How strict is your pledge ed programs...?
 

I was talking to a brother from another school and they require no smoking, no drinking, and no TELEVISION while a pledge is pledging. Is this comon, and do other places have strict and weird pledge policies? I mean, it seems a little out there

As long as the New Member follows the structure of the New Member Program set forth by our IHQ, then the chapter has no right to dictate whether or not she can smoke or drink during the New Member period. What she does in her personal time is her business.

I was a smoker (still am) during my pledge period (as it was called then), and it was never a problem because I never smoked at official events. All official events are non-smoking anyway.

Re: How strict is your pledge ed programs...?
 

I would think that most national organizations' policies regarding their pledge/new member programs would not allow chapters to have such requirements. I think that most orgs would view such restrictions as hazing, or very close to. This seems to get into some of the 'behavior modification' that used to go on in some pledge programs (along with calestenics, etc), that is no longer allowed.

However, that doesn't mean that particular chapters are doing this.

I agree OTW. Whatever a New Member does on her personal time is up to her, we have no right to tell them not to do anything. We ahve to follow the New Member program set by our Nationals.

Pledge Requirements
 

I had a chapter president tell me once that their pledges were required to wear a collar shirt tucked in at all fraternity-related functions. I asked him what happens once they're initiated and his response was, "collar shirt tucked in at all fraternity-related functions."

Interesting way of doing things. This chapter has a country club atmosphere/setting and I can see how this would be a requirement.

I think a lot of your "no smoking/drinking/sex/tv/etc" rules are created at the chapter level.

Re: Pledge Requirements
 

I know that, I was just curious how common it is for chapters of any fraternity nation wide

Most of the fraternity chapters at Nebraska usually have some rules governing when pledges can drink. One chapter has a ban on TV, not even allowing them to be brought into pledge rooms. Pledges are allowed to watch tv during special exceptions to the rule (football games and major news events mainly). Of course this ends up being a de facto ban on video games as well.

My chapter does not allow pledges to drink from noon Sunday to 5pm on Thursday when in Lincoln. Obviously it is a very carefully crafted rule that allows a great time but you get your work done too. Interestingly, most people usually follow this same habit of drinking through their four years for the most part, or at least solidly until they turn 21.

Re: How strict is your pledge ed programs...?
 

That chapter is hazing. Period. So is any other chapter that says you can't do x, y, or z on your free time.

Re: Re: How strict is your pledge ed programs...?
 

That is my/my chapter's thinking as well. Every other sorority (and I'm pretty sure all the fraternities) on campus forbids their NM from drinking. Now, we all know that unless you are 21 you can't drink (in the US)- let me just put that out there. But who am I, as an active, to tell a NM they can't drink just because she is a pledge. We are lead to believe that hazing is anything that seperates a NM from an active. Forbiding drinking to NM seperates that woman from a sister, therefore it is hazing. It is one thing to say "No drinking during new member events" but quite another to say "You can't drink at all until you are initiated."

Re: Re: How strict is your pledge ed programs...?
 

Yes. Anyway, why would someone put up with that sort of crap?

At my school I believe it's mandated by the school that you have a dry pledge period at least for some part. It's up to the sorority to decide how long the dry period is for. It varies from a week to the entire time I think.

It's one thing to say that certain times should be alcohol free (like pre initiation week or rush week or what have you) but that's for the whole brotherhood or sisterhood, not just the pledges.

DRY PLEDGE PERIODS ARE HAZING. My sorority figured this out in like 1972!!! I can't believe there are still people who put up with it. I also can't believe there is a school rule for it - that's so far beyond what an admin can do it's ridiculous.

Yes, at some campuses the whole pledge class is underage so it's a moot point - but at many other campuses they are not, and Canada is a whole other issue. I would bet the majority of Canadian pledges are legal drinking age.

Imagine if someone said "you can't eat meat while you are pledging" or "you can't take aspirin while you are pledging." While you are at designated pledge activities - yes, the GLO can tell you what to do. But the minute you walk out of the activity you are on your own time and you can drink and smoke while watching a Nazi porn movie if you want to.

It's not really a moot point because we all know how much underage drinking goes on.

When I pledged we were told we were required by sorority bylaws that we had to follow state, local and college laws/policies or we could be depledged. I doubt that this was made up and would bet that other orgs have the same type of clause. You can be released for illegal activity, underage drinking is illegal.

I have to say that I think in the (very) long list of things that are considered hazing, this is a minor item. I don't see anything wrong with telling pledges that they can't drink from Noon sunday till 5pm thurs. What else are they gonna do? Study, bond w/actives while sober? I know people take things to far, but asking people to refrain from excess can help create healthy habits in my opinion. I do wonder how many of the chapters that don't allow drinking for a period of the pledge program have had drinking problems.

You missed my point.

Yes, we have to follow "state, local & college laws" - that has been in our bylaws as long as I can remember. The reason it was written that way was due to different drinking ages in diffferent states & countries. Obviously if you are under 21 in the USA you shouldn't be drinking, whether you're a sister or a pledge. That's what I meant by saying the point was moot - if you're at Bama where the whole pledge class is 18 year old freshmen it's kind of like telling a man with no legs not to run too fast.

The thing is, if you are 21, and have a drink on your way home from whatever pledge activity you were at, you aren't breaking any of those laws. It's wrong to tell you you're not allowed to do something that is perfectly legal for you, ON YOUR OWN TIME.

This is anything BUT a minor item, as it says "hey, once you sign your bid, your free time is no longer your own." That's a very slippery slope. It leads to things like that no television garbage in the original post.

Actually, if it's a private school, the school can make any rules they want.

For the entire group, not for a subgroup of it. That is nothing more than school-mandated hazing. I doubt that the school would be able to say that freshman English majors have a curfew of 9 PM and no other freshmen or English majors do.

If they want the "pledge time" to be dry this must apply to the active members as well, and should be the same for each Greek group.

Being forced to refrain from drinking while pledging doesn't teach you anything about the history or traditions of the group, help you to get to know your future brothers or sisters, or prepare you for leadership.

I am curious to know why a chapter that chooses to have an 'alcohol free' pledge period, is hazing? I mean, if the chapter says "our chapter has an alcohol free pledge period, take it or leave it" and someone joins and is booted for alcohol, it's kind of their own fault.

Everyone know's hazing is wrong, but we've gotten waaay to PC about it.

I'm guessing most schools and groups have a rule that says pledge activities are not supposed to be more than x hours a week, or go on past so and so time, etc.

If you tell a pledge they cannot drink, smoke, fart whatever OUTSIDE OF OFFICIAL SORORITY/FRATERNITY FUNCTIONS you are breaking that rule.

Ummm following that logic, you could say, "Our chapter requires you to eat a large jar of mayonnaise while singing the National Anthem while naked in the middle of the Quad with crabs hanging from your nipples." If the student still joins despite this warning, would you say it's not hazing?

Woah that was quite the visual there.

I see what you are saying about it being a slippery slope and I agree that some will always push the line.

However, what if the ENITRE chapter did it? Why not? (I know that kind of changes the scenario) You are electing to be a member and (presumeably) no one is forcing you to join. If it is a healthy exercise, I personally don't see the problem. Part of where I am coming from is that I'm frustrated with the way greek insurance treats alocohol education. I would have had a hard time not drinking in college, but I think an chapter that says "hey we want you to do well in your classes and get to know these new women so we are asking that for four and half days you don't drink." I guess i see that as a good way to help break the image of greeks with drinks in their hands.

YaY! I cant go out with several of my sisters (with a DD) and have a drink because us hanging out is considered a function.

How hard is it for people to be smart and use common sense? The whole "what defines a function" garbage defies the whole point of being sisters and being friends and hanging out.

If Me hanging out with ONE other sister is considered a function, then the organization better be paying my expenses for that function.

Jocelyn...I mean, I understand in your case that it is a christian organization, but isnt a rule like that kind of extreme?

If the entire chapter did it, it's fine. It's like what Jocelyn described that Kappa Phi does, or like staying sober during rush week.

If the entire chapter does it, then you are not singling out one specific group (ie NM). As we were taught, anything you do to seperate one group from another is hazing. If the entire chapter cannot drink, then everyone is equal and there is no hazing. The minute one group is provided with different rules, hazing occurs.

While I do agree that a chapter saying "We want you to do well...etc etc....don't drink" would be a great thing to say, it has to be told to the entire chapter. Not just the new members.

amanda6035, I PM'd you.

pledging? what's that?

:confused:

Actually, yes, I'd say that is NOT hazing. It is a known stipulation that they knew about well in advance. What's the problem with that?

Let's hear it, show me how PC you are. Tell me, does your chapter 'require' your pledges to know lore about your chapter? Does it require them to dress a certain way for your rituals? Does it require them to have x amount of study hours? Does it require them to spend x amount of time at your house?

So if you know about it in advance, it's not hazing? That's the first time I've heard that.

well, I dont think he meant it like that. Just that you do not hide from them that you make them learn lore or particpate actively...

Here is my opinion on the alcohol and pledging. I dont think it is wrong to restrict it during the process. You are not demeaning them or harassing them. You are not asking them to have sex with sheep or doing ANYTHING that makes them look foolish. I agree with my Beta brother that it is on the same level of asking to know the lore. Its asking them to keep a clear mind about what they are learning and getting into. Its letting them know that the fraternity is not a group that just gets together to get shitfaced with one another. It also respectful to the pledges who dont drink, who want to be apart of the fraternity, and might feel pressured if his pledge class gets together to booze. It shouldnt be any sort of a challenge for a man to go 8 weeks without alcohol. It takes a better man to do that and stick with it, and you are doing it without degrading them in any way

How can an alcohol-free pledge period be hazing? Please explain...

Now that I have been thinking about this, and comparing some of you to that chain of people in PCU singing "this penis party's got to go, hey-hey, ho-ho" and complaining about the 'meat tossers', I have a few more questions for you.

*Is requiring a pledge to read your lore, and maybe even test on it, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to be in shirt/tie or an all white dress/shoes for an event, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to spend XXX hours at your house each week, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to spend XXX hours at the library each week, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to have XXX hours of philanthropy during their pledge period, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to meet or exceed X.XX GPA in order to be initated, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to wear a pledge-pin, hazing?

Every one of your orgs. has one or more of those requirements, or something similar. Each of those requirements were openly discussed as requirements to your pledge. They knew these requirements BEFORE they pledged your house.

How can any of preach 'hazing', when all of your orgs. have pre-set rules, such as above? Then, if you DO believe those are hazing, what are you doing (to your own org.) to stop this?

If all of our orgs. had open-door invitations to anyone and everyone, with NO requirements, then we'd all be Alpha Beta Gamma's, because we'd all be in the same group.

I'm sure there is a tree to hug somewhere, or a war to protest or some safe-haven land in Alaska that needs complaining about - why stop with hazing?

In my organization, none of the pledges are required to do anything the initiated members aren't doing as well.

-Ritual dress? All members.
-Study hours? All members.
-Philanthropy hours? All members.
-Required GPA? All members.
-Meeting attendance? All members.

The Phis do learn information about our organization at their weekly meeting, but as of now, we do not test them on this material.

What the majority of posters in this thread are intimating is that if EVERYONE is not allowed to drink during the pledge period, that's one thing. But dictating what pledges may or may not do outside of official fraternity functions and not setting forth those same stipulations for the general membership IS hazing.

how is it hazing if it is not endangering the physical health of an individual, causing mental distress, or cause the pledge to experience humiliation

Our organizations are supposed to enrich our lives, not limit them or control them in any way. How is it fair or right for underage brothers to be boozing it up on Saturday night while their of-age pledges don't drink? Unless I'm violating our code of standards, Phi Mu is not the boss of me in any way. What I do in my free time is my business, whether I'm a pledge or not.

they are not your boss, but, your always a phi mu... whether your with or with out your chapter... whether your in your 'free time' or not... i dont know your ritual, but you committed yourself to live by the standards of your organization in your chapter meeting or out on your own

If an alcohol-free pledge period is in your national bylaws, then knock yourself out. But drinking during pledging should NOT be a violation of any sort of standard, and it doesn't make me any less of a Phi Mu to say that I am a free person first.

PS. "you're".

Just want to clarify something - this is not a Beta / Phi Mu thing. This is a general Fraternity/Sorority discussion. That being said, what IF the national by-laws require a dry pledge-period? Wouldn't that be hazing too? I mean, thats no different than a chapter imposing those rules on themselves, is it?

If a pledge said that she couldn't find her pledge pin (thinking she might have dropped it) and then forcing her "pledge sisters" to go outside (mind u it happened in November), and crawl around in the grass in pitch black WITH NO FLASHLIGHTS while its pouring rain, while the sorority sisters sit inside their apartment watching and yelling at the pledges cause that can't find it, would you consider that hazing?

If you have to wear a pledge pin on ur bra strap, and everytime a sister wants to see if you are wearing ur pledge pin, you have to show your bra---in front of any students who pass by....would you consider that hazing?

These situations might not be endangering the physical health of an individual or causing mental distress....maybe even not humiliation. But I DO think it would be considered hazing.

That is the whole thing about the "dry period" being hazing. If you were a pledge going through your process...and the fraternity (or sorority) says "your gonna have a dry period" not to teach you anything about ur group, but just "because"...wouldn't u question it? Especially if the frat brothers/soror sisters said "when we go to the clubs, we better not see you there...or else MAJOR CONSEQUENCES"...then what is right about that?

I guess it is all about someone's interpretation of the word hazing..and what you personally feel is hazing or not.

I consider it to be very, very different. Chapters should not be making those sorts of rules and limitations for themselves- in the NPC world at least, organizations are pushing for uniform new member periods where one chapter does not differ greatly from another.

Although I still maintain that negatively differentiating between pledges and initiated members IS included in the generally accepted definition of hazing by national organizations, I do trust any national organization to create their bylaws and pledge programs in a way that covers liability. No chapter is ever accused of hazing for following their national policies... it's when groups of people get their own ideas about what should be happening that we start to have problems.