Should Legacies omit That Fact on Recruitment Applications?
 

Here's something else that appears to be a trend with the new release figures: legacies who get widely cut because the other sororities figure they'll go their legacy sorority, This is okay if that's where they want to go and they get a bid but other times, the legacy sorority and the other sororities release them. These are women who would be snapped up otherwise.

What do you think? Should legacies leave that information off their applications? And just make sure that the legacy chapter finds out by way of recs?

I have known of too many outstanding legacies who were cut down to 1 or 2 parties after first invitationals and it's getting worse every year.

We have a legacy introduction form which is to be completed on legacies, so we don't need to find out the information from a Panhellenic recruitment application. I've also heard that some Panhellenics black out that section, except for the sorority to which it applies. That makes sense to me, especially at schools where so many PNMs are legacies.

I would not recommend that a PNM just leave her legacies off of her recruitment app. Simply because the sororities most likely will find out anyway, and it may be seen as dishonest. Also, some chapters might be offended that a PNM would not list them as her legacy.

Good point. Maybe Panhellenic should stop asking.

That's what we do, and I think it works pretty well. The only times we know that a girl is a legacy to another house are when (1) She tells us or (2) She has a sister who is currently an XYZ. News about in house legacies spreads pretty fast.

I don't know about other schools, but at UGA being a legacy doesn't really mean that much. We don't cut girls that are legacies to other groups because we know that she is not absolutely going there. Plus, nothing is more fun than getting someone else's legacy...especially when she's in house. ;)

This is probably a stupid question, but is this literally blacked out? Because if so, the other sororities would know she is a legacy, but just wouldn't know to which org or orgs. The damage would still be done (so to speak.) Actually, why does PH ask if a PNM is a legacy? It seems that this is information that is really between the PNM and the GLO. If a PNM is really a legacy, then the appropriate parties will know how to get that information to the chapter.

I am a volleyball coach, and a few years back when I was working with high school girls, I helped some with their rush apps. Some were embarrassed that they left the legacy section blank - thinking this made them look less desireable, as not being a Greek blue blood, I guess. They didn't understand that not being a legacy could help them during recruitment.

Also, my biological little sisters went to a school that didn't have my GLO (but it does now! :D ). Anyway, the first to rush got a fair rush, because her status as an AOII legacy did nothing to hurt her, since we weren't on campus. My second sister though - totally different story. In my opinion, she is the girl every chapter would want. After first stage no one dropped her, second stage, every chapter dropped her except her legacy chapter and the smallest group on campus. She is fantastic and went on to be Top 10 freshman, Greek Woman of the Year, Summa cum Laude, the list goes on and on. With all that, everybody dropped her because she is a legacy! It makes for an unfair rush because the GLOs basically make the choice for her. The basic unspoken rule at that campus is, if you are sure you don't want your legacy house, cut it immediately or everyone else will cut you, assuming you are going to the legacy chapter. So, the PNM has to make that choice so early on that she can't be making an informed decision.

ETA: It seems that legacy status is part of a campus culture thing. At some campuses it is unbelievably important, and at others it doesn't seem to matter at all.

ETA some more: I said that she was dropped because she was a legacy. Of course I don't actually know that is true. :)

How about a simple box to check - Are you a legacy to any GLO? Do you think that would be more fair?

But what difference does it make? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't know why PH asks. Is there some reason?

For one, someone who's a legacy is more familiar with the social and financial obligations of a GLO as compared to someone who is not. Secondly, it usually means that there won't be parental stress to NOT join.

But shouldn't the social and financial obligations of GLO membership be made clear to ALL PNMs -- I don't think it's safe for anyone to assume that because someone is a legacy, she knows much about sorority membership and responsibilities. That information should be available to everyone going through recruitment, right?

I agree with irishpipes -- if you're a legacy, it's really nobody's business but you and the organization of which you are a legacy. Period. I think it is beyond ridiculous for women to be cut because they are legacies. It's kind of a wacky assumption to think that because someone's mom was an XYZ at the University of Outer Mongolia in the 1970s that Susie Rushee will want to go XYZ at Big 10 U in 2005.

In an ideal world, yes. But again and again, we see that it doesn't really happen that way.

And I agree with this part - to an extent. Most of the pregnant sorority women I've seen post talk about whether they're having a boy or a legacy. So, obviously it's important to quite a few people.

LOL, true. It's another of those things that I imagine differs greatly in the South.

I think it totally depends on the school. When my younger sister went through recruitment at Ole Miss she put AOII and everyone knew me be/c I was a 5th year and they thought she would want AOII. Anyway, she still ended up having a great recruitment and in the end she went AOII. I do know that at some houses at Ole Miss they see that your older sister was a member of ABC sorority and they will automatically release you because they assume you will join that group. I think it is good to put on your recs at least so the chapter knows and I know that one year a legacy didn't put on her recruitment registration form that she was a legacy and that upset the members in the chapter. So, you need to weigh the pro's and con's.

UCF does this on the rush applications. The only way we would know what house the girl was a legacy to was if she told us during recruitment or if her sister was a current member at our school. It eliminated the whole, "Oh, she's an XYZ legacy? She'll probably join XYZ so let's not keep her."

I think that it is important that when the pnm is talking with a chapter member, esp one from a different GLO, that she/he mention that she/he is a legacy but wants to keep her options open. That way, if the application has that she is a legacy and/or the GLO member is still on campus, other groups wouldn't automatically assume she wants to be a WQE either.

On a related note, pnms should definitely remember to not say, before or during recruitment, that "I want QWE" because that is also considered tacky because QWE may not feel the same way.. As many posts on GC have stated, "I wanted QWE but I LOVE TRE".;)

I hadn't thought of Honeychile's point - that having the information could help steer conversations during rush. I guess you wouldn't need to waste precious time discussing very basic Greek life info with someone who already would know from mom or sis.

On those campuses where legacies - and maybe I should be more specific and say "desirable" legacies - routinely get an unfair rush because of their status, the mutual selection process as laid out by NPC is tilted heavily to the side of the GLO, which many PNMs think is the case already.

A little off topic, but... I am not super familiar with the new release figures, except that apparently chapters that are very strong at formal recruitment will have to release a higher number of PNMs early in the rush. Do you think legacy status will be a factor here, since many GLOs give some kind of preferential courtesy to legacies early in the recruitment process? I think many groups will at least give a legacy one invitation as a courtesy. I wonder if this tradition will change if groups don't have space when they are forced to release a lot of pnms. (And I am not at all trying to be the authority on what every GLO does - it just seems that many do the courtesy thing.)

Having been through rush as a legacy, I say yes. For the most part, an organization is going to ask back a girl who has no ties over a girl who is a legacy to another organization, especially when the rubber meets the road. Please note, I said "for the most part," because in numbers and statistics, that is usually the way it happens, just as in "better safe than sorry." And yes, usually some sororities will know if a girl is a legacy to another sorority, but overall, I think it would level the playing field.

I think it should be omitted entirely. You aren't asked on your college applications if you are a legacy to the school... although a legacy may get some behind the scenes preference, depending on the school or the alumni to whom you are a legacy.

There is no reason to admit it, other then the fact you dont want to lie... but it shouldnt be asked... what does their parents collegiac experience have to do with their own... its unnecessary

This goes both ways.

There are alums out there who would be VERY upset if this was taken off applications and the fact that their daughter is a legacy wasn't even considered.

If the PNM really doesn't want to a) worry about riding on Mom's coattails or b) worry about being pigeonholed and dropped from other groups, then it's up to her to omit it. But let's be honest, at some schools if she does she may face ending up with no bid at all.

33 girl - I guess I was assuming that each GLO had its own way to communicate legacy status privately to its chapters. I know AOII has a legacy form that the mom, sister, or grandma sends to the chapter where the PNM is going so they are well aware she is coming through and can treat her accordingly. We don't need the rush application to tell us if she is a legacy to our GLO. Don't all NPC groups have something like that?

Not necessarily.

And even if they do, not all of the moms are aware of it. They might know enough to tell the daughter they were a XYZ at State U, but that's all they know - they have no clue about rec forms or anything like that. (And those are the ones who usually scream the loudest when their daughter doesn't receive a bid.) If we are going to use legacy status as a preferential type of treatment, we can't say it's only for the daughters whose moms/grandmas/sisters have a clue.

Not to mention, there are people out there who are legacies but whose mom/grandma/sister may have passed away and it's hard to get rec forms in the Great Beyond.

The year I filled out my info for recruitment the part about being a legacy to an organization was detachable at the bottom of the form. PH would detach that part of the info for every organization except the one you were a legacy to regardless of whether you were a legacy or not. Its a good way to make sure every girl had the same opportunities with each organization.

Well crzychx that is the best idea yet. I vote for that.

That does seem like a relatively good idea.

In my chapter, I remember us thinking it was very strange (shady even) if we found out that a girl was a legacy to any house but did not include it in her application. Maybe it shouldn't have, but it kind of put up a red flag to us... I guess it just seemed kind of dishonest.

This last part has nothing to do with the post by crzychx- it's just a comment.

Not to be persnickity, but whether or not any of my relatives had gone to X College WAS on at least two of my applications!

I agree that if it is asked for on the app and left blank it seems dishonest. That is why I was leaning towards advocating it not being asked at all. But the tear off thing covers the concerns 33 girl brought up.

That's how we looked at it too (also a small school).

Do you mean considered by chapter's she's not a legacy for?

Because don't most GLO's have legacy intro forms that the member sends in for the PNM?

Personally, I think it's a problem with the women in the chapters who are cutting the PNM's just because they think they'll go to the legacy chapter. Talk about a STUPID reason to cut someone.

Better education is definitely needed.

It's not a problem with the form.

We were always reminded time and time again that just because a rushee is a legacy to a certain sorority does not mean she wants to join it, so I agree with whoever said it's an issue with educating actives about not jumping to conclusions. As a legacy who did not end up joining the house I was a legacy to, I will say that I would've been extremely upset if I'd been cut just because everybody assumed I'd naturally join that particular chapter.

My chapter also took it as a challenge. However, if it did come down to a very crucial cut, I will admit that it would sometimes play a part. (also, a small school)

I remember one girl who went through as an in-house legacy. She was torn between us and them. We preffed her, and found out later that 'peer pressure' from her sister forced her to take the legacy house. She was always super cool with us afterwards though.

Also, there are certainly ways to let the legacy chapter know, without letting ALL the chapters now!

I was a double legacy and I am also glad that I got the chance to take my time and make the decision to join another sorority.

crzychx--I think your idea is the best I've heard yet, and I look forward to suggesting it to the Panhellenic at the school where I advise.

Know I haven't done a formal recruitment in so long but I have heard from greeks (not only my sisters but girls from other chapters) that when they find out a girl is a legacy and she doesn't outright say that she's "going XYZ" that they tend to "rush her harder" in the hopes of "stealing the legacy".

Some legacy's might flat out know they are going a particular house but others (and I think this is more the truth) are just open to the house that makes them the most comfortable. Just b/c your a legacy to one house doesn't mean you will feel the best in it.

I think it was one all of my college apps. And law school I think

No, I meant by the chapter she is a legacy to.

As I said in the other post, all groups don't necessarily have rec forms, and even if they do, not all the moms know how to get a hold of the form or that they need to fill them out. All they know is that the fact they were in the sorority helps their daughter somehow.

There are lots of chapters where rec forms and legacy forms aren't ever seen at all. If you were in one of these and your daughter ends up going to Cutthroat Rush U, no reason for her to get screwed because your sorority experience didn't include these things.

YES.

For example, the postal service at my school is majorly messed up because it's routed through several different offices. Last year we didn't get ANY of the recommendations mailed to us until after first round of recruitment, and I know several other chapters were in the same situation.

There's eleventy billion reasons why legacy intro/recommendation forms may not get into the right hands. Putting the info on the recruitment application is extremely helpful, and without it, we would have ended up accidentally cutting legacies.

honey/dani-- I stand corrected! :)

I still feel that your legacy is your business only. While some chapters delight in "We got a triple XYZ legacy away from XYZ!" there is a subtle notion that a legacy is going to be partial to her legacy chapter-- regardless of whether that's true or not.

It's easier to change the form than change long-standing mind-sets. Then again, you could leave that section blank and still run the rumor mill. A friend of mine was a chapter legacy (her sister was still active in the chapter) and despite having friends in all the other chapters and coming into recruitment with the notion "I don't want to join my sister's sorority because I want to do something on my own," she was heavily cut in round 1 because of her legacy status and in spite of the protests her friends in other chapters threw up when those chapters moved to cut her. It was a very emotional recruitment for that group. The girl ended up joining ADPi and at prefs told me that even if her sister hadn't been a member, she knew this was home-- so all's well that ends well, I suppose-- but there was such trauma earlier in that week!

As an alumna who knows the behind the scenes workings of recruitment here is another reason Panhellenic asks for legacy status- the chapters want it. Plain and simple.

At many Universities, PNMs go through recruitment, even legacies, without a recommendation form. Unless the woman tells us, no one will ever know that she is a legacy. Don't forget that not everyone has moms and grandmothers who talk about their sorority affiliation and who would naturally fill out a recommendation form and/or advise the PNM to talk about this during recuitment.

Most chapters are required to report on how many legacies went thorugh during recuitment and how many joined their chapter. If panhellenic didn't ask for this information, they would be lynched by the chapter alumnae. :D

Finally - having chapters that cut a woman simply because she is a legacy of another chapter is, in my humble opinion, a campus culture. I would argue that changing the culture is going to do more good than eliminating a single piece of information. But then again, I'm not from the south!

And yes, I think legacy status will be very important with the new release figures, particularly with strong chapters, as most legacies are given at least one invitation to a second round as a courtesy.

First of all, welcome to GC, wcoast_DG !

Second, while I agree that we need to know who legs are for statistics sake, I feel it isn't Pan's responsibility to verify legacies-- it is the chapter's responsibility to confirm who their legacies are. That's why we have the Legacy Introduction Forms for ADPi, and I'm sure the other groups have their own versions of this, as well. Just because I as a PNM checked off a box on my recruitment app that I'm a legacy to ABC and XYZ doesn't mean that I am one until I've been verified by the sorority. Or maybe I think I'm a legacy when really I'm not-- more a courtesy like a stepdaughter, niece, cousin (I realize in some orgs these relationships are considered legs-- just using as an example). Or maybe my legacy sister is no longer a member in good standing with the sorority.

And if I am a legit legacy and I haven't gotten my legacy sister to send the chapter an introduction for me, or my legacy sister won't... there may be a very good reason for that!

I'm not denying the importance of reporting on legacies, and as an alumna who has worked behind the scenes for many chapters' recruitment efforts, I know why its important. But if a woman is coming through as a legacy, her legacy sister (mom, grandmother, sister) needs to confirm this-- not a check box on a recruitment application.