Theta Kappa Nu letters
 

I was wondering what brothers thought about initiated brothers wearing Theta Kappa Nu letters, it was just a thought that crossed my mind, and I wanted to see what other brothers thought about the idea....

In ZAX

Vic Mason

I dont think it would be right for anyone nowdays to wear Theta Kappa Nu letters because we were not initated into TKN we were initated into LCA. I just feel that even thought the marger took place, we really dont know what TKN really stands for and the real interworking behind TKN. I to would like to here everyone elses opinion on the subject.

That's an interesting question. If you mean something like football jerseys, I don't think they had them. I've never seen a picture of anyone wearing a "OKN" jersey.

Technically, though, since they no longer exist, it would be like having your own local fraternity again. There was, after all, another TKN - the Order of the Coif - before our TKN.

Wearing specific insignia, like the badge, is a different matter.

ZAX,
Jono

I recall meeting brothers from at least one chapter in the 1990's that proudly but secretly wore Theta Kappa Nu Sweatshirts and Football jerseys. They did this when I saw them at a conclave in their hotel room(s) and were extremely proud of this.

The chapter in question shall remain anonymous

Lenoxxx

It would be nice to somehow incorporate the letters into something public, but not tell what they mean.

Kind of like a secret between brothers.

TKN usage = innapropriate
 

I thought it was pretty much out of respect for the men we absorbed into our fraternity (and disbanded theirs) that we end using their insignia without permission. I know we promised them that they're Ritual would never be used without their permission (Just as they promised the last time it would be conducted was at “the merger meeting”), but I'm not sure about their letters. Since they're letters did represent everything they were about, and not what Lambda Chi Alpha was or is about...I think it's highly inappropriate for us to think we can wear those.

I’m pretty sure the only things we were allowed to absorb were the chapters, the physical and financial assets (however small they were), the COA qualities and VQV(E) motto, the A.M. Pin design, and their ritual transformed into the Pledge Ceremony (now A.M.C.)…Thankfully, we also got “Dad” and other transformational assistants. I do not believe we were ever given the right to adopt their fraternity letters.

I could imagine that whenever a LCA member would want to wear those, it would never be out of “remembrance” for TKN (I believe still disrespectful), but rather to wear fraternity letters while not wanting to wear LCA letters. For example, I've seen a chapter do this to get away from "drinking in letters" because they're not really "our" letters, but in the end I think anyone who does that is not only disrespecting TKN, but also intentionally tarnishing what they stand for. In my opinion, totally inappropriate.

__________________
Lambda Chi Alpha
epsilon-xi zeta 937
florida southern college

What he said.

As proud as we are of our heritage, which includes our union with TKN, we are Lambda Chi Alpha. Period. If we want to show respect to our brothers who came to us through TKN, we can do it by trying to learn as much as we can about who they were, what they did, and what they stood for. Their values must have been very similar to our own, or they would not have merged with us.

Seriously; how cool would it be to see the TKN ritual exemplified after almost 70 years? Many of us would gladly forfeit an appendage just for the privilage. But the agreement made at that time between Theta Kappa Nu and Lambda Chi Alpha makes it clear that this is not what they wanted. That agreement is, in a way, like the last will and testement of Theta Kappa Nu. We should respect that.

In "sometimes it's hard to do the right thing" ZAX,
Ottor

After the 50th GA we talked about doing the TKN ritual at the 100th Anniversary. I think IHQ decided that it would not be possible, because we (as a fraternity) agreed not to perform it. I think the FEW existing TKNs would probably give permission, but I don't know if even that would be enough.

While I am sure that the wearing of TKN Letters was not out of disrespect, it was poorly chosen because of tenets set forth between LXA and TKN in the merger.

I know Rose-Huleman has the TKN Coat of Arms painted on their basemant wall along with LXAs. I have TKN Badges and Pledge Book and have nothing but respect for what they did and the Members who were to become so important to the merger of Both Greek Organizations.

It may be best to have Both Sets of Letters on Shirts rather than use Letters to drink in.

That is disrespect just as it would be towards LXA.

The Men of TKN with the help of LXA expanded to be a very strong Greek Organization until the WWII and We all hurt to stay alive.

It became a almost perfect fit with the exception of some Campi where both were there.

That is why TKN Chapters were given a special Zeta Recognition Tau, Kappa, and Nu (?).

Respect is earned, and it is earned and deservidly so with what TKN did.

I wondered about this being a hypothetical question, but I really dont thisk it was, it must have actually happened.

First off, I have nothing but respect for TKN. In that fact alone, I wear their letters only when the chapter decides upon it. We have, as a chapter, ordered TKN letters to wear in respect to them. Many brothers who wear the letters do so because they feel they can do so while drinking, partying, etc. with little regard to the wishes of their alums. Not only does my chapter refuse to participate in wearing our letters while at social events, we only wear them around campus, in between classes.

You may correct me if I am wrong, but if I'm not mistaken LXA took over all intellectual rights of TKN which is why we are able to display and use their symbols and rituals (AM ceremony) freely. This includes the AM pin, and parts of LXA's own coat of arms (the lion and rose to name a few). Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, LXA has full privledge to display TKN's letters as a right of intellectual ownership. Not arguing, just stating my point...

In ZAX,

TJ Johnson
High Tau
Phi Delta Zeta

As with many things in life, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Of course, it's a judgement call for each of us. No one is going to get in real trouble for wearing the letters of a fraternity that effectively ceased to exist nearly 70 years ago.

I try to look at it from the perspective of the men who were initiated into TKN. If LXA were taken over by another fraternity, it would break my heart to see their members wearing our letters.

Not only that, but my Lambda Chi letters mean so much to me that I don't want to wear any others.

Respect!

That seems to me to be the key word.

The changes that were mentioned were worked out in the Merger much of it out of again respect.

This melded the Two Organizations into one. By doing this, there was something left of TKN that was important:

Changing the LXA Pledge Pin, The Coat of Arms, Ritual, The Code of Conduct are a few.

Many of the TKN Brothers had a large hand in redesigning what We as LXA Brothers know today. It should really not be taken lightly and with much respect for those TKN and LXA Brothers who worked this out to make One much larger Fraternity that we are today.:)

Again, as I said earlier, if one wants to have both sets of letters that would be fine depending on how they were used

About 10 years ago my LXA big brother, Scott Johnson, and I were driving from El Paso to Tucson, AZ to see the UTEP/U of A football game. Scott was mentioning that he'd seen a guy wearing Theta Kappa Nu letters when he'd visited a LXA chapter on another campus. We discussed it a bit and then remembered that the associate ceremony had bits of the Theta Kappa Nu ritual in it. Would this mean that the associates, active and alumni are in essence now "brothers" through Theta Kappa Nu? I understand that's a major stretch, but we were trying to have one of those deep discussions that fraternity brothers do when they've been driving through the middle of nowhere for 6 hours -- anyone who has driven through New Mexico and Arizona will agree.

LCA AMC = ThKN Rx?
 

I know what you mean by those long discussions you have while driving across Arizona, NM, TX desert. One of my favorite memories as an active brother was my Spring 2001 road trip with fellow Associate Member Jeremy. We picked up one spring break and headed from Central Florida to Burbank, CA to get on the Price Is Right.

So, as we go down those long dusty roads, ideas start floating around. It's interesting to hear of your thoughts about the Associate Member ceremony being linked to the Theta Kappa Nu ritual. But when you ask if we'd all be considered a ThKN brother (since we've all taken the AM oath and received the AM pin, etc) I think it's stretching it a little bit. Yes, we did take some core ideas from a specific part of the ThKN Initiation ritual to create our "pledge ceremony"...before the 1972 creation of Associate Membership. Anyone who's had the chance to peek at the ThKN ritual can attest to its respectable ritualistic references and presentation. While we have a very nice AMCeremony...let's not forget the respect shown to ThKN due to their relinquishing of their Initiation Ritual. We can't consider ourselves brothers of ThKN, because we've never been through their Initiation Ritual...only a ceremony created out of respect for (and with great reference to) their ritual. Keep in mind, the oaths you took before you became a pledged aspirant were in promise to Lambda Chi Alpha. That is the important thing to remember. You were pledging yourself to her, not a fraternity that was absorbed in 1939. Plus, if I were a ThKN, I'd totally have to find some new bumper stickers for my car...and that would be a long eBay search.

Good thoughts tho.

P.S. We did get on the Price is Right, and Jeremy did win a dinette set for his mom. Bob Barker knows what’s up.

Grits, great to see that you'll be at UM. I know after last GA, the member of the IRT had tossed around the idea of doing the TKN ritual at the 100th Aniv. I'm pretty sure the idea fell apart, but I would love to see it performed.

Theta Kappa Nu Ritual at Centennial GA
 

Brothers,

I am a member of our Centennial Planning Committee. I will propose to our Chairman that we have a Theta Kappa Nu Room at the Centennial GA. Entry to this area would be restricted to members of Lambda Chi Alpha. I will propose that we have volunteer Brothers, dressed in authentic TKN Regalia, trained to tell the story of the TKN Ritual.

I am not suggesting that the TKN Ritual be performed. But, I am suggesting that the room be organized as a TKN ritual space. I also would like to see TKN memorabilia on display in this room. To me, this would be a great opportunity to learn more about this important organization without violating any commitment that we have to never exemplify the full TKN Ritual.

I already have the necessary TKN information at hand in my collection to layout the room. I understand that a number of our former TKN Zetas have great collections of TKN artifacts. Hopefully, enough of these items could be loaned to us for use at the Centennial GA to make for a wonderful display.

As a side note, one of my favorite TKN items in my collection is a photograph of a TKN Ritual Team, in full robes and caps, standing in broad daylight in front of their Chapter House! Would we do that today? Or ever....

So, just an idea.

What do the rest of you think about this proposal?

Yours in ZAX,

Mike Raymond, Z-U Zeta

Mike, I think that would be awesome. We should never forget our history especially the TKN portion which is still the largest merger in Greek History.

One part of History has been found by some G C Brothers and this would add a tremendous aspect to General Assembly.

I did know Doc Feist (Drury) who was very big with TKN and quite the Gentleman.

I think that is one of the best ideas I've ever heard. I would love the opertunity to learn more about the LCA TKN connection.

Mike, that would be the bee's knees!

Bees Knees:D

That is showing age isnt it?;)

Golly, Mister Cleaver, that's swell.

Well, you guys "almost" got it. With that said, 23 skidoo! :)

I don't have my LXA history book on hand at the moment, but I do remember
reading about the last ThKN Grand Chapter (GA) in Birmingham. Right after
the vote for merger, the comments of the Grand Archon included something
like "You are no longer Theta Kappa Nu, you are Lambda Chi Alpha! Just
as soon as you get back to your chapter, take down your ThKN signs and
replace them with LXA. Our brothers at Birmingham-Southern have already
done so! (applause)"

I don't think anyone should wear the letters on a shirt like that. What
some in our (former ThKN) chapter do is get LXA jerseys/sweatshirts
in silver/black/red colors in honor of ThKN, but the letters are LXA since
we are LXA.

I think if I saw someone in a shirt with ThKN letters, I would be tempted
to challenge them....do they know the ThKN password?? handshake???
meaning of the letters??? (since I do ;) )

Some of our ThKN alums used to wear their ThKN badges to Homecoming
(I don't think any are left alive now who are able to go to Homecoming),
but since they were initiated into ThKN, I think that's OK. I have a ThKN
badge that I wear rarely, only to LXA events, and only below my LXA
badge. If I run into someone who doesn't know what it is and asks,
I tell them it is an "old LXA badge that is no longer in use".

I was in on discussions at GA 2004 about doing ThKN ritual at 100th
Anniv. celebration. Definitely part of the merger agreement was that
ThKN's ritual never again be performed, and I believe we are duty bound
to observe that.

But I had another idea that might not invalidate the agreement. ThKN's
ritual room setup (somewhat intricate) was used for all formal meetings, including regular
chapter meetings. Perhaps we could just set up a room decorated according
to script, and have brothers dressed in ThKN robes act as "tour guides"
to explain everything in the room, which would include a ThKN "museum".
It might even be fun to "require" brothers to give the ThKN handshake
and/or password to enter the room (which can be found in old Paed.s
and "Ritual What and Why").

Maybe too close to the line, a time could be set up to "read" the ritual
out loud to a group who wanted to hear it (but not act it out). It would
be educational enough to only read-out parts of the ritual, since it is very
repetitive (I have copies of a couple of versions). The most interesting
part is "part B" of the "fourth scene". I think reading the "first scene" along
with "parts B and C" of the "fourth scene" would be sufficient to give
everyone a good idea of what it was like.

The first three scenes and parts A,C of the fourth scene were condensed
into our AM ceremony (yes, it was renamed the "AM Ceremony" in 1972,
but that is identical to the "Pledge ceremony" adopted in 1939. It
was not re-written in 1972. You'll notice that, even though the AM Ceremony
is not secret and non-members may attend, during this "public"
ceremony, new members take an oath to never reveal and "secrets" they
learn during this "secret" ceremony....testimony to the fact it
wasn't changed in 1972!!)

Its always been my opinion that all LXA's share the ThKN heritage equally,
whether from "former" ThKN chapters or not. I would hope everyone
would respect that heritage as our brothers of 1939 intended.

P.S. (Edited...should have read the WHOLE thread before posting!) -
oops! I just realized this idea was already posted! Great minds
think alike, huh! lol!

God willing, I'll be at the 2009 celebration. I can bring the following from
my chapter (maybe I can dig up some more goodies before then):
- Official Badge (already plenty of those), official Ring, official Alumni Recog Button
- Actual "League and Covenant of ThKN - Kentucky Alpha Chapter"
(too delicate to touch, it falls apart easily, so will provide color copies of pages)
- Plaque with Coat of Arms (given as gifts for a Formal Dance we had in the 1930's)
- Member Certificate (probably plenty of those around too)
- Composites (or copies of). Our chapter had the idea of arranging brother's
photos in the shape of a letter for each year. So 1928 in the shape of Theta,
29 Kappa, 30 Nu, 31 K, 32 Y., 33 A. After that plans were for 34=l, p, h, a,
but those composites were never made (membership dropped significantly in
late 30's) or they were lost.
- Photos from the era
- Copy of THETA NEWS (fall 1928, has story of our chartering).

Some of these you won't need....Mike let me know if the committe would like
me to bring any of these. I'll need to dig them up over the next year---I plan
to accept a faculty position at another university by 2009 so I won't be
'local' to Gtown by then.

Cool, sounds awesome. I'd love to got to GA in '09