like to think her daughters were happy with their decisions - they followed their hearts, and their hearts led them to other sororities. Still, the aunt had her moment - she flew out for our initiation and gave her badge to her niece. (AEPhi does not consider nieces to be legacies.)

I hope that any hypothetical future daughter of mine follows her heart. If she joins AEPhi, great - I'll be at her initiation and proudly pin her with my badge. If not, I will be happy for her as long as she's happy with her decision. If she's cut from AEPhi, yes, I will be annoyed, but it means it wasn't meant to be.

The problem is that, sometimes, when a legacy rushes, there are erroneous expectations all around.

- A legacy has to understand that the courtesy invite to 2nd round is a courtesy to her mother (or whoever) and that she might not get invited back for the next round.
- A legacy has to understand that if the chapter invites her back beyond the courtesy invite, it's because the chapter wants her for who she is, not just because she's a legacy.
- The chapter she's a legacy to has to understand that just because she's a legacy doesn't mean she's a good fit.
- The chapters she's not a legacy to have to understand that she's not automatically going to go to her mother's sorority, and that they're not necessarily wasting a space by inviting her back.
- The mother has to understand that just because she was a good fit for XYZ at University A in 1995, doesn't mean her daughter will be a good fit for XYZ at University B in 2025.
- EVERYONE has to understand that legacy status does NOT guarantee a bid from the legacy sorority!

Absolutely, a sorority should (and is required to) give a legacy special consideration, but if she's not a good fit, she's not a good fit.

Let's see. Four of these girls were legacies to one chapter--all of their mothers were members of those chapters on the campuses where their daughters rushed. Two were double legacies to one chapter. Two were legacies to 2 chapters on campus.

And every girl, although she was attractive and had tons of activities and was popular in high school, was cut not only by her legacy sorority(ies) but also most of the rest of them after second parties. Four went Greek (although 2 had to COB) and four didn't.

I understand the intent of the new release figures but it's been hell on legacies.

If the release figures are wreaking this same havoc on more than one campus, then maybe the NPC should check into it. Granted, many more women are going to college now than say, 50 years ago, but there either IS a legacy system or there isn't!

It's too bad there is not a way that only the legacy house would get notified if a PNM was a legacy and not the other GLOs. Somewhat on a need to know basis. Since so many recruitments now have computerized registrations, this doesn't seem like a terribly difficult thing to program. And yes if the PNM is a legacy to 2 different groups, then each group would know about themselves being a leg. but not about the other.

People would still find out - at recruitment they'll ask "so why do you want to be in a sorority? was anyone in your family in a sorority?"

This is how things work at Mizzou I believe but it always comes out anyway... chapters are so big that someone knows the PNM from high school and knows her family or knows she has an in-house sister somewhere. It seems in most situations that the chapters will know if a PNM is a legacy regardless of whether or not they are given that information with registration.

well, say that a legacy is going across the country to college and will be participating in a traditional, competitive , southern rush. literally noone knows the girl on campus. would anyone suggest that she leave the sorority affiliation blank on her recruitment app.?

she would have recs. to all of the houses, including her legacy house.

what if she has several legacy houses? say her mom in one, her grandmother in another, one sister in a third and one sister in a fourth? do you think that that would make a difference to the chapters? do you think that she would still be considered a risk to all those legacy houses or to the non-legacy houses?

No, what I'm saying is that the computer program would let the the Theta house that the PNM is a double legacy through a grand-mother and sister at Theta and the Kappa house would be told the PNM is a Kappa legacy through her mother. The Greek Office would see the overall printout but not the individual non-legacy group.

In terms of talking during rounds, I'm not sure how that could be addressed.

i believe that the university of central florida makes enough copies to equal the number of chapters on campus, and they manually cover up the legacy affiliation if it does not apply to that particular chapter.

maybe adpiucf or ztangel could expand on this?

To play devil's advocate a little...

One point of keeping a legacy around could be money. If you cut a member's daughter, grand-daughter, or sister, I would guess that the chances of that alumna giving money to your chapter or your GLO have gone down the tubes. (Not every alumna would react that way, but it would be hard to know which ones would.)

I'm just speculating though, not speaking from experience.

well, i CAN speak from experience. I advised a chapter when i lived in oklahoma, and the exact thing happened. zeta alums daughter pledged another house, and zeta alum would have nothing to do with the zeta collegiate chapter or alumnae chapter after that. she was quite nasty when i called to invite her to an alumnae event, and i had never even met the woman.