It is interesting that you pose this question, becuase I was thinking about it the other day myself. We have a white member in our alumni chapter, and I have to say that I really don't have a problem with him being there. He is active, pays his dues, and contributes.

As long as these white members understand that our organizations are founded on principles that uplift the black kommunity. I welcome any and all help, becuase there is so much need in our kommunities, especially here in DC. If we as a kommunity were to take care of our own, maybe outside help would not be needed, but I digress.

I know that there are those who would disgree, and I know of some brothers who feel differently, but that is simply my take on it.

Also, Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc. was the First BGLO to have a provision in it's constitution that precluded members from barring perspectives based on race.

My founders saw the evils that were visited upon them by whites, and instead of addopting the same flawed way of doing things, they charted their own course, and rose above the discrimination and hatred that was so prevelant in those days (and still happens today).

God I love those men

MN

If you will go to "search" and enter the word "racism" you will find several topics about this. Many of them have been closed because people cannot seem to speak respectfully of each other when this topic is at hand.

I don't think there is any excuse for reverse discrimination. I should not have to pay for something my ancestors did. It's almost like what's happening with our chapter now. In the past, actives alienated the alumni, and now they refuse to have any contact with the chapter, even though we are completely different people. I know it isn't based on race, but it is a similar situation. The current actives are paying for the actions of a few alumni.


------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

Okay,

ManndingoNUPE

In your post you make the statement, "As long as these white members understand that our organizations..."

This statement bothers me for one reason:

1. This statement uses the word, OUR in reference to white members of your org and their relationship to the org. This seems to imply that although a white man might be your brother he isn't part of YOUR org. Because if he is your Frat then it would be his org. too. Hence the words you chose to express your point tell a different story of your feelings than what you say you believe/feel.


Much Respect and Love,

Kymberleigh
Delta Delta Delta

Corbin, reverse-discrimination!! That would mean there is no discrimination Discrimination is exactly that no matter what the group. Discrimination needs to be reversed in all facets.


Am I my brother's keeper? Yes, I am.

The truth of the matter is these organizations are a part of the black community so they are uniquely ours. This is not to say that members who are lighter are not any more or less of a brother, but the organizations belong to the black community. Although, to be honest I do not know why a white person would want to join a BGLO. Where I am from we don't have any so maybe a white female and male who are a part of a BGLO could enlighten us.

Non-Black Members in Historically Black Greek Ltr Organizations
 

I was wondering how others felt about having non-Black members in their BGLO. Personally, I do not have a problem with it. However, I do have friends who feel quite strongly against it. They feel that since African-Americans were not allowed membership into the white Greek organizations back in the day, why should we allow them into ours now? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif How do you guys feel about this?

Truth,

Well I make no argument that BGLO's are part of the black community, my issue with ManndingoNUPE's comment was that he seemed (and yes I say seemed) to insinuate that even if he had a white frat they wouldn't be a part of "OUR" org. That's what I took from his statements. It is quite possible that he merely misworded what he intended to say.

Also, you seem to have your own opinion on the matter which is nothing short of...well to put it in polite terms opposite of mine.

Much Love,

Kymberleigh
Delta Delta Delta

Kymberleigh,

It was not my intent that a white man is not part of my org. So I guess that may have simply been your interpretation of what I was trying to convey.

Any member, white, black, green, purple, who has been intiated into Kappa Alpha Psi is my frat brother and part of the frat. I thought that that would go without saying, but let me just clear that up for you.

But we would be fooling ourselves if we didn't emphasise the fact that these orgs where created, and are for the uplift of the black kommunity. That is simply a statement of fact, and if you are outside of that kommunity (which whites are), yet you still want to help with the work that the org does, then kool. I got luv for you.

MN

MN:

I understood you perfectly well THE PHIRST time! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

I'm not sure I understand your last post. If you're saying we need to reverse discrimination, as in end it, then yes we do. If you're saying black people have the right to hate ALL white people, then FALSE. That just perpetuates problems.



------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

To the Group ...

Ebony Magazine will soon be doing a story on this very topic!

I was recently contacted by a writer at the magazine (who happens to be a Delta) and she was looking for White members of BGLO's to interview.

I'm sure it will be interesting and enlightening reading! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
IotaNet
Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc.
3AH80

Kappa Kappa Psi Honorary Band Fraternity
Zeta Nu Chapter, Spring, 1979

Corbin,

What The Researcher is saying is there's really no such thing as "reverse-discrimination". Wherther there's an issue because I'm black and you're white or vice-versa, it's still discrimination. We, as a society, are so used to explaining things from a "white male" prospective, that we come up with terms that really make no sense. Think about it, reverse means opposite. The opposite of discrimination is equality. So when you say "I don't think there is any excuse for reverse discrimination," what do you really mean? Do you mean there's no excuse to treat everyone equally or there's no excuse to treat anyone differently because of a personal aspect, be it race, ethnicity or sexual orientation?

I'm not trying to make you look stupid, and I'm DEFINETLY NOT trying to start one of greek chat infamous "race relations wars," just trying to help you understand what The Researcher was saying.

In Greekdom,

------------------
Kelli
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
12-Delta Nu-94
MAL, Southern Region
Savannah State University c/o 1997

just like you said, "...back in the day," It's a new day, now and white's accept blacks and others into their orgs., and blacks should accept also, if, and only if that person shows the quality that that part. sorority/fraternity looks for in their members.

Corbin Dallas,

I don't think that you are reading the words that I am typing, as opposed to seeing into it what you want it to be.

I believe that I clarrified my position. If you don't get it, then no matter what I write, you still won't get it.

Take Care

MN

VERY well said, Belle! I feel the same way but have not yet been able to state it so eloquently!

MN, my last message wasn't to you, unless you are also "The Researcher". I agree that there should be NO discrimination.

Kelli, I'm sure you meant no harm, but I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. Why would I get on here, and say I think there should be no equality?

I agree that there should be equality at all aspects. By reverse-discrimination, I'm using the same definition I've heard over and over:

"Discrimination against members of a dominant group, especially such discrimination resulting from policies established to correct discrimination against members of minority groups."

This happens to be the dictionary definition I found at http://www.onelook.com/

I don't think it is tollerable because it isn't my fault I was born a male WASP. This topic is about "reverse-discrimination" or if you like discrimination against whites. As with ANY discrimination, it isn't acceptable, period!

Anyway, there's no hate here, just clarifying my side of the argument.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

Corbin,

My apologies, I am getting old, and my eyes deceive me sometimes.

MN

Corbin, I apologize if it seemed like I was putting words into your mouth. I just wanted some clarity, which I received, thank you http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif.

While I firmly believe ANY discrimination is wrong, I don't agree with the term "reverse-discrimination" just like someone (I don't remember who) does not agree with the term "WGLO." If we, as a society, truly want to have equality across the board, we shouldn't create cute terms like "reverse-discrimination." I think the terms indicates that discrimination was meant, if you will, for non-WASPs and we all know that isn't true. People are wronged all across the board. Discrimination is not "different" just because a caucasian male is the victim, so why should it get a different term? (rethorical question) I think it's interesting to note though, the term "reverse discrimination" first appeared in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary in 1969 whereas "discrimination" has been in the dictionary since 1648. (rethorical statement)

No hate projected, No hate perceived. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Getting back to the original question, I can honestly say I don't have a PROBLEM with non-Black women seeking Delta nor do I have a PROBLEM with the non-Black women who are Deltas. It would be pointless for me to have an issue with the latter, because there's nothing I can do to take their letters away. If I did, the only "protesting" I can do is denounce and I find that hypocritical. If you look at it from the standpoint of a chapter of women thought she could benefit the organization just like a chapter of women though you would the organization, there really is no issue.

[This message has been edited by 12dn94dst (edited October 29, 2000).]

Thanks Dewgirl, I try http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif But seriously, the NPHC represents HISTORICALLY BLACK s/f's, not BLACK ONLY s/f's.

I'm interested to know: what "reverse discrimination" are black people perpetrating on whites? What schools are whites kept out of, jobs are whites denied, neighborhoods are whites barred from, because of black people in decision-making positions denying them the opportunities to pursue those opportunities? And please don't cite the tired "I was denied admission/a job at XYX University/Corporation because some inferior ***** got my job" line.

From where I sit, the few institutions blacks do control have been/are open to people of all backgrounds. It's just that "people of all backgrounds," especially whites, have been loathe to align themselves with black institutions, by and large.



[This message has been edited by Discogoddess (edited November 01, 2000).]

African Americans are as capable of being racists and bigots as anyone else. White people aren't the only people on the planet that prejudge and exclude on the basis of skin color.

I think that Disco is not refering to being prejudice and having racist opinions against whites but that type of discrimiation that blocks people from advancing in the world because of their race.

Honestly though, I wonder how many people on this board are really as color blind as they sound or are just trying to be PC (people of all backgrounds). Not to cause problems but if everyone was as anti-all discrimiation as everyone here this would truly be a great nation.

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited November 01, 2000).]

I don't know, I think a prime example of this would be the topic of this thread. An example where white people are not allowed because of skin color is in "BGLO's". I have read many times on this board of people saying something along the lines of, "I would never vote to let a white girl/guy in my frat/sor!" That, to me sounds exactly like what you are saying doesn't exist. And, even though it may be the tired "I was denied admission/a job at XYX University/Corporation because some inferior ***** got my job" line, in many cases it is true. If an employer has two candidates for a job, one white, one not (whatever color, doesn't make a difference) and the white person IS the more qualified candidate, but the employer has quotas or whatever, the non-white will get the job, and that isn't fair to the more qualified person. I'm not saying that whites are always more qualified. I know some very worthless white people that don't deserve the jobs they have, even if it is working fast food, or if it's as a corporate VP somewhere. I know I'm not colorblind, but I try, and I like to think I don't do too bad, considering the town I grew up in had no more than half a dozen non-whites, until the mexican and chinese restaurants moved into town. Enough of my ramblings. In closing, I hope you get my point. I know there are more injustices against non-whites, but that doesn't mean there are no injustices toward whites.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

DG asked "What reverse discrimination are Blacks perpetrating on Whites?"

Refusal to offer membership to a white person solely on the basis of skin color would be an example of that. I understand that by nature, all GLOs discriminate. If someone doesn't fit the ideals of the organization, they should not become a member. But there is a difference between discriminating against someone because they are unqualified or don't have what it takes to join, and discriminating against someone because their skin is not the right color. I do realize that this issue is trivial compared to the other issues that DG brought up, but it is my answer to that question. I am well aware that we don't have the ability to stop the white race from advancing socially or economically,the way they are able to do to us, but that doesn't have anything to do with the question that brownin originally asked.

Also, I don't believe in double standards.
Not very long ago someone started a thread about a girl who reported her sorors and left the college she was attending because her sorority refused to extend membership to a Black woman. Some people got all bent out of shape over this, but when the situation is reversed, suddenly there is no problem.

I don't get it. When a predominantly white organization denies membership to a Black person, that's bad. When a BGLO denies membership to a white person, that's okay.

I understand that my opinion is unpopular with some of the other African American members of greekchat, but it is still my opinion. And my post is most definitely not an attempt to be politically correct.



[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 01, 2000).]

I agree with the researcher. You can not decide your nationality. It is what you do after you get here! If they seek membership, meet the requirements and contribute to the organization, its cool with me. Can't we all just get a long? I'm being silly, but I'm just keeping it real.

Again, I say there ARE white people that aren't allowed in some chapters of "BGLO's" Even though it is not their national policy, it happens. This happens the same way with white people keeping other ethnicities out of their clubs, restaurants, golf courses, and what have you. Just because technically these "BGLO's" allow white people, doesn't mean they always let them in, even if they completely meet all of the chapters criteria. I will take your point on the job thing, since you did say minorities, keeping white people down. However, I was not assuming the white person is always more qualified. You can't tell me though, that it has never happened. Even if the person doesn't know for a fact that was the case, sometimes experience, education, and whatever else tell who is more qualified. It could be that the other person had a better interview though. Who knows. All I was saying is that because of affirmative action, the better candidate does not always get the job, whether they're brown, pink, purple, gray, polkadot, green, or chartreuse.

Anyway, I have seen your point, and I hope you can see mine. Even though it doesn't happen often, there are cases of minorities discriminating against whites. Thanks for reading this far http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

Well I was in class & our guest speaker an AKA was very intelligent and gave us some good future college tips, I began to ask about her sorority (i don't know anything about it)and she came off saying we don't have white girls in our sorority like XYZ sororites is this true?

Are we really trying to be respectful to each other by continuing to use the terms "whites" and "blacks" - I don't think any of us on here have truly white or black skin.

Also, it seems to me that this topic keeps popping up all over the board (in other forums as well) and it appears as though some people have no problem in labeling Caucasians (such as "don't you hate it when whites...."), but I don't recall seeing a post where someone said "don't you hate it when blacks..." .

So we've discussed this exact issue before (exactly - just search under "Racism" if you want to see all the circles) and they were all eventually closed because the discussion got out of hand. The majority of us (i.e., regular posters on this board) have decided in the past that this topic is not conducive to amicable discussion. So why are we going through it again? Just MHO - especially since I'll be away from my computer for 4 days and I'm sure I'll come back to a slam fest.

First Hello to everyone, I have been gone awhile. I personally have a problem with whites wanting to become members of black organizations. I don't think they can get the full understanding of what our organizations stand for or what many of our founders and early members had to experience in their struggle for equality.

If white candidates were being denied membership in black greek orgs., then there wouldn't be any white members of these orgs. And since there ARE white, Latino/a, Asian and other ethnicities represented in most if not all BGLOs, I don't see what the problem is. Someone saying on this board that they wouldn't vote on someone because they are white obviously hasn't affected this reality. SO WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IT AGAIN?

And again, Corbin, I ask: what "reverse discrimination" are blacks in positions of power perpetuating on whites? The "quota" situation you cited usually relies on some hiring manager, who, more often than not, isn't black. I'd love to know how these supposedly more qualified whites find out that they were A.) more qualified in the first place; B.) denied a job because it went to the less qualified candidate. Unless the hiring manager is telling them this, I think it's a pretty prejudiced opinion to assume that the black/Latino/a/ person was less qualified.

Okay Two Things,

AKA2D 91'

I'm glad you got MN comment the first time! I merely wanted some clarification. I was asking for some explaination. MN didn't feel compelled to respond rudely, so why did you?


Reds695,

Okay, so your statement is both narrow-minded and ignorant. I believe that the ideals behind NPHC orgs. wouldn't agree with what you have to say. The real written principles of the orgs. aren't the ignorance which comes from your opinion.


Much Love,

Kymberleigh
Delta Delta Delta

[This message has been edited by Kymberleigh (edited November 03, 2000).]

Kymberleigh,
If you feel as though my opinion is ignorant, than so be it. I also beleive I'm entitled to my opinion and it appears that you don't seem to think that I am, which leads me to beleive that you are the narrow-minded one.
You will never be able to understand the struggles that my founders and early members faced, because you can not relate. I stand by my feelings. You nor the founders or early members of your organization will ever know how it feels not be admitted into a place because of thier skin color. Of not being able to reside in on campus housing because of their skin color. For instance my founders first public act was to march in the Women's Suffrage March of 1913. They were at first denied the right to march because of their skin color and when they were allowed to march they had to march at the end of the line. So when you want to call someone's opinion narrow-minded, know that sometimes people feel the way they do because of history and experience.

Once again adding fuel to the fire but I think that part of the reason you hear blacks saying don't you hate it when whites..., but we don't "like" it when white s say don't you hate it when blacks...." Is because we without even realizing it assume that we are aware of "what it means to be white. Living in America most of everything we are exposed to is from the general "white" perspective. Also most white people will never fully understand what it means to be discriminated agains for something that you can not control, like skin color. Whereas, we (blacks) often feel that black America is still treated like a subculture so wehn white people speak of the black experience we feel that they don't know enough about it so how can they speak on it.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT THAT IS ALWAYS RIGHT BUT THAT IS SOME OF THE REASON THAT THAT OPINION IS AROUND.

Personally I would rather be with people that want to be with me. Im most cases that is African-American. So, if a white person is all for helping the world but the black community specifically then I say welcome to the sisterhood. If they are not interested in helping our community them I would question their desire to be in a HBGLO because it is about sisterhood but it is also about work, the work of helping the black community.

Teva7,

no, my soror was incorrect. Eleanor Roosevelt was an honorary member. even now, there are several white and non-white members of Alpha Kappa Alpha working hard to uplift our Sisterhood.

more than several, i should say!

To the Group:

In an earlier post, I mentioned that Ebony Magazine would be doing a story on "White Members of Black Greek Lettered Organizations." Well, as I understand it the issue containing that article is now on the newsstands.

I've not seen it but I am interested in commentary from anyone who has. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
IotaNet
Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc.
3AH80

Kappa Kappa Psi Honorary Band Fraternity
Zeta Nu Chapter, Spring, 1979

Morning!

I read the article in Ebony last night. It was a nice article. It didn't go into a lot of depth as far as people's feeling one way or the other, but it did mention the range of feelings on the African American member's side from "so long as he/she is working, I don't care about skin color" to "I staunchly oppose white members in the NPHC." Also, the Caucasian members interviewed did answer the "why an NPHC organization" question (of course, else there wouldn't be a point to the article). From what I gathered, the NPHC organizations represent strong commitment to community service and a feeling of true sister/brotherhood that could not be gained from GLOs in the opinion of the members interviewed. I liked what Lucas Klein (Alpha Phi Alpha) said regarding his observations of a GLO on his campus "There was no reason to affiliate with people with whom I didn't have much in common other than the color of my skin. We had no common goals or beliefs." Isn't that really what joining a fraternity or sorority is about?

All in all, I'm not suprised with the findings in the article. The Caucasian members interviewed showed a sincere commitment to what we do and the ideals of the organization, which is nothing more than we seek of any other applicant. Like I said, it's not an indept study, but it does provide some insight.

Kelli

I'm not versed on BGLO's, so I really can't say much about them. From what I do understand, correct me if I'm wrong, they exist to uplift the black community. So, with the purpose stated, what is wrong with a white person wanting to take part in this endevor? No, I can't relate to what it feels like to be denied service becuase of my skin color, but I am a part of a generation that wants to help change that mentality. Just because I'm white, and I haven't had the same experiences, doesn't mean that I don't want to strive for a better world for ALL people. Just because I don't know what it's like to be discriminated against doesn't mean that I don't want to take part in uplifting a community that, despite what you think, I am a member of too. We ALL are members of this community--the US, the World. We are in it together, so why shouldn't I be allowed to help because my situation is different. It's like saying that we can't feed the hungry in Africa because we don't know what it's like to starve. Why would anyone want to deny the joy of helping others to someone? Why anyone want to deny the joy of having someone help to anyone? The more willing members, the more we can accomplish. That goes for ANY organization that uplifts this world.

...km433,

Your points are rational but if you think about it, race relations in America are such that they don't give rise to trusting in one another. Whether people admit it or not we all have some bias toward others. Race is not as much about rationale as it is emotion. That is also true for greek organizations. Especially BGLO's, if you see how deep rooted they are in our community, they are like parents or children. You may appreciate someone else wanting to help your child but you perceive them as an outsider, you don't think that they know what is best for your child.

You have to realize we are not taking about some fairytale land this is America and no amount of "heal the world" will change feelings if people don't want their feelings changed. If may not be right but that is just how many people feel.