Lee says educated blacks should be role models
11/3/05 USA TODAY

MURFREESBORO, Tenn. (AP) - Spike Lee says the value of education is being overshadowed by the images that gangsta rap glorifies.

"Young black kids didn't grow up wanting to be a pimp or a stripper like they do now," Lee said of his youth in Brooklyn.

He drew two standing ovations Wednesday night as a featured speaker at a conference on cultural diversity at Middle Tennessee State University. The 48-year-old filmmaker, who is working on a documentary on Hurricane Katrina, urged students to find a way to make being educated cool again.

"Back then, we were not called sellouts for using our brains. And being intelligent was not frowned upon," Lee said. He likened the images from some rap videos to the distorted view minstrel shows of the 19th century gave most of the world about American blacks.

Strong words that can't be repeated enough.

I don't honestly beleive that education has ever been "cool". Although I liked going to school not achieving was NOT an option. For me it goes back to strong parenting IN THE BEGINNING. The VALUE of education needs to be stressed by parents early.. I know of several mentor programs in my area that are lacking volunteers because the volunteers have a very difficult job stressing and teaching (particularly on the value of education) when all their efforts are undermined once the child is in their home environment. In my experience most of these parent(s) have no job and have more than adequate time but refuses to play an active role in the education of their children...

RBL, you make a good point. Parents and guardians need to have their act together and be involved. Otherwise, it can be come cyclical. I don't feel that gangsta rap itself is the root of all problems but a symptom of a certain enviornment. I wish there was an easy solution.

So true, RBL, so true!

I agree.

The focus on gangsta and commercial rap is misplaced. The role of parents (and even extended family) in the process of raising a bright and well-rounded generation of children can never be underestimated.

As we have seen with the Katrina fallout, education is essential - it IS power - there is no way around it and that is not just a cliché! :mad:

I agree with all that has been said. However, if each household had parents that support a valued education, much of what we strive to do as members of the Pan Hell would not be needed. To that end, as educated persons we must continue to bridge the gap for those that have not had our opportunities.

Also, what I continue to find interesting as a male (and I know we have discussed this to some extent), educated women seemingly are drawn more to men with the thug mentality than the educated accomplished male. My point being if we are going to tell kids they need to value education and dismiss the images seen on BET and other shows women must also lead by example by supporting men with education and some degree of success. I'm not asking the ladies to go after ever nerd in the country but to make it the right thing to do by uplifting brothers that are progressive and intelligent.

I think it's a good message, but
 

Sadly, though, I don't see how Spike's message can be transmitted to those who really need to hear it -- underclass people. Most of us are at least middle-class or working towards that status.

Re: I think it's a good message, but
 

we help shape society and its views. if we also send a strong message, perhaps the views of the "underclass" will change. rosa parks' one action helped change the country.

Re: Re: I think it's a good message, but
 

I see ST's point, though. Look at where Spike delivered his message - at a University. If someone is at university, they are either (1) already part of the middle/upper class, or (2) striving to get there. It is a good and important message but Spike (and many others) are merely preaching to the choir.

I've yet to see any prominent African American dare to take this message to the people who need to hear it most. Now granted, I'm up here in the Great White North and it might not have made the news cycles up here, but is anyone going this route?

I totally agree with this... women have a lot of influence when it comes to shaping the male attitude/actions(to some degree).

Re: Re: Re: I think it's a good message, but
 

Sistermadly,
Yes, Spike spoke at MTSU but how many of the spectators who heard him are likely involved in community orgs. and making the difference he (and we) are all talking about?

This is the point I was making in the "black church" thread. it's not the "prominent AfAms" but everyday people who ARE working at these initiatives in cities across the U.S., just outside the media glare. I'm sure Urban League chapters, churches, NAACP chapters (in some cities), frat/sorority chapters, work in programs with elements of the "underclass" who do want to change. I just think the impact is more incremental than we'd all like to see.

^^
Incremental is a good point. Expectations, IMO, have been fired up for us for years, thanks to the civil rights movement. But I've read it somewhere that whole populations just don't move in lockstep from poverty to affluence. People have to be well-prepared and take advantage of opportunities when they open up.

And the society just, IMO, isn't as open as it was during the movement's heyday.

I think many people would agree with you. They do not SEE these openings either. But, not only are they not well-prepared to take advantage of what might come along, they are also not prepared (or educated enough) to shape their futures by constructive means.

Whatever society in which we live and whatever our circumstance, we must always be determined to create opportunity where there is none. And, we must develop a means to communicate these realities that we discuss among the choir directly to the people who NEED to hear it, not just those who want to.

I agree. We live in a (global) culture that rewards anti-intellectualism, so it'll be even more difficult to convince people that there are greater rewards (not just financial rewards) that come with class mobility.

Sistermadly--

I am here with you up in the Pac NW. The problem here is there is too much egoism, pride (from the old ways of doing things) and "feudalism"--or fifedoms.

I think the reason why it is that way is that is the way some "folks" want it. I.E. Billy Gates, Paulie Allen, et al. There is no motivation to make the effective changes that are needed to make it happen up here for any child of African descent to succeed. I see it EVERYDAY at UW... And you can forget about the entire state of Oregon...

You also have the issue of "claiming heritage" up here. For instance, there should BE NO REASON WHY the ONLY African American Museum in the Puget Sound area (Tacoma, WA) had to close its doors. Aside from gross mismanagement and lack of support, there is some "old guard" that actually does not have the corporate structure and ideology needed to reason with these wonderful "Mercer Island/Bellevue/Redmond/Issaquah/Spokane folks" who run things up here. Moreover, many folks actually do not want to be considered of African descent here. You can see that all over the place.

You could say probably the most effective group of African Americans in this area are maybe, Blacks at Microsoft, Boeing Employees, Weyerhauser and Niketown in Portland--and really other than personally connecting up in Bellevue on Friday nights, what do they really do? And those folks are pretty much corporate and spread out--so what connection do they really have? Really? And they dayum sho don't want any "real life changing African Americans" from the outside to do anything--just look at what happened at Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Seattle...

I really don't mean to get on your case and I do not intend to focus my comments on you, but I am working in these community service organizations up here and I nary see a even a "negro" to acknowledge my existance even in non-Af Am. organizations--I am usually the "token" and I hate it...

And really, the way the MLK day celebration is planned up here is bucket stoopid... Really. I have NEVER EVER ATTENDED a jacked up meeting like that EVER in my life...

Besides making like "logical decisions" of connecting two groups of folks together is like pulling hen's teeth. Hayle, like who would think that a dental program at a community college could have some of their students as part of their training share proper care of dental appliances at an old folks home would NOT be beneficial for both parties? Who would have a problem with that? But, that is what happened when I tried to facilitate this process...

And the few black folks up here trying to make effective change--man if I haven't seen what it takes to be a superhero, then, dayum I don't know what else needs to be done...

Back to the topic...
 

Although I share some agreement with Spike on what he said, he did, back in the day--like 1990 told homedude at Morehouse about how "She's Gotta Have It" and "Do The Right Thing" were rated "R" movies and children ought not to be attending after homedude told him that he was a "role model" for young people...

So it is somewhat bold of Spike to say what he said given what he did when he started... It sounds like now that he is all high falluntin', that other African Americans who are trying to break it in the film business and barely get greenlighted to do "insightful" films, like "Diary of a Mad Black Woman", would have someone as prominent as Spike curse them out for filmaking in general...

Now, fiddy pennies, either he is truly a clown or he really is that smart, and laughs all the way to the bank--or die tryin' :rolleyes: has his pulse on what some folks will actually PAY MONEY to see--negroes killin' negroes flicks... 'Cuz we dayum sho would be sneakin' into the movies and bootleg that chit before actually PAYING a dolla to see it...

Besides, you think these big studio execs give a dayum about greenlighting positive African American movies that can be "proven beyond their shadow of a doubt" to make buttloads of money at the theater and DVD sales? NO.

So we will NEVER EVA see a positive African American movie with that fall in a positively minded genre without having to "add too much water" to the script...

Baffoonery and minstrelism and criminality pays. And yes, the price is high. But that's what "moviegoing audiences" that are in these "focus groups" wanna see... Now, who are in these "focus groups" and who decides these things... Hmmmm????

So that's why "Birth of a Nation" could be remade and make a ton of money. And I'm gonna do it and laugh all the way to the bank--or die tryin'... :rolleyes: ;)

And I didn't take it as such. :cool: Not to make this all about me, but here in Vancouver, there aren't any civic/social organizations that have service to the Black community as their mission -- mainly because we're such a small part of the population here, but also for many of the same reasons you alluded to in your post. But your notion of cultural fiefdoms? I am right here >< with you, AKA_Monet. Vancouver is exactly the same.

I gotta ask though... as seen other threads; ie. the too 'white' too 'black' thread; do you see the anti-intellectualism issue as solely a 'black' vs 'white' issue? Or as an issue of people getting upset because they think someone is acting superior?

The reason I ask - somewhat inelegantly - is that I'm wondering how much of the "better" man is based on a 'white american' ideal - ie. the "melting-pot"; and how much is predicated by some level of envy of any "success"?

Basically - even though I can't identify with it - I think that Spike has a very valid point: success is the best way to change a system rigged against you, because even if it doesn't highlight the stupidity of the system at least it puts you in a position to change it somehow.

I see it as a global issue (which is what I said in an earlier post). Perhaps global is the wrong word -- universal might be more appropriate. One only needs to look at who currently occupies 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to see evidence of it.

I think I see what you're getting at... and I think there might be a nugget of truth to your question. I think there is a certain amount of nihilism at play in disenfranchised communities as well, and I think that when a person has reduced or non-existent expectations for achievement that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You see someone striving while you're standing still, and your envy makes you want to tear that other person down instead of pulling them aside and asking "Hey, how did you make it? And how can I?" If one is envious of the "haves", then getting depressed and failing to achieve doesn't seem like the right answer, IMO. I understand how difficult and demoralizing it can be - I lived that reality for most of my life - but simply giving up and failing to "check in" is not the way to go about this.

The key is to challenge those diminished expectations and, perhaps, to develop a different definition of what it means to succeed. Condoleeza Rice might not have Oprah's money, but she's a success. Marva Collins was a school teacher/school administrator, but she was a success. The doctor down the street who had to work several jobs to put himself through undergraduate and medical school is a success, not simply because he's a doctor, but because he challenged people's expectations and beat them.

The American Dream is unfairly stacked against a number of minority communities, primarily because people in these communities have been denied access to things like wealth or the ability to accumulate financial capital, or the access to cultural capital that opens doors. What needs to happen - and what used to happen in the past - was that we created our own networks, had our own systems of cultural capital and used them to our advantage. But somewhere we became derailed from these systems and ended up where we are now. I look at the circumstances AKA_Monet was describing and that seems like evidence of this - people tearing the other down instead of trying to find a workable solution that benefits everyone.

Maybe competing on "the man's" turf using "the man's" rules isn't the best way to negotiate these spaces. Maybe what we need is some sort of hybridized rules to that addresses our particular situation as 'hybridized' people.

It's early and I'm not awake yet so I don't know how much of this is gibberish. ;)

What is needed for our youth is a moral role model- be they educated or uneducated. What is sadly lacking in our society is a moral role model for our youth to look up to. Teachers, preachers,- use to be role models but with our pervasive culture of immorality and greed there are no real role models for our youth to look up to that are highlighted in the media. Yes I agree that a positive Black film is not the norm. I think the movie The Gospel put forth a good effort in its attempt, where we saw a young man turn his back on the trappings of this world and decided to make a moral and personal decision with his life. More films like this should be appreciated by youth- but sadly they wish to view get rich or die trying with 50 cent. They see this as the life to aspire to.:(

What Spike Lee is saying is true but, there is such a thing as freedom of speech. so it is a catch 22 situation simply because rappers do whatever will make them money so that they can feed their family

Great Point/Old News
 

Sadly, every 10 years or so, young generations find a new way to recreate the same old thug/hustler/pimp persona and amplify "coolness" to new levels. The young thugs with pants drooping around their knees are the same pimps that used to wear finger waves and push Buick Elektra 225s with whitewalls and "diamonds in the back..." Call me cynical, but I'm convinced that as a people, we'll never be fully able to live down embarrassing, senseless habits. :(

^^
I don't think so, either. Some of us can, but too many of us are still caught up. On the other hand, the fact is that there are many different kinds of AfAms and we just can't go in lockstep from poverty to affluence. Too many class issues at work.

*bump* :)

That's actually UNTRUE, although it makes for exciting propaganda.

Intellect was valued in certain social and educational settings then as it is now. People wanted to get out of the slums through hardwork and education then as they do now, despite what the media portrayals are. However, blacks who wanted to mingle outside of an "elite" circle were generally conscious about the dual identity they needed to maintain.

Anthologies of Black America, such as those conducted by W.E.B DuBois, indicate that many blacks always felt the need to fulfill a cultural stereotype and not display what were viewed as "white traits." The rise of the Black bourgoise also saw a tendency of the children of these middle and upperclass Blacks to "slum" in an attempt to speak and dress a certain way. They wanted to fit in with their lower class and (usually) less educated peers. There were glorified pimps and hustlers back then, too.

Dearest Chaos,

You never cease to amaze me--beauty and brains in abundance!

Love,
Mom

:D

Thanks, mama.

(Your check's in the mail.....)

that quote was from Shelton Lee, not me.

I knew you'd respond with this. LOL.

I know that it wasn't your quote. Reading the article and seeing the quotation marks followed by "Lee said" are what clued me in. ;)

As I listen to 3 6 Mafia (Dis bleep, Dat bleep), read what my friend is typing me about the degradation of black youth by today's commercial urban music, and read this forum, I can only shake my head.


I'm not that old, but I think:

- The black community has gotten comfortable. We came this far, and we can sacrifice and keep gambling, but why? To help some family that's less off? The parents of that family should be doing more that way their children can do better. I (I don't really mean that I think this) shouldn't have to push harder for them. I need to worry about me and mines. Sure, when tragedy strikes, we're all up in arms about how our people are getting the worst end of the stick. However, at other times, majority of people do not care (not to say everyone). We've turned into a bunch of hypocrites.


example: I went to the SGA and Student Activities during the summer to ask if we could work towards getting buses to bus students to the Millions More event. The SGA president was more concerned about saving funds for the annual six flags trip.

On college students:

- I wish we had more students who could at least talk good game. I don't know that many. Majority (who are actually the minority on a college campus) are involved in student organizations. Outside of members of different orgs, the rest of my campus are just passing through. They're trying to get paid, but could care less about expanding their horizons. Yes, I am one of those students who is probably considered a good game talker. I long to help out this jacked up community and will talk til tomorrow about it, but it's hard to figure out how on the grand scale (and thinkin small seems just that...thinkin small). We're a misguided group...student leaders of today. We're running on fumes from the former leaders of the 50s and 60s because it feels like our parents' generation got skipped over but they raised us. We're stuck between being like every one else and being bold & different. I think Spike Lee was in the right place and not preaching to the choir. He was preaching to those who would probably benefit the most. Black college students of today have made it far...in a time where you're either a comfy exec or struggling & poor, they still have a choice. The fire in them can still be lit. When? Sadly, I can't tell you.

I found this article interesting:

College divide threatens to keep poor in poverty

Pretty much sums up what I was going to say... But in a more coherent way.

I see several different distinctions being made here and I have some questions to gain insight and clarity into the subject:

What is the difference between being accomplished versus successful? Is there a difference and if not, why not?

Is success measured in monetary value in the 21st century? Does it really matter in the "grand scheme of things"? Because really, it all comes down to it, you will be born into this world and the only way you are going to get out of it is die out of this world.

And my question is not meant to bring up some "moral code" here, because I do not operate on that wavelength. It is more a "spiritual pursuit" of mine and what the Universe is calling. Remember, many ancient African cultures believed that good and evil are just opposites sides of a coin... So are really that much different than our African ancestors' thinking from long ago?

I would like to hear some perspectives that I either I am missing or haven't considered before...

According to the American culture of individualism, merit, and "dream." There are also gender and race schemas that fit into America's view of success.

I, however, measure success based on happiness, well being, and contribution. I chose my occupation based on what I can contribute and whether I could be happy doing the work that I do. I may never make a butt-load of money but I'll make enough to not be in debt, take care of my family, and to feed my shopping addiction. :p

I skimmed this article and was left with a lot of questions. I will read it in detail and provide a response. However, my initial reaction is that its okay for a college degree to help propel families to middle class but I see the biggest problem being that many that have aspirations don't fulfill them or even many of those that DO enroll never finish. Some college <> College degree.

ttt