Lying CEOs......
 

Following the heartbreaking news at the mine in W. VA...

hope those mine owners get sued hardcore....

What exactly would they be sued for? miscommunication?

Plus the mine has had over 200+ safety violations since that company took over.

I doubt that any official of the company involved knowingly lied to the public, the media or the families.

I think we will find out that this was a tragic situation where something was misunderstood and got out of control.

I'm sure they will sue over the violations and whether or not it was safe to reopen the mines after the holidays. The mine was just cited for violations after an inspection that ended on Dec 22.

Im not sure of all the facts, but Im sure with them saying they are going to sue its because there are a lot of emotions involved right now.

I'm sure there will be some sort of lawsuit, by at least one family. Many of them may be too grief-stricken to care. I think what happened was a crew member thought all the miners had been recovered and called to tell a waiting friend down at the church. Word spread, and well the outcome is all over the news. :(

Whether or not there is a lawsuit is often dependent on how well the company takes care of the families after the tragedy.

In this litigious society, you just know someone will sue. The company can pay for funerals, trust funds for the kids & widows, etc, etc - but that won't be enough for some people.

In my heart, I'm agreeing with Delt Alum. I highly doubt that this roller coaster of emotions was caused purposely.

It for sure was not on purpose, but already one woman has said she will sue on tv. Of course, emotions are running high so I guess we'll see.

As DeltAlum said, I don't think that anyone purposely gave false information to the miners' families.

From the news reports I've seen, the rescuers sent word that they had located the other 12 miners and were checking for vital signs. Someone took that to mean that they were alive and made a too-quick announcement. I think what made it worse is that, although those "in the know" found out within about 20 minutes that the first report wasn't 100% accurate, they waited 3 hours before telling the families that the first bit of info might not have been correct. So, for three hours, those folks were rejoicing in the news that their loved ones had survived. That's the really agonizing part to me.

I'm not a sue-happy person by any means, but I do think that those families have a right to sue the pants off that company -- not for the "miscommunication" but for the unsafe conditions at the mine. I hope that they get a ton of money for their pain and suffering and, also, that the mining company will do everything in its power to make the working conditions as safe as possible in the future.

My heart goes out to those poor families.

The thing about people in WV (I'm Pittsburgh born and raised but my daddy grew up in WV and a lot of our family lives down there) is that the money isn't going to help. These people aren't going to know what to do with it and it isn't going to help them grieve, the best thing for these families would be for the mine company to show compassion and make sure they are taken care of, not make them millionaires. There was a woman being interviewed on tv and she said "I know people think we're dumb, but we love our families." I found that statement so heartbreaking. To me it defines the people of WV (I don't think they're dumb by any means though).

I don't know -- I don't want to make light of the tragedy that occurred, but isn't it likely that the miners knew the risks and worked in the mine anyway? Of course it's not okay to run a shoddy mine operation that is riddled with violations, but I can't agree with the assertion that the families are automatically entitled to a "ton of money for their pain and suffering." If the company does have to pay out $$$ in damages and/or increased insurance rates/etc. as the result of what happened and is able to stay in business (I'm not sure how likely that is), there will be less money to actually try to make the working conditions safer. Is that a good result?

I was on my way home from Atl when I heard that the miners were found alive. I was happy as could be for those people. My family has a lot of miners in it, and that's where my families roots come from.

I find out this morning that it was just 'miscommunication'. Pathetic. I hope that the reports that miscommunicated and broke this latest and greatest story before the facts were straight get fired and never work again.

That's a pretty big mess up. Again, just another failing in media these days.

I was pretty surprised at how MSNBC was reporting everything related to the incident. When the first body was found, the reporter was told over the phone by a friend of the supposedly dead. She then on NATIONAL TV repeated that Terry Helms (forgive me if I'm incorrect) was dead. She had no conformation from any source. I don't think anyone knew what was going on, they just wanted something to say.

I was so happy when I heard that the men had survived, I honestly thought it was a miracle. Being a nurse, I knew that air those men were breathing was pretty much deadly. Guess I was right. :/

I agree with you, except for one point. It's next to impossible for a coal miner to get or afford insurance. Throw in the fact that the company had 208 safety violations last year, 46 of which were in December, and the few who do have insurance may not be eligible because of that. Sago was just bought out by another company; we can only hope that the new company will put the necessary safety improvements. Until it's known what really happened, it's all guesswork.

These aren't all "poor, uneducated rednecks" who didn't even try to get out of the mines (yes, I know that no one has said that, but it has been implied). Some of these men had college degrees (electric engineers, safety engineers, etc) which would have qualified them for megabucks elsewhere.

You know, these mines can get violations for not having enough toilet paper in the restroom( no joke). So before we start pointing to that as the cause, we need to look at all the facts.

The company that had owned the mine previously had gone bankrupt a year ago ( I think) and had no $$ to work on the violations. The current owners recently aquired the mine and have been working for about 2 months, trying to get it up to code. But no matter many or how few violations a mine, has, there is no way to make it completely safe. There just isn't. It's just a dangerous job. My husband is a director of coal sales and trading here in NC, and he's been to his company's mines in WV, and he told me, you just can't accident-proof the mines. And you can get violations for small, dinky crap like literally not having enough toilet paper in the bathroom. So, we have no idea what kind of shape this mine was in.

That being said, I think miners don't get paid enough for what they do.

Two excellent points.

I just read a piece about the new owner of the mine -- they took over in November -- and they get very high marks from everyone in terms of trying to bring the safety standards up. Even the United Mineworkers, who don't represent workers at the mine, give the company high marks.

Additionally, according to the story I read, over half of the violations carry fines of $46.

Yes, that's $46.

They can't be real serious.

To be fair, there were a number of more serious violations, but according to the article, there was a Federal mine inspector onsite every day that this mine was open.

The point is that when something like this happens, possibly because of the often deserved legend of the big bad nasty mine owner, we tend to rush to judgement.

Like the folks who started the "miscommunication," the media, and all others involved in this situation, perhaps we should wait until there is more information and evaluate the company, et al when the heat of the moment has passed.

I see what you're saying, valkyrie. The way I'm looking at it is that these poor guys (and many others like them) were working in the mines because it's all that was available to them in that economically-oppressed area of WV. Even with all the safety violations, they probably didn't feel as if they had a choice about going to work every day. They had families to provide for, and knew that their wives and kids were counting on them to put bread on the table each week. And with the Christmas season just finishing up, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of those guys were thinking that they needed the money now more than ever.

I also would be willing to bet that the people running that mine knew that they had their employees between a rock and a hard place, and knew that they would have to work regardless of how many violations came to light. That's why I hope that the miners' families will sue the company. Money talks when nothing else does. I realize that the company doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash, but coal is big business. My guess is that they'd be able to settle the lawsuits and still have enough to fix the mine. That, or another company would come in and buy it from them and it would get fixed that way.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I could be way off base, but that's how I feel. I just want those folks to have easier days ahead of them. They deserve that much at the very least.

I just read what DeltAlum posted, and have to say that he makes sense (as usual). My prior posts were based on the news that I'd read regarding the number of safety violations in the Sago mine. However, I didn't know that they were being fined $46 for some of them. That does seem to suggest that they weren't major violations. It tends to make me rethink my poor opinion of the company a bit. (I still want those families taken care of, though.)

Thanks for the info, DeltAlum.

I feel horribly for these families. The "miscommunication" thing was awful, but it also did not come to them via a reliable source of communication. Any real information should have come from the CEO of the company or whoever else had been the one giving the updates. I understand how it happened though, they were distraught and wanting to hang on to any thread of good news. It is sick that they would let them believe their loved ones were alive for 3 hours though. My guess is they really wanted to make sure of everything before anything was official.

On a side note - my Grandfather was a coal miner in KY. He had an 8th grade education, and had better benefits (health, pension...) than a lot of college educated people I know. I am normally against unions, but in this instance I think the miners unions do a good job in representing the workers.

Exactly. Did you ever play the game where fifteen or so people sit in a circle and the first one whispers a comment to someone, who whispers it to the next person, etc.? By the time it gets back to the person who started it, the comment isn't generally even close to how it originated.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but consider this senario:

Rescuer: "We've found them. We're checking for vital signs!

Base: "They've found them and are checking vital signs."

Company person: "They've found them and are checking their vital signs. They must be alive!"

Local cop who wants to be a hero: "I heard a company person say 'They must be alive.'"

Media Person: "We're getting reports from a local law enforcement officer that the miners have been found and may be alive."

Listener, viewer or relative: "They're Alive!"


So, who is to blame? In the end, probably everyone but the rescuer who is risking his butt down in the mine -- but nobody has miscommunicated on purpose. They all heard it from what they feel is a legitimate source.

It's tragic, but is there any single person to blame?

Ok, suing the company is not the answer. Don't you think that the miners knew the risks they were taking by accepting that job? Should a Marine's mom, whose son gets killed in Iraq, be able to sue the Marines? Or, should the wife of a roughneck who works on an oil rig in the gulf, be able to sue the oil company if there's an explosion on the rig? These people know there are risks in their job-but they do it anyway. Some jobs cannot be made 100% safe.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. I really think this is an issue that needs some kind of broader resolution than can come from lawsuits in the case, if that makes sense. It sucks that people, for whatever reason, work in unsafe or otherwise crappy conditions. It would be great if, as a society, we could work on fixing that.

Just throwing this out - what would it take? Should the Federal Government step in and insist on fixing this? Or should there be such a public outcry that the owners of companies that have poor conditions are embarrassed into changing things?

I don't know much about the nuclear industry, just what I saw in Silkwood and Kerr-McGee. Same thing with Erin Brokovich. Maybe we need a recognizable crusader such as Karen or Erin?

You make a lot of sense to me. :) I do hope that this whole ordeal will shine more light on the dangers of mining and prompt other mining companies to check (and doublecheck) their safety measures.

I agree with you that some jobs can't be made 100% safe, JennRN. But I do think there's a big difference between someone signing up for the Marines and someone working in a mine or on an oil rig. As a soldier, your job is to protect your country at all cost, and every enlisted soldier knows that there is a chance that he/she may be shot at one day... that's what war is about. On the other hand, a miner or an oil rig worker certainly realizes that his job is dangerous, but I would think that most of them are counting on their employers to follow governmental regulations designed to keep them safe on the job.

The original reports that came out on this mining company stated that the company had been cited many, many times last month for safety violations. That's what I had the problem with -- based on the news reports it appeared that the company knew there were some big safety issues with the Sago mine and kept the miners working in there anyway. To me, that smacked of corporate irresponsibility and I thought that some lawsuits from the grieving family members were in order.

However, DeltAlum posted (after I had voiced my opinions about the situation) that the safety violations did not seem to be major ones, and that folks may be jumping to conclusions by immediately blaming the company. Based on that information, I rethought my original position and am trying to hold off on any further judgments until all the facts are known.

By the way, I just saw an article online stating that the mining company is setting up a $2 million fund for the miners' families and is asking for donations from other sources as well. That looks like they're taking a step in the right direction, and I'm happy to see that they're trying to help care for the families. I don't know if threats of lawsuits or an outpouring of compassion got the ball rolling, but I'm glad to see that something's in the works.

Actually, I was the one who posted about the violations. ;)

Here's the thing though...as a nurse, I work with many patients who are HIV/Hep B/ Hep C positive-and I take all the necessary precations, and I assume that my employers will take the necessary precautions to protect me as well....however, many of the patients spit at us( I had one guy spit HIV positive blood at me), swing at us, cough on us, etc-and I have no rights againts them-I can't sue them , even though they put my health-and life at risk-so, what I guess I'm trying to say is , even the employer can't always make things right.
But, I know this, and I still go to work every shift.


Also, I think a fund for the families is a great idea. Last night -when we thought there was still a chance-Mr.RN and I thought that we should donate some $$.

So very, very sad. My heart breaks at the thought of wives waiting to learn if their husbands are alive or not-I couldn't handle it, thats for sure.

Sorry about that! You're absolutely right -- my bad! ;)

Re: your job as a nurse. Many of my chapter sisters are nurses and, after hearing some of their stories, I wouldn't wish that job on anyone. Y'all are a whole lot braver than I am! :D Thanks for the tough work that you do. I have a great deal of respect for folks in the medical field.

After working in hospitals for 13 years, especially mental health units, I learned a few things about violations. JCAHO, the main accreditor for hospitals and our state mental health department did routine visits to check for violations of various codes. The one thing you know is, they will always find something. Whether someone forgot to dot their "i" or cross their "t", their job is to find things that need to be improved. There are always things that can be improved. Some things are more serious than others and you don't want them to find serious things, but you do have to accept that will find something, even at the best hospitals in the country.

I know a lot more about steel mills than I do coal mines because my ex-husband works for a steel mill as an accountant. That is another very dangerous job that really can't be made 100% safe. It's tragic when something awful occurs, but it is a high risk job. One day, when we were still married, I got a phone call from him saying "I just wanted to let you know that I'm fine, but there was an explosion here today and there are probably a lot of people who are dead. I wanted you to know before you heard it on the news." Before I could ask any questions, the phone line went dead because the power went out. 12 men lost their lives that day (or shortly after, from related injuries) and it was heart breaking for all who worked there. I still worry that he has to hang out in the hot strip mill (why would a financial analyst have to be in that plant??). The reality is, it's dangerous. Many jobs are.. police, fire fighters, teachers (in some school districts), etc. Thankfully, there are people willing to take the risks, because we do need people to do these jobs. All we can do is show our respect and appreciation for them. Many of us wouldn't have electricity to power these PCs of ours if not for the coal miners.

COMPLETELY off topic, but something that just amazed me: did you know that you can catch Hep-C from dried blood that's up to seven days old?!?!?!?!

I'm a geriatric counselor, and I really don't like to use gloves (the human touch & all) with my clients, but after hearing this, I'm ready to wear a haz-mat suit for my next nursing home visit!!

On Topic

They showed news clips tonight from the Sago Baptist Church, and they were holding a memorial service. I expected all sorts of sad, dirge-type songs, but they were really positive. I would hate to have someone lose their faith due to something out of their control.

I also didn't realize how close to Philippi this was. The junior- and senior-high kids at my church work year round to raise money to help the truly poor of this area. They then take 2-week turns there, cleaning for older people, mending fences and stuff like that. It's really great to see such young people giving of themselves like that!

But if mining companies know that they can have unsafe conditions that end up killing workers, and then not be held accountable when those unsafe conditions do kill workers, where is the incentive to provide a safe work environment?

That was pretty much my original point as to why I hoped the families would sue. I'm really interested in finding out more about the violations and how many were truly serious.

That shouldn't be enough for them, that is in no way enough for them. It won't bring back their family members, and it doesn't changed the fact that the officers of this company lied to its employees about the safety of the mines. Companies that operate in this manner should be shut down immedately by the state. Have we learned nothing from Enron?

While this is true (to the point of being nearly tautological), it doesn't really address the actual situation very well - we don't know if the explosion was even preventable, or related to a safety violation, do we?

I would argue mining is an inherently dangerous profession . . .


Wait - where did we get to 'lying about the safety of the mines'? Doesn't the 'never bringing them back' argument go AGAINST huge sums of money, especially when it may be needed to fix the current issues?

Also - could this be ANY LESS related to Enron? Seriously, people, stop rolling Enron out any time there's corporate scandel - it's not even top 10.

I'm quotting you a lot, but please do not think I am picking on you (I'm not, I promice.)

You make good points, but I think maybe the State of WVa could have done something like sending state inspectors, etc.

I saw on the news that the same roof had collapased 20 times in 2005.

20 times!!!!! That is an outrage! Fix the freaking roof, don't just sweep it away.

Don't worry - I'm not offended. Actually, both the state and OSHA should have been all over them. The only possible "acceptable" excuse is that the mine was just sold about a month ago, and when you get cited, you have X amount of days to fix the problem. Possibly, they had several more days to do the right thing - but it's still not going to bring back their loved ones.

Supposedly there was a Federal Mine Inspector on site every day the mine was open. I'm reasonably sure he is the man interviewed by NBC today who said he felt the mine was safe, or he would have closed it.

Interesting that in an article I read the other day, the United Mine Workers had very good things to say about the new company who has owned and operated the mine only since November even though they don't represent the employees there.

Tonight on NBC Nightly News, the UMW was bad mouthing the company.

Opportunistic? It looks that way to me.

In the same story, other employees of the mine themselves had good things to say about the company and said they didn't feel unsafe in the mine.

Mining is just a damned dangerous job, and as long as people go underground, there will be accidents and deaths.

Not meaning this to be any kind of a joke, Mother Nature can be a real bitch...

Exactly. I think there should be an investigation, but I bet if the whole "miscommunication" hadn't happened, the mine company's image wouldn't be bad mouthed as much.

Mining is inherently dangerous, however, there are safety regulations that are set up to mitigate that danger. Not being a mining expert or having any knowledge of the situation (I actually think it's pretty overhyped and irrelevant compared to other things that somehow don't make the news cycle), I have no idea what took place, if it was preventable, etc. other than what I've learned from a cursory reading of headlines, this thread, and other sources.

As for what is generally the case with explosions though, it's typically pretty easy to prove where they came from, and reaching back last semester to my torts class, when a person's injury would not have ordinarily occured without someone's negligence, the thing that caused the harm is under the exclusive control of the defendant, the type of harm that occured was what might have been a reasonably foreseeable consequence of that type of negligence, and the plaintiff did not contribute to the injury through their own negligence, there's a presumption of negligence. There may of course be a lot of other regulations, statutes, etc. etc. that are involved here, none of which I have a clue about, but depending on what caused the explosion, these families may or may not have a case.

-- also whether the violation was related to a violation of the safety regulations is another item that might create a presumption of negligence.

Assuming all that is true, I'd expect punitives to be through the roof here considering that this company seems to have simply ignored safety recommendations and citations for violations of the regulations. There are big bucks here in all likelihood.

Quote:

Also - could this be ANY LESS related to Enron? Seriously, people, stop rolling Enron out any time there's corporate scandel - it's not even top 10.

I agree. Enron = completely irrelevant. This thing is interesting all by itself.

Clearly she's retarded. If she wasn't, she wouldn't have been a suspect in the first place.