Nine Hospitalized with Alcohol Poisoning (Fraternities' Party, U. of Colorado)
 

Yep. Here it is, the story we've been expecting this fall, but sort of hoping we wouldn't see. Nine underage women were hospitalized with alcohol poisoning after drinking at a party given by two U. of Colorado fraternities.

A CBS station in Denver has the story:

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/loc...269202942.html

The story helpfully points out that the hospitalizations took place just about a year after the death of a U. of Colorado fraternity pledge due to alcohol.

As I recall, there were assorted events on campus associated with the anniversary of the pledge's death, with accompanying pleas, promises, and so on about drinking legally, safely, responsibly.

Seems like that ol' overpowering thirst and maybe a casual attitude toward serving the underaged got the better of all those expressed good intentions.

how sad....
it appears no one has learned anything at all.

Of course the most important thing involved here is keeping everyone safe, but the other thing to consider is how someone, or a group of someones, actions affect others -- in this case, the entire Greek System at Colorado. In truth, these actions could have an even greater effect as other administrations at other institutions watch what is going on in Boulder vis-a-vis the IFC disregarding the new Administration rules, etc.

Here's the story from AP. Read the last paragraph. This incident plays right into the University's hands...

"BOULDER (AP) - At least seven of nine University of Colorado underage coeds who were hospitalized this weekend after a night of heavy drinking attended parties held at two fraternities, a year after a fraternity pledge died from alcohol poisoning, police said Monday.

Police issued nuisance party citations to the Sigma Pi and Phi Kappa Tau fraternities for the parties late Friday and early Saturday morning, Boulder police spokeswoman Julie Brooks said.

"To have this many hospitalizations for alcohol on any given night is unusual," Brooks said. "It's too early to talk charges (but) it's unusual enough that we need to take a stronger look at it."

After-hours phone messages left at the fraternities' international headquarters were not immediately returned. Adrian Fryxell, 20, president of Phi Kappa Tau, did not immediately answer an e-mail sent by The Associated Press.

Police responded to the first call of a sick woman at a sorority house at about 1 a.m. Saturday. Another call came in from the same sorority house a short time later of a woman passed out in a hallway.

"We figured there were other girls transported (to hospitals) by other means," Brooks said. Police checked the hospitals and found three other women who were hospitalized after heavy drinking.

Two additional sorority members -- one found at her apartment and another who was transported to the hospital -- were also found by Boulder police.

Campus police were also investigating two additional cases, bringing the total to nine.

Brooks said eight of the nine were either 18 or 19 years old. Their blood-alcohol level was not released but Brooks said officers, who have the discretion to take intoxicated people to a detox center or place them in the custody of sober people, felt the women needed to be hospitalized.

It was also unclear how much or where the women had to drank. One woman told police she only remembered having one drink.

"We're very disappointed to hear of this," said university spokeswoman Pauline Hale, "although we are encouraged that medical help was sought, that at least part of our message was getting through."

Last September, Lynn Gordon "Gordie" Bailey Jr. was found dead inside the off-campus Chi Psi house in Boulder after a night of heavy drinking.

In response to the death, the university asked sororities and fraternities to change several policies, including delaying freshman rush until spring semester and requiring all houses to have live-in advisers. The 16 fraternities cut ties with the school instead, forgoing many privileges given to other student groups, including free use of campus facilities and publicity on university materials.

School officials also advised parents to discourage their students from rushing in the fall.

"It underscores the need as we have outlined in our agreement for fraternal organizations for the need for live-in advisers... and the need to defer the rush for the spring season when freshman have enough experience to make a wise decision."

This says nothing.

They "attended" parties at fraternity houses - it doesn't say they were there all night long drinking there all night long. Nor did their friends say that - just that they had 15 shots. No distinct when or where.

And these were women at a fraternity house. Women do not rush fraternities. How would deferred rush have helped them?

That looks like the old Phi Delta Theta house, I know they were just booted a few years back too? I couldn't tell if Phi Kappa Tau is in there now? Either way, sweet house...nicest (and biggest) on that campus....

It doesn't matter. In the fabled "Court of Public Opinion," damage is done.

Oh, and the fact is that the women are underage, so they broke the law.

Not good news for our friends up the road.

Well, considering the fraternities there have already shown that they will stand up for themselves, I doubt they are going to let themselves be strung up by the balls by a ridiculous concept equivalent of "Janie said Mary said Susie got really blotto at the Mu Mu house OMGWTFBBQ!!"

If this shows anything, it shows that the school is still doing a crappy job taking care of its students and informing them about dangers out there.

33,

With all due respect, we're talking about a state that had at least three or four alcohol ralated deaths last year in college settings -- including the two high profile cases at Colorado and Colorado State (Bailey and Spady).

Then, there was the story in the past week or so about seven or eight fraternities and sororities being sanctioned to different degrees at Colorado State for alcohol violations.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=70192

These things are being talked about in the Legislature and each incident becomes front page news.

In my opinion, the IFC at C.U. made a huge mistake which only tends to keep this story in front of the public. There are times when you walk away from a battle and live to fight another day.

At some point this whole situation could blow up, and the results aren't likely to be good for the C.U. fraternities.

My question still hasn't been answered. These were women drinking in a fraternity house. Fraternities do not rush women. How would deferred rush or any of the other ideas (and I do use the term loosely) put forth by Colorado's administration have helped them?

I'm not denying this school has a drinking problem, but it's the whole school, not just the fraternities. Why should they change their policies when no one else is?

Sheila,

It's apples and oranges.

It simply doesn't make a bit of difference, because that's not how the public and the Legislature (who funds the University to a large extent) feel about it.

They see the bad publicity and demand change.

Whether deferred rush makes a difference or not is an open question in my mind -- but the Legislature, University Administration and much of the general public buy it.

IFC can stand up to the university right into its' own extinction.

I have to be honest, some of the Greek alumni I know and talk to are about ready to wash their hands of the whole C.U. situation. Granted, they are mostly Delts who have had a bad experience with our chapter there. As you know, it's been closed three times and will probably never recolonize. They feel that the University has been so hands off for so long that the entire system is not worth bothering with. And that's with a C.U. Delt as President of the University.

I don't see very many potential good outcomes in this situation.

I would be interested to see if LXAAlum agrees with me since he is more active locally (I think) than I am right now.

Well, the IFC pretty much IS extinct right now as a school org. The school isn't recognizing them because they didn't kowtow to deferred rush. Correct?

Apparently "school recognition" doesn't make a difference to the students at all, or to many of the fraternities' headquarters.

Colorado painted themselves into this corner - they had a sort of bizarre "well you're recognized but you're really kind of independent but not really truly" relationship with the Greeks, and now they want to exercise more control and, rightly so, are getting flipped the bird. It would be like me going to visit Dad 33 for the weekend and him trying to enforce a 10 PM curfew.

I'm not talking about as a school organization -- I'm talking about extinct, period.

I agree that the University painted itself into a corner. I've used those very words myself.

That doesn't make any difference anymore either, because the situations and rules have changed. With the death of Gordy Bailey the pressure for regulation became unbearable. The other concurrent dynamics at the school made the situation worse.

In the long run, a battle between the University and IFC will be won by the former. The IFC, if it is extinct, can't do anything to help its' members. It would better serve if it looked for creative ways to live within the rules, and as it succeeds, work on changing them -- other groups at other schools have done it.

Police responded to the first call of a sick woman at a sorority house at about 1 a.m. Saturday. Another call came in from the same sorority house a short time later of a woman passed out in a hallway.

"We figured there were other girls transported (to hospitals) by other means," Brooks said. Police checked the hospitals and found three other women who were hospitalized after heavy drinking.

Two additional sorority members -- one found at her apartment and another who was transported to the hospital -- were also found by Boulder police.

Campus police were also investigating two additional cases, bringing the total to nine.

Brooks said eight of the nine were either 18 or 19 years old. Their blood-alcohol level was not released but Brooks said officers, who have the discretion to take intoxicated people to a detox center or place them in the custody of sober people, felt the women needed to be hospitalized.

It was also unclear how much or where the women had to drank. One woman told police she only remembered having one drink.

This article provides absolutely no evidence to support an assertion that any of these women were drinking at a fraternity house. I'd hope that before people get all up in arms about this they'd have some facts.

"At least seven of nine University of Colorado underage coeds who were hospitalized this weekend after a night of heavy drinking attended parties held at two fraternities, a year after a fraternity pledge died from alcohol poisoning, police said Monday.

Police issued nuisance party citations to the Sigma Pi and Phi Kappa Tau fraternities for the parties late Friday and early Saturday morning, Boulder police spokeswoman Julie Brooks said.'

I guess this isn't "proof," but it is from a police spokesperson. While she doesn't specifically say the women were drinking at the two houses, it is certainly implied. I don't think even the Boulder Police would go out on that kind of limb without reason.

Or, am I missing something?

I don't think you're missing something, but I just don't see where there is any indication that they drank at the parties. It is implied, but to me "implied" and "supported by evidence" are very different things.

-------------------
"One woman told police she only remembered having one drink."
-------------------

But she is a creditable witness that she was at a fraternity house?

Understood. That may be a reportage problem, though. I don't see the police spokesperson pointing to the GLO's unless they have evidence of some kind.

With Co. Un. mishandleing many things, this is just another nail in a coffin.

It really doesnt make a damn who was at fault or implied, it still shows up on the News Media.

You can argue till Your are blue in the face, it is a problem and no one really seems to be able to work with it.

If The Adm. keeps mismanaging their whole programs such as Greeks and Sports Venues, then Just close the School. Well, not really, but get a change of Management in there who can work with and have enuff balls to do it!

Greeks can be a very important part of any Campus to be sure.
But, The Un. Of Co. is a total cluster F***! And, as they go being the Flag Ship Un. of the State, others feel that they can get away with it too!

It is a Co. Snow Ball running down the Mountain and killing Greeks there.

There needs to be some changes there and I guess You know what I reccommend!

The Colorado Daily mentions that memory of one drink as an element in the investigation: police say they will be asking for tox reports to be released to see if date-rape drugs were involved, although it sounds like there's only a "slight chance" of drugs:

According to Julie Brooks, public information officer for the Boulder Police Department . . . .

"It's under investigation just because it's unusual for us to have so many girls end up in the hospital," said Brooks.

Brooks said that drugs, commonly known as "date-rape drugs," might have played a role in the hospitalization of the women.
"We do have one woman who said that she only remembers having one drink and then remembers waking up in the ambulance," she said. "That's really the only one right now, that because of her comments and that she can only recall having one drink, that appears like there could be any merit to that."

. . . Brooks said even though there is a slight chance drugs played a part in the event, it is more likely it is alcohol-related. However, she continued, when the results from the toxicology tests are produced, the women will need to release their medical records to the police to determine whether or not drugs were found in their systems.

http://www.coloradodaily.com/article...lder/news1.txt

I think many of you are not using your critical thinking skills.

Any admission to the emergency room for alcohol, is alcohol poisoning. Even if they release you in a few hours.

OBviously the alcohol poisoning we think about is the life threatening one, and honestly is usually pretty fatal.

Other types of alcohol poisoning . . well most of us call it a really bad hang over . . its when we tell God we will never drink again if he only he spares us from the awful sick feeling.

Also, its common for police to take a person who is intoxicated to the point of being impaired to the emergency room . . . its a liability issue for them. What if something happened to you?

I know many ER personel that have complained about police doing that . . because most times the person goes home in a few hours with an awful hangover.

Further, many college administrations are now emphasizing that people should definitely take their friend to the ER if they are exhibiting signs of excessive drinking:

Slurring words. Not making sense. Falling down. Passing out at 4am. Irresponsible behavior. Etc.

Thats guarenteed to make inexperienced people want to take their friends to the ER. If we had taken everyone we saw in that state to the ER . . well that would have been a lot of people.

OH! And no none ever died. However, some had really bad hang overs.

Damn people . . grow up and think a little please?

Percentage wise, 15 shots isn't going to kill an adult woman. however, it might make her friendlier.

b/c I like to prove James's point
 

One of my former band buddie was a bar two weeks ago and she was there with some so-called friends, not best friends, but more of acquitances. She hadn't ate much all day but decided that tequila sunrises were her friend.

Now nobody can actually document how many she had that evening. But being a very poor grad student I believe the number, along with her tolerance, would be low.

There's been a lot of talk about "drunk behavior" with the recent death of a UK athlete. And each sorority/fraternity and large organizations are rallying behind these meetings the university has been having. Ours is next week, woohoo!

But anyway, at some point in the night one of the bar staffers said "that girl is way too drunk" after my friend had puked in the bathroom. She then became dehydrated and dry heaving. Her "friend" decided it best with the bar staffers to call the ambulance and take her to the nearest hospital.

Now this only is in agreeance with James BECAUSE once there the hospital staff concluded "nope, not alcohol poisoning" and "just drunk". She was taken home an hour after arrival.

The sucky part of this story is like most females my friend did not bring a purse, only her license and college id. So the hospital billed her parents in full for her 1 hour "she's not got alcohol poisoning".

Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be careful. But sometimes certain people need to watch and not overact. Because in reality, that's what got one of our athletes killed over a month ago.

According to an article in the Rocky Mountain News it looks like the people who did some of the reporting / 911 calling included a guy on IFC party patrol duty and friends/sorority sisters of women in Delta Gamma and Alpha Phi.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...115391,00.html

Find a BAC calculator online, put in 15 of any drinks (I did screwdrivers, because shots of tequila weren't an option) over 4 hours for a woman who is 150 pounds (and that's a higher weight for college women) and you get a BAC of .359, which puts you between :
0.30 g/210 liters of breath - At this level most people will lose conciousness.
0.40 g/210 liters of breath - At this level most people will become comatose and may die.

I'd say it's valid to take someone to the hospital at this point. If she's a petite girl of 110 pounds, then you're at .40. 15 drinks, 4 hours.

If it's a male of 170 pounds, then you're talking .288. Big difference.

Point is, 15 drinks can kill a woman.

Better to be safe than sorry.

The hospitals report many more cases that weekend than "normal" ones. Your argument(s) sould apply to all weekends, so there was still more hospital activity.

The program given earlier may or may not have had an effect on the number. There's no way to know. If it did, that's probably good.

At least seven of the nine women were allegedly at the same two fraternity parties. If that gun isn't smoking, it's at least pointing toward the two groups.

The thought of possible drugs had occurred to me when I read about the woman who could "only remeber" having one drink, but it's way to early to point that finger without further investigation.

Sorry, James. I can't agree with you on this one. It doesn't really matter how you define alcohol poisoning, some problems arose out of these parties and an unusual number of women for a given area/university ended up in the ER.

Re: b/c I like to prove James's point
 

They should be able to refile the claim and have it paid by her parents' insurance if she's still on it. They need to ask the HR director at their workplace for help on this.

/insurance tip

As to AGDee's calculations -- news reports say that at least one of the women had blood alcohol of .3. That sounds reasonably serious. A 911 tape that's been released is a call from the Delta Gamma house saying that a member is passed out on the floor and the caller can't wake her up, which sure doesn't sound good either.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...40/detail.html

Incidentally, some of the news reports say the party at the Sigma Pi house was "invitation only" with two sororities. I'm not sure exactly what the arrangement was, but it may be interesting to see if it turns out that this was essentially a jointly-planned mixer of some kind. In other words, is this possibly one of those situations where the headlines say "fraternity party" but a sorority was a partner in the party arrangements? I'm not saying it was, but it may be worth watching as the story unfolds.





















.

Excerpted from the Rocky Mountain News...

"Frats vote to ban parties
CU groups make decision after reports that students needed medical attention

By Sarah Langbein, Rocky Mountain News
September 28, 2005

University of Colorado fraternities voted Monday night to prohibit parties at their houses, after reports that nine co-eds needed medical attention after heavy drinking at two of their parties.

At least seven of the young women, ages 18 and 19, were hospitalized early Saturday. At least one had a blood-alcohol level of 0.3 percent, said Ryan Lynch, internal vice president of the Interfraternity Council, who said he reviewed police reports...

...The news comes just one year after CU student Lynn "Gordie" Bailey and Colorado State University student Samantha Spady drank themselves to death. It also comes less than a month after CSU disciplined eight Greek houses for parties known as "Rise and Ralph..."

...Just before 1 a.m. Saturday, Lynch said he placed the first call to 911. He and other members of IFC were patrolling fraternity house parties to ensure regulations were being followed.

They looked for sober brothers, checked for the availability of nonalcoholic beverages and scanned the crowds for intoxicated partygoers, just as they do on any weekend. At Sigma Pi, all seemed to be in order, Lynch said.

But when he stepped outside, he witnessed a member of the Delta Gamma sorority fall and cut her chin.

"She was clearly intoxicated," he said. "And speaking with (her friends) it was clear she needed medical help."

Lynch called 911.

Then a second emergency call came from Delta Gamma, which said a member was passed out in the lobby of the sorority house. (DeltAlum adds: other reports say that sorority sisters were unable to wake her up)

While police and medics were attending to her, they were alerted to an intoxicated woman at Alpha Phi, a sorority on the same street.

As police began to piece together the drunken evening, they learned the women attended parties at Sigma Pi and Phi Kappa Tau. Then, they learned of three more women who already had been taken to the hospital, Brooks said. It was unclear whether they had a sorority affiliation or whether they'd been to the fraternity parties, Brooks said.

The night didn't end there. Campus police told city officers they attended to two intoxicated women on campus. Then, yet another 911 call was made, this time by a worried roommate. Police responded to a private home in the 2900 block of East Aurora Avenue, where another member of Delta Gamma was intoxicated, police said...

...The parties at Sigma Pi and Phi Kappa Tau began Friday night.

At Sigma Pi, it was an invitation-only get-together with sororities Delta Gamma and Kappa Kappa Gamma. Bring your own beer, guests were told. Partygoers said IDs were checked at the door and wristbands were distributed to those of legal age to drink. Cans of beer were served from behind the bar. Cases of bottled water were available. (DeltAlum adds: Sounds like they did some things right)

At Phi Kappa Tau, the theme was "Heaven or Hell." Women in scantily clad devil and angel outfits arrived at the fraternity house. Fraternity members patrolled the front door. Beer and hard alcohol were consumed.

Marc D. Stine, Greek advocate at CU, spoke with members of both fraternities after the parties. He learned that individual frat brothers at Sigma Pi provided alcohol to minors, and at Phi Kappa Tau the party became unmanageable. There was no control of the front door, Stine said.

By Monday, rumors circulated that the women were slipped the date rape drug. Police denied those allegations but said it would be part of their investigation because one young woman reported having only one drink before becoming highly intoxicated. None of the women reported being sexually assaulted, Brooks said...

...Lynch, the IFC vice president, said his organization is frustrated with the weekend events. Just four days before the parties, members of the CU Greek system crowded Mackey Auditorium to listen to a talk about hazing and responsible alcohol consumption.

"We thought we made significant strides forward, and we have," Lynch said. "And then this."

The frustration resulted in a Monday night vote to keep parties out of fraternity houses, at least until the end of the semester, so that third-party venues, such as bars, can better monitor alcohol consumption, Stine said."

Actually I think you are right on this point . . an adult male that drinks 15 shots is probably just havingn a great time.

Updated
 

Listened to KOA radio discuss this yesterday, and they had the Panhel President on - she stated this was a BYOB party as well, which doesn't excuse the behavior, but does point the finger away from the fraternities to a certain (but not absolute) extent.

Secondly, after the news announcement that all IFC fraternities were self-imposing a ban, news is out that CU told IFC to ban parties as well.

I also had a good discussion in my morning class about this - some UNC greeks are in my class. Apparently this phenomenon is becoming more popular due to the better taste of hard alcohol drinks, which in their and my opinion, makes drinking hard alcohol all the more dangerous.

The radio hosts were perplexed as to why this is happening more and more often - callers were trying to explain that part of it is the goal of drinking these days: to get as hammered as possible and to get puking drunk, because that is "cool" :eek:

Others stated it is the rebellious nature of teens/young adults to "one-up" the previous generation - but, to what extent do you want to "one-up" yourself? To death? It's very concerning.

Not to mention the "it can't happen to me" mentality that I see in my students attitudes - but, that is changing thanks to this CU incident.

Education and awareness is not working, folks. Cracking down harder on the greek system is not working. This problem is getting worse, if anything. Any other ideas on how to stop this?

I don't know thats its getting worse actually.

And this is seperate from my normal antipathy towards adults trying to manage other adults' lives . . .

I think what happens is that we are looking for a reason why this behavior doesn't change.

When we look for a reason we start positing answers that may not be correct.

Often times things in real life are counter-intuitive.

The average person believes that if you educate people that drinking is basically bad, thats its illegal if you are underage, and that it can kill you . . . people should stop drinking.

So the statistic should bear that out right?

But we don't find that to be the case.

In fact, that expecation doesn't even match the models.

We know that in oppressive cultures the behaviors that are being suppresed become more atractive in direct proportion to their taboo.

At least in the cases of vices that bring pleasure.

I am digressing a bit . .. but education has worked, less people drive intoxicated and the percentages of people dying of alcohol poisoning aren't any greater than before.


As far as "drink until you puke," that has always been there, I am not sure its any greater now than before.

I think we are much more likely to take our friends to the hospital or panic now than ever before.

But you guys have to remember, out of all the people that drink, out the many times they do drink, very few die. Like count them on one hand.

There are very few over the coutner drugs that have that safety margin.

7700 people a year die from non-steroidal-anti-inflammatories . . . advil, tylenol etc.

I'm not so sure it's getting worse, but it seems that way - I think this is due to the major publicity attached to these events these days - we didn't hear much about it when I was in college.

I disagree that education is working except for the DUI angle - if the percentages of people dying aren't greater, they certaintly aren't decreasing, so I don't think it's "working" to solve the problem. Best case, it's "status quo".

The drink till you puke - this is different - sure we got drunk and puked in college - usually just one time. That was enough to teach you not to do it again. But two callers on that radio show, both college students, stated that is the goal these days - not just a one-time deal. It seems a perverted version of "boat races" from when I was in college.

Taking friends to the hospital - we did that in college, but that doesn't seem to happen as much today, especially in Colorado; here's why: if an underage person or a college student is admitted for alcohol poisoning, the police and campus officials are automatically notified. There is a push in Colorado for an "amnesty program" to ensure people that get in this much trouble with alcohol can still be taken to the hospital, but, not having notifications made to police/administrators, unless there was a traffic accident/assault/other criminal act involved. I completely agree with this idea - it could only help save more lives.

Tell someone NO, and they then do just the opposite.

Please, dont tell Me this is something new with Teens!!!:rolleyes:

Date Rape Drug in Hospitalized Women, Police Say -- UPDATE 10/6/05

The police chief reported that GHB, a date rape drug, was found in two of the women hospitalized. In one case, the drug was at a potentially fatal level.

The university has increased the amount of the reward offered in this case.

See the media story at:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...95/detail.html

IF it turns out that the drug was administered at either of the fraternity parties, this does not bode well for Colorado fraternities. Even if the "who" and "where" are never determined, there will still be a big cloud hanging over fraternities there, most likely.

The C.U. situation just gets worse and worse.

I just saw the update on the local news. They're still waiting for results for the other women. They showed a sorority and fraternity house, but I don't know if the houses they showed had anything to do with the results they have so far.

I hope they find the assholes who did this.

There is always a possibility that the girls took the stuff themselves. I don't know how it is in the midwest, but in the NE thats not an uncommon drug. People ended up in the hospital frequently.

What would be sad is if the girls did the drugs themselves but were afraid to say it because they would be admitting to doing a schedule I drug. A felony.

In that case the fraternity would get a really bad rap. Thats also something that has happened before.

The two houses which showed on both channels 4 and 9 were the two fraternity houses. One of the reports (I think Channel 9) also showed the sorority houses and apartment complex where one of the women lived. The story was the lead on Channels 4 (CBS) and 7 (ABC) and was the second story on Channel 9 (NBC) on the early newscasts.

While it is possible the women took the drugs themselves, the likelyhood begs to differ. Why would one woman tell the cops she only remembered having one drink -- which is part of what set off the speculation in the first place? As was pointed out, it's a felony.

Given the deaths in Colorado last year, the University/IFC controversy and the other problems in Boulder, this is a huge story. It would be nice if this turns out well for the fraternities involved -- but I don't think that will happen. There's too much smoke here to not expect any fire.

Well if I was a girl and I did a readily available drug that is associated with date rape and stood the chance of being arrested, I would say I remember taking one drink and nothing else - someone must have dropped something in my drink.

America truly believes in innocent before guilty except in rape cases.

-Rudey

Just to keep it clear. There have been no reported charges of rape (at least as of last evening) in this case.

Both you and James have reasonable points regarding the drugs, and I hope you're right, but I'm not counting on it.