Ummmm.... State College isn't exactly a tiny little town. There are plenty of options, plenty of 3rd party vendors. State College has more options than MANY MANY schools that are located in very small towns or very conservative towns- for example, Westminster. So that reasoning is 100% pure bull. Even if there weren't many options for 3rd party vendors, that's not going to cause any HQ to overlook an NPC rule- rules that would VOID your insurance policies, and subject them to possibly millions of dollars in liability.

Aphidancer03, what gives you the right to speak for the women of another sorority? Do you want them speaking for you? Sounds like a lot of hearsay to me. Maybe you should keep your nose in your own business, don't you think?

PM_Mama, I wouldn't take what she says too seriously, as she's not even a member of Phi Mu and is likely just sh!ttalking.

Actually, instead of your national officers, I would think Alpha Phi's would be much more interested in knowing one of their chapters is "special" and doesn't have to follow the rules. I'm sure it's news to them.

ETA: The third party vendor rule has been around for quite awhile- when was that passed-2000, I think?

And on an interstate rivalry note: Again, another example of someone thinking State College is some magical wonderland.

The third party rule passed in the fall of 2000 yes, BUT the way the bylaw was written there are a bunch of loop holes that some sororities try to exploit. We had problems with it the whole time I was at Penn State (2000-2004). The rule is there in theory but it is ignored, well at least it was ignored when I was there. The whole third party vendor thing is difficult, because there are only 4 or 5 places willing to rent to us. Those are the typical formal locations, Tussey Lodge, Knights of Colombus, places like that. Bars won't rent out to us. It's too expensive to really do more than one a semester. When you're used to having socials Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, it's hard to get the women to agree to having not as many socials. The socials are a big part of being Greek at PSU. I'm not saying its right or wrong, that's just the way it is. It's been frustrating ever since the sororities went "dry." It's an evolving system that still hasn't worked itself out almost 6 (school) years later.

I can see where the local girls would be frustrated with the changes they have to make. On the other hand (and more importantly), they CHOSE to affiliate with Phi Mu. If they don't like it, they should leave. I would like to assume they did enough research on the organization both at a local and a national level to make an informed decision to affiliate. In which case they would know the campus climate and would know the panhellenic rules they would be expected to follow and the work they would have to do to make Phi Mu at Penn State the best it can be.

Phi Mu has always had a great sisterhood and in my opinion better than some of the more "desireable" houses. You can see the love for their organization on their faces and their fight to keep themselves at PSU. I really respect the Phi Mu women for all they've done. I'm glad they were able do this and this definately makes things easier to have more women. GO PHI MU!!!!



kddani, but state college is a magical wonderland! ;) You're just jealous because you went to pitt. ha ha ha j/k ;) Penn Staters really do live in a bubble when they're at PSU.

I miss the real Pitt-Penn State rivalry. Can't someone drug JoePa so we can actually play again in football?

Just curious as to why bars won't rent out to greek organizations? I'm guessing it's due to poor behavior on behalf the the greeks in the past, in which case, you reap what you sow.

I can understand people wanting socials, but there shouldn't be any "agreeing" by the women to less socials. You don't get to "agree" with the rules. I do understand, because I know the mentality of my sisters when the rules changed. We got in trouble for violating them, and the chapter still probably does.

In any event, what I really took issue with is the APhi poster basically saying they don't have to follow the rules.

I would bet it's more economics.

You can rent a bar to (roughly) 200 sorority and fraternity members, 125-150 of whom are probably underage and therefore can't drink anything but pop.

Or you can leave your bar open for the whole rest of the college, the locals, and the out of towners - ALL of whom are 21 and will drink alcohol.

This has been my gripe about 3rd party vendors since that whole thing was started. It's not really an option unless you have so much money that you can pay the bar enough in rent to make up for the money they will lose on you.

And everyone who's said if they don't like it they should leave is right.

33girl is exactly right. The bars make too much money on any given night to give that up to a couple greek organizations even for a couple hours.

ETA: When I said agreeing, I meant actually voting for or against social policy when it comes up.

Makes sense to me :) But my original squabble with her post stands- Penn State isn't unique in that regard, and it's not an excuse to say you're exempt from the rules.

While I understand the purpose of a 3rd party vendor from a legal standpoint, I know it sucks for the chapters. But guess it's easier for me, as i've never been a big drinker, to not really feel sorry about it. If our predecessors hadn't done such stupid things (as well as the continuation of stupid things being done currently), we wouldn't have the need for this.

Any girl who was around before 2000 should be graduated by now, so how can the girls be "used" to having socials Thur-Fri-Sat?

eta in response to your edit: but whether or not to follow social policy isn't something to be voted on... lol, just like you can't vote not to follow anti-discrimination rules. Hope the officers all realize their butts are on the line legally if something happens, because the insurance policy is going to say screw you.

I think she's talking about when the policy was originally enacted.

I didn't say we don't have to follow the rules, we do have lots of rules and things continue to get stricker, but the climate is obvi different the other campus' which is what I was trying to illustrate.

How is it different from anywhere else?

The Th-F-S socials were still going on in full force when I graduated in 2004. I doubt it's changed yet.

Basically the rule is there. Do people follow it? No. Is it a problem? Yes for many many reasons.

And I'm not really sure what Aphidancer is saying. Each Greek system is unique. Anyone on this board knows that. PSU's chapters don't get special treatment from any of their (inter)national organizations. Plenty of chapters have been in trouble for this issue since the sororities went dry.

We have all of our parties at bars because its in our national bylaws that parties MUST be at third party vendors for liability reasons. The parties are always 3 hours long (usually 8-11) and then they open the bar up to the publics.
However, bars don't exactly lose money on us because most everybody in this town has a fake ID and the bouncers are not strict at all.

That's the thing, the bars in State College won't do that for us. I wish they would, but they don't. It would make everyone's lives so much easier if we could have functions at the bars.

That's not to say they don't support the Greek community. Many of them host THON nights where the nights profits go to our Dance Marathon.

Um, so your chapter exec doesn't check IDs at all? We always have our parties at bars that open to the public after our party, but our girls know that if they try and use a fake at our party, they'll get caught. :confused:

]

If your officers are knowingly allowing underage women into your socials held at bars, even if they have a fake, they are probably assuming some serious levels of liability. At some level are you, as a chapter, not promoting underage drinking?


I have a question. Is it just AST or all NPCs (I assume it is all) that does not allow events where alcohol is the main function of the event?

I just do not understand how chapters are allowed to have chapter events at bars, establishments whose main function is alcoholic beverage service. I'm seriously confused on how this works. Why would you even have a chapter event that every sister could not legally attend? Isn't the idea of a fraternity/sorority social to bond with your sisters and also give everyone in the org a chance to bond/meet people in another org?

(I went to a college where we did not have mixers.)

I'm going to attempt to stay out of the arguement regarding what Penn State is like because I don't know (I went to school in Arkansas in A DRY COUNTY...in the 90's. It was interesting.)

However....I do want to give a huge AMEN to PM_Mama's above statement. I don't understand why students have no coping skills when it comes to dry events. Seriously, it's like they cannot socialize with anyone else unless there is alcohol involved. We're not saying that once you join a GLO you can never drink a beer again. We're just saying that there's a time when you cannot drink, and then there's times you can.

The bonds of brotherhood and sisterhood are made by enjoying each other and being real with each other...that doesn't happen with alcohol on board. I'd challenge ANY chapter who promotes that they have a true, solid brotherhood/sisterhood bond, but who plans every event around alcohol (either by having alcohol at the event or by the whole chapter arriving at a dry event drunk) to explain to me exactly how they built such a strong brotherhood/sisterhood. (I'll bet they describe events/situations that don't involve alcohol, thereby proving that they CAN interact without alcohol on board)
PsychTau

I'm pretty sure that ALL NPC sororities have a policy against functions where the main focus is to consume alcohol. However, each group may have it worded differently. I do know that no NPC group can host a BYOB event (right?). So anything involving alcohol would have to be Third Party Vendor.

The rest of your post contains some very good points!

PsychTau

Awww thanks Teena, I like your post too! :)

You rent out the bar/hall/whatever, so it is closed to the public.

The bar realizes that there are underage people there and doesn't serve them - they card them. This way the onus is on the bar and not the sorority/fraternity.

It's the same as if you would rent out TGIFriday's or someplace like that - those who are legal can drink, but if you aren't you can't. And from what I've learned on here, there are states where you can go to a bar if you are under 21, you just can't drink.

PA has problems with this because unless it's a restaurant type establishment (i.e. at least 50% of sales is food), underagers are not allowed in, but there are a lot of places you would NEVER think make it over that line and do. (Not that I would actually ingest the food there)

Oh come on, we're getting a little sanctimonious here.

I had fun sisterly moments that involved alcohol. I also had fun sisterly moments that didn't involve alcohol. I am betting nearly everyone on here (including the people from Penn State) would say the same thing.

To say your bonds aren't "real" or "true" if alcohol is involved is pretty darned presumptuous and arrogant. That's kind of like the people on here who say they can't understand how there's real sisterhood when your chapter has so many members/so few members/doesn't have a house etc etc.

Does any other GLO use the wrist bands? Only those over 21 and their over 21 dates wear them, so the bartenders know who can be served and who is not to be served alcohol.

And I also think that 33Girl speaks the truth!

the place we have our formal at uses them

DUH!
 

National officers/regional directors etc READ greekchat. HELLO?!?!?!?! If you've got ABC Sorority from XYZ State U as your screen name, DUH - your chapter is going to be looked at for risk management violations. Maybe your consultant wil show up at one of these third party bar nights and start looking at IDs. Sheeeesh!

Denise

33girl....exactly my point. Not every single moment you have with your chapter (or with other chapters) has to include alcohol in order to bond and have a good time. I hear more and more students host dry events "because we HAVE to" or "because it looks good on our Standards/5 Star/Whatever Plan"...not "because it will be fun."

My point is that some students seem afraid to plan an event and show up sober because they fear that they won't have fun. Often they have a great time, but they can't see that they will have a great time beforehand. Apparently it's not cool to admit that you can have fun without alcohol anymore (whether you are greek or not)...and that's a shame.

Quote:

To say your bonds aren't "real" or "true" if alcohol is involved is pretty darned presumptuous and arrogant. That's kind of like the people on here who say they can't understand how there's real sisterhood when your chapter has so many members/so few members/doesn't have a house etc etc.

I'm saying that if every single (and I mean every single) time you interact with your brothers/sisters (outside of chapter business meetings) involves alcohol consumption, then the bond isn't complete without alcohol present. Remove alcohol, and the relationship changes. I've seen alums come back to Homecoming events, make a 30 minute appearance, and then disappear to drink with their old drinking buddies. Very little interaction with anyone outside of their original partying group, and even then they are focused on how soon they can get to the bars. I'm sure you've seen 2 or 3 (or more) people who are best friends, but do nothing but drink together. And you've seen people who are best friends, but do all sorts of activities together. It's just a different relationship. I know...I've experienced it. I've had "drinking buddies" and I've had best friends...and they aren't the same relationship.

From my first post:
My point with the above paragraph (it sounds like it wasn't clear) is to use a little "reverse psychology" on these groups. If they keep saying "No one will come if they can't drink" "It won't be fun if we can't drink" "We'll just drink beforehand so we'll have a good time", then I'd turn the question around and ask them how they became so very close to their brothers/sisters. 99% of the time they will talk about situations or events they experienced with each other when alcohol wasn't present...which proves the point that they CAN socialize and have fun without alcohol. Sometimes you have to reframe the situation before they'll "get it" and make changes (or quit complaining about the rules! :))

Don't get me wrong...I had some great times with my fellow Greeks when alcohol was present. But we had some great times completely sober too. It seems like ALL college students these days can't see the great times they have when sober. THAT is what bothers me.

Overall I think it's a student developmental issue...but it's one that GLO's can address by giving members the opportunity to enjoy themselves without alcohol. We've just got to get them to see it first.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying that the above attitudes are GLOBAL...some individuals/groups/campsuses don't have the above issues. I'm not assuming that every single college student falls into the above categories. Take what works, leave the rest).

PsychTau

FYI
 

This portion of the discussion was moved from a thread in the Rush forum.

For original context, please see:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=70661

Our chapter exec knows our ages, but we have contracts signed with the owners of the bar before every party dealing with liability, specifically for the reason that IF something were to happen (which it never has), then Alpha Phi is not responsible. I guess it somehow works out that the bouncers who check the IDs then assume responsibility.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Again, I'm sorry.

Who hires the bouncers? You guys? The bar? In most cases, it's the bar, right? If the bar hired them, then they'd be responsible. If it were you guys, then you'd be responsible, right? Is there an independent bouncer company that operates for the sole purpose of working the door at frat and sorority parties?

Dunno, it's been my experience as a bartender that these bouncers are entrusted and most likely under some kind of responsiblity of the bar because these are the freaking people who have the first say as to who gets to drink and NOT.

I just find it hard to believe because any bar who cares about its business and reputation would give a shit about a) not getting slapped with fines and b) not getting stiffed with monetary penalties just because some fraternity and/or sorority wanted to have a function at their venue.

We always had a bouncer at the door checking IDs (provided by the bar/place we'd have things) as well as a few members of exec checking the guestlist and verifying who was or wasn't 21. Even though the bouncer was responsible for checking IDs, we had our own people to make sure that someone didn't get by with a fake. I know it stinks for people who aren't 21, but they can suck it up and not drink at the bar. It's not that difficult. Besides, I'd rather have the under 21 members not drink than have them drink and ruin things for everyone in the future.

You are killing me Psychtau2. You are absolutely killing me.

Every meeting that an organization holds is alcohol free. Every initiation is alcohol free. Every school workshop is alcohol free. Every class the members share is alcohol free. Every time they sit to lunch in the school cafeteria its alcohol free. Every interaction in the halls . .. etc . .. you get the point.

Our members have no problems socializing with each other . . . sober. Most of their interactions are sober.

However, at social events that traditionally and culturally have alcohol . . people like to have alcohol present.

Alcohol reduces stress and increases social interaction. Alcohol reduces artificially imposed inhibitions. Alcohol is a hell of a social lubricant for many people.

Alcohol can help people dance that don't dance. Alcohol enables shy people to talk to members of the opposite sex.

We tend to want alcohol present at events that traditionally have alcohol involved and that encompasses people outside our specific organziation.

Psychtau2, you seem to take the viewpoint that alcohol is some evil . . maybe a necessary evil . . but an evil nontheless. Why do you view it so?

Alcohol is a value neutral component to a social event. As such . . why is it bad to have it present?

If you are uncomfortable with alcohol you don't have to drink. If you and your friends think that alcohol weakens your friendship . . you don't have to drink.

But why should the rest of us be denied access to alcohol if we want it?

And how does it weaken our bonds, our friendships, our quality of life?

Does it do that just because you believe it weakens your bonds, friendships, and life quality?


Sorry about the rambling, but its 5am . . sigh . .

PS: what happened to psychtau1?

I am seriously going to frame this post because OMGWTFBBQ I think this is the ONLY time I'm ever going to agree with James.

Alright...alright...so we agree to disagree....But let me state some background info for my posts:

1. Alcohol in and of itself is not evil. I imbibe often.
2. Yes, college students drink. I did.
3. My earlier posts was a response to someone else's comment that at least one of the Penn State sororities apparently believe that no other fraternity would want to attend a social/mixer with them unless alcohol is available. Presumably because it won't be fun.
4. I have seen chapters that are totally dysfunctional together when the alcohol isn't present (granted, this is not every single chapter. But I've seen this). Very few consistently show up to meetings or ritual, no one hangs out together...they literally don't know what to do with themselves at an event where alcohol isn't present. When they have to be at a "dry" event, they pregame beforehand. When you observed the overall situation, you could see that one common denominator there was alcohol. They became totally different people when it was present. It was kinda painful to watch. Sure...alcohol is a social lubricant and maybe each person in that chapter was so socially inept that's what they needed in order to interact with others. However, I don't think that just because "college students drink" (which is a fact that I'm not arguing) doesn't mean we can't continue to have conversations with them...encourage them to think outside the box...talk about alternatives...show them that they don't always need that "social lubricant"....give them tools to increase their social skills...teach them how to be responsible. When you are an educator or work with students you are always having these types of conversations. I thought we could have one of those here as well.
5. It's probably hard to understand where I'm coming from unless you have seen and experienced what I have...just like it's hard to understand where you're coming from because I haven't seen or experienced what you have.
6. And no matter what....no matter how many times people tell me "college students drink. If you can't deal with that, maybe you shouldn't be dealing with them"...I refuse to dismiss the fact that FOUR college students from my small school went to the hospital for alcohol poisioning from the same party on the same night simply by saying "college students drink". I can deal with college students drinking. I can't deal with them dying.
7. Honestly, (at least for my groups I work with) I wish that it was easier and cheaper to have Third Party Vendor events instead of BYOB. Third Party takes some of the pressure off of the chapters in regards to controlling/securing the alcohol, deciding when to cut people off, intervening safely with extremely drunk guests, security at doors, etc. I think chapters can have more fun at those types of events.
8. The "PsychTau" screename messed up and wouldn't let me log in (several months ago) and so I just went to "PsychTau2". However, I think one of my computers still has "PsychTau"
cookied because sometimes it shows up.

There's a lot more background information/observations I have made, but this would get entirely too long to type it all here. My opinions are based on my observations...not scientifically conducted research. They are also affected by the area of the US I have lived in. Had I lived/gone to school/worked somewhere else I'm sure I would have seen different things that would affect my opinions.

I WANT my students to enjoy college and have fun and drink if they want to. That's fine. BUT...I expect them to not be stupid and to keep themselves and each other safe. I'd rather have conversations about safe alcohol use with them than "micromanage" every event they have.

PsychTau

i'm going to jump in here and agree with psychtau. i, like her, work on campus. i also advise greeks....at a rather small, rural campus.

i see her point. I talk to students ALL THE TIME whose life seems to revolve around alcohol. convesations start with "at this party...." "there's a party....." "my guys won't come if there's no alcohol" and so on.

i have nothing against alcohol. i even like it and have had a few stupid drunk moments in the last year and half. yes, i agree with a lot of the things james said. you just need to see our point of view when we are talking to these students day in and day out and alcohol pops into about 80% of our conversations, especially when it involves some sort of out of class social activity.

heck, there have been some in class moments too. students go to class drunk, they go to meetings drunk, they go to work drunk, they come to visit me drunk (not often, but a couple of times and not just at my current campus). and they are at parties drunk, they go to the bars and get drunk, etc. there are plenty of opportunities for them to drink and socialize with members of the other sex, so to complain that for ONE NIGHT for just a few hours, they cannot drink and make such a big freakin' deal about it is STUPID.

i don't think alcohol is evil. like many things, it is bad when consumed in excess. i just don't understand why students complain so much about not being able to drink like 5-10 nights of the year when they can pretty much drink every other night of the year.

For those calling BS on the A Phi rules, she's not that far off. Generally speaking, when the girls in the chapter I advise have a party, the security is responsible for checking IDs and it's the company's responsibility -- plus the responsibility of the sober sisters in the chapter-- to make sure people don't drink underage. However, the only parties liable in this case are the bartenders and security companies.

Now, I can't say for sure whether her chapter uses sober sisters and practices appropriate Watchcare (not going to argue about it publicly), but I think my sister is on the right track about explaining how they handle RM issues with third party vendors. Suffice it to say, our International office is very clear on what is and what is not allowed, and it sounds to me like they're following our rules. She may just not be explaining them clearly.

(Sometimes being the advisor of a Canadian chapter is challenging. When it comes to drinking, this is one instance when I jump for joy that we're in Canada).

Yes, our chapter does always have four sober sisters at every party/formal/hayride, any event with alcohol. The job of our sober sisters is basically to keep an eye out on all the girls and if someone gets TOO drunk, they have the authority to order them to leave the party. They're also supposed to be the ones to call for help if that is ever needed (which it never has been).

My chapter was under fire last year for risk management issues and hazing, and trust me, we do everything by Alpha Phi standards now, because if not, our charter is revoked.

The bars use their own bouncers, and it is up to them to allow girls in according to their IDs. We generally have our parties at bars that are 21+, and when this is the case, underage girls get a wristband so they can not drink at the party and are ordered to leave once the party is over and the bar is open to the public.

I'm just curious, honest question, but if you have sober sisters who job is presumably to prevent underage drinking, if some one does drink, doesn't the sorority have some liability then? By providing sober sisters does that assume responsibility? Just curious.

Saying the sorority isn't liable isn't really truthful in any of these circumstances. You can bet your house that if something happened, the group would be a named party in the lawsuit. Whether or not they are liable would be a matter for a jury to decide. So these false senses of security and passing off the liability to the bar are just that, false. If a sorority sponsored the event, that would be more than enough to establish a prima facie case, and enough to get the sorority as a party in the trial.

Thanks! That's kind of what I've been wondering about.
:)
E

We've seen suits on these pages where everyone from an organizations headquarters staff to the parents of individual participants have been named.

There is no way that I've heard of to completely cover your organization -- or yourself for that matter.

The best you can do is to reduce the liability as much as possible by making the right rules and decisions and following them.

That last part is often the problem.