Divorce or premarital Sex?
 

This thread got me thinking.

I am a christian.
However, I do perform a sin- premarital sex.

Now, it got me thinking- about marriage vs. premarital sex vs. divorce. Not necessarily which is better but more like what is your take on this.
Here are my thoughts:
Premarital sex is a sin, but I don't think it is as big a sin as standing on an altar before God and promising someone to unite our souls and spend eternity loving each other then five years later deciding we "just aren't right" or whatever reason people have for getting divorced.

I'd rather be 40 and never married and even have a child out of wedlock rather than get married and end up divorced.

But I get extremely irratated by the Christians that say I am going to hell or I need to stop and repent for this sin when they are divorced twice or whatever and have two sets of kids by two different fathers.
EXCUSE ME? I am going to hell but you can stand before God HOW MANY TIMES saying you will love this person forever before you are going to hell and need to repent?

But I am one of the few people I know that really doesn't believe in divorce. I know people have GOOD reasons for getting divorced, but you need to consider that before going so far as walking in a church before God, your family and your friends and entering into a sacred vow.
Now breaking THAT to me is a sin.

I'm not super religious but I was always taught that a sin is a sin. All of them are bad and unless it's one of the deadly sins, they're pretty much all equal. One is not worse than another.

I was also taught that it's not my place to judge others for their actions that may be sins. (I think that's God's job...right?) So I don't think people should judge you for your choice to have sex and you shouldn't judge others if divorce is right for them. I think both of these subjects are highly personal decisions. Further, I don't remember reading anything in the bible that allows and encourages Christians to judge others. I think that judging people is probably actually contrary to what the bible says. Just my two cents. :)

ilovemyglo, I completely agree with everything you said.

I'd rather someone sleep with 100 people before they were married than get married and break that vow - and do it again and again.

That was more of my point. Not trying to sound judgemental, more aggravated-
It's like, me having premarital sex makes me a whore, but you getting married three times before you sleep with them makes it okay?

i wasn't trying to say you in particular are judgmental! I'm sorry if you thought that. I mean that if you want to have sex then no one should judge you for that. I just don't think it's anyone's place to tell you you're going to hell for anything. But maybe that's why I'm not super religious...;)

How and where is premarital sex defined as a sin? Is it categorized as lust, one of the seven deadly sins? Just curious.

My view is that sex outside marriage is ok as long as it's between consenting adults, neither of whom is in a committed relationship with someone else... But I'm not a Christian, so I'll shut up now. :)

What you're really angry with is hypocrisy and, I agree that hypocrisy is not right. I try to live by the addage "Judge not, lest ye be judged". I have always been taught and believed that God is a forgiving, merciful, loving God who understands that we are weak and that we make mistakes.

Ok, so I'm feeling defensive too because I'm divorced twice and I struggled with that and with God and prayed a lot before ending up divorced. And, came to the same conclusion... God understands that we are human and make mistakes. I don't think God expects us to remain in situations that are unhealthy for us. He doesn't expect an abused woman to wait until death (by the hand of her husband), etc. Not only that but, the reality here is, You have no control over whether your spouse divorces you. None, zip, zero, nada. Your spouse can divorce you if they want to. You don't have to agree to it. You can fight about property and stuff, but if they want a divorce, they will get a divorce. You have no control over that.

But, your question reminded me of a talk that my ex-husband had with his Pastor about marriage and divorce:

Ex: What happens if I meet someone that I want to marry?

Pastor: You will be living in sin if you marry someone else because you married already and only one marriage is recognized by God.

Ex: But, it was my ex-wife's second marriage when she married me, does that mean our marriage wasn't recognized by God because it would have been her FIRST marriage that was recognized.

Pastor: No.

Ex: Why not?

Paster: uhhhh, errr.. it's just not that way.

Truth is, none of us know for sure what God is thinking about our actions for sure at any given time. Sure he says "Thou Shalt Not Steal", but if you had no food for your baby and stole some to ensure that the baby wouldn't starve, would he really see that as wrong? We don't know. There are no absolutes. Life is a big huge grey area and we can only do the best we can at the time, with the abilities we have at the time. I think God knows that.

Dee

Re: Divorce or premarital Sex?
 

Premarital sex isn't a sin. Your only sin is getting a breast reduction.

We don't mean stuff like that darlin.

We mean people who put as much thought into getting married as I do into what underwear I wore this morning, go into it thinking "oh well, we can always get divorced if this sucks" and think they are better than people who aren't married yet are having sex. None of which you did.

So big hug. :)

for all of you who say that premarital sex is not a sin, well IT IS. It can be considered lust, but iin the bible, its mainly talked about as sexual immorality and that is a sin.

But onto my thoughts on this. I have to agree with OtterXO. I have learned not to judge others. I think though that having a divorce and having premarital sex are two different things. One can be avoided while the other MAY NOT be avoided.

I think this is a good way to look at it. Yes, you stand before God saying that you will love this person forever....and at THAT TIME you really mean it. I think God does understand if you get divorced, UNLESS its for an adulterous type reason (like you want to be with some other lady/guy). Like AGDee said, if your spouse wants a divorce, you really have no control over it. Sometimes once you get married you then realize that the relationship is unhealthy.


But Premarital sex can be avoided--by just not doing it. Its as simple as that. I do believe that sex is something that you should be saved for the guy/girl who you truly believe is "the one." But i'm not here to say you SHOULD do this or you SHOULDN'T do that..ya know? Its eventually your decision.

Just because you have premarital sex (over and over..lol) or you have a divorce, doesn't condemn you to hell. God is forgiving, all you have to do is ask for forgiveness.

Ugh...hopefully i didnt go on too many tangents, so hopefully i made sense!

AGDee-
I am not trying to make you or other divorcees defensive or offend you, but I am sure this will.

Someone said premarital sex can be avoided, and it can, but so can divorce, or at least you can do all you can to avoid it.
Not rushing into marriage, getting premarital counseling and pretty much spending more than a year or so with one person is one way to start ( and I am by NO means saying you or anyone else DIDN'T do any of this). And yes, if one person wants to get divorced the other has no control, however, again, i think if you REALLY know the person before you marry you shouldn't have to worry about them backing out 2-3 years down the road. By then you will have discussed the scenarios and have the trust in place to discuss ANYTHING no matter how difficult.

But there is a vow taken before GOD and that is not to be taken lightly... I believe that is usually said in the service.
Now, I am also strange in that personally I think a marriage done in a church and a marriage done at the JOP or wherever else aren't the same. Legally, yes, but you didn't take the vows before God.

Thats the thing though- I had a chapter sister that married a guy that she knew for three months. They had two kids and ended up divorced (he mentally abused the hell out of her). Then she moved home, met some guy, married him had ANOTHER kid and divorced. But whenever she sees me with a guy that I am dating she wants to lecture me on how I am sinning. EXCUSE ME? She isn't the only one. Living in Kentucky I am constantly reminded that I am a sinner. Yes, I realize my choices sometimes lead me towards sin, but just because she got married before she screwed him doesn't make her better than me.

Maybe that is what bugs me.... but then again maybe I just wish people would mind their own damn business.

I knew that, I think it's a natural reaction and I didn't feel personally attacked. I think that for the vast majority, they have every intention of living up to those marital vows at the time and they really do struggle with guilt and difficult decisions. Divorce isn't fun for most, for sure. It's a lot harder to get divorced than it is to get married (logistically and practically) and it probably should be the other way to around! Thanks for the hug though. I can honestly say that I never dreamed as a college student that I'd be a twice divorced single mom. It definitely wasn't the plan.

There is a woman at my work who is ordained and does weddings. She said that if I got married again, she would do my ceremony. I told her "Jackie, How many times do you think I could say 'til death do us part' and still hold any credibility???" She laughed and said that I could just say "til we part" and it would still be legal. LOL But, I'm not going down that road again anyway!

I don't get your comparison..
 

You sound like you are comparing apples and oranges. It seems like you are saying that premarital sex will prevent divorce, but I'm sure that most people don't get divorced just because the sex isn't perfect. Having premarital sex with a hundred people wouldn't insure marital bliss unless the only thing you look for in a mate is someone who's good in bed.

I don't think that this is a valid comparison, either. Whether you want to believe it or not, sex is NOT the crux of a marriage - respect for your partner is. You can have tons of mind-blowing sex, but the very second that you lose respect for your partner, you're toast. The amount of hard work it takes to get that respect back into the marriage equation is probably the hardest thing anyone has ever accomplished.

This is not directed at anyone here, but in general, I have never understood how it is anything but hypocritical for practicing Christians to have premarital sex and act like it's okay and not a violation of Christian teachings and morals.

I think 90% of the Christians I've ever encountered pick and choose what rules they want to follow, and I don't get that.

I'd agree with you, but I don't want to come off as judgmental.

I'm not sure about acting okay - I'm fully aware whenever I'm doing anything outside of Christian teachings and morals.

For me at least, it's more trying to live as good a life as I can within those teaching and morals. I know I'm not living perfectly within those rules, but I also know it would be impossible for me to live completely within those teachings. I do what I can and I'll answer for it when it's all said and done. I just try to live the best life that I can and try to be the best person that I can.

I know that doesn't make me an perfect Christian, but I can't change who I am.

LOL, good point. I don't want to sound judgmental at all, and I hope I don't. I'm not Christian and therefore don't give a rat's ass about Christian teachings or whether anyone follows them.

I suffer from a weird sort of what I call "spiritual perfectionism" where I feel as if I shouldn't call myself a follower of any specific religious doctrine unless I'm going to make a serious effort to comply with all of the teachings/rules/morals of said religious doctrine. That's just me, and I know most people don't feel the same way. For now, I'm a non-practicing quasi-Buddhist, LOL.

I agree with you - that's why I explored so many different religions before I "chose" one. I once heard the expression "cafeteria Catholic" and found that amusing! Why be part of a religion where you have to pick & chose which values you agree with & which you don't. Why bother?

I am Catholic, but I don't agree with the doctrine 100% or the teachings.
Just as when America was founded people used the Bible to say women were subserviant and not as important as the men I feel that perhaps my religion has not developed to where it should be.

I believe in birth control. If a family cannot financially afford a child they should try to avoid it, otherwise they place an undue burden on themselves and ultimately the rest of society (at least in places like America where we have Welfare).
That is just an example.

Not only that but I also take into account that the bible was written when women were married at 12 and people died at 40. That isn't how life is now. I am not saying the same principles don't apply, but at the same time this is not the same world.

I wouldn't say I pick and choose, I love my religion and my faith, however there is NO religion that I can agree with 100% and short of starting "Sarahism" I find that I can most agree with and follow the doctrine within Catholicism... that is my choice.

I have a hard time understanding people that don't have any faith- what guides their morals? If you were to have a country of people that had NO faith whatsoever where would they turn to in order to say this is right and this is wrong? You can say people just know or use common sense, but that isn't necessarily true- seeing as how a psychopaths common sense isn't the same as mine.

Sorry for the ramblings, just sharing my experience.

Edited to add- I chose Catholicism when I was 21- after studying everything from Ba Hai, Judiasm, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and a dozen or so Christian religions.

In some ways I agree with this and in some ways i don't. Just like divorce and sex I think religion is a personal choice. I was raised Catholic and so there are certain parts of the religion that I still believe in, but there are also parts that I think are antiquated and ridiculous. So I would never say "I'm a practicing Catholic" but I also don't think it's anyone's business what I choose to believe. I believe in these values because they are important to me, not because they make me a "Catholic".

But if I walk around judging others and saying "I'm Christian/Catholic/Buddhist/etc." then I could see how someone's behavior would be put at issue. Luckily I couldn't care less about whether someone is having premarital sex or any of that so no one should ever be analyzing my choices...lol

I wanted to say this, but like honeychile said, I didn't want to come off as judgmental. I've gone to my church for about 8 years, and have grown up around a bunch of those kids (even though i rarely talk to them). I decided to join one of the college youth groups that the church has and found myself surrounded by the kids I grew up with. Well, we went to Applebees one day and everyone just started talking about different things, and the subject of sex came up. I was surprised that 90% of the people (even the pastor's daughter---i suppose) were sexually active. I hate to admit it, but it did change the attitude I had of them...not necessarily in a bad way, but I pretty much thought the same thing that Valkyrie wrote. If your a "Christian" and try to live in a Godly way, how could u go off and freely talk about ur sexual escapades and think its ok? Especially since I'm a new person, maybe they thought I was sexually active as well?!

I also believe that if you don't really need to find a specific religion (I.E. Catholicism, Evangelism, Presbyterianism, Mormonism, Lutheranism, etc). As long as you have God in your heart, believe that Jesus is his son who came down to earth and died for our sins....and just try to live a Godly way (and not just by doing good deeds, but trying to live the way God says through his Word--the bible) then your all good. I dont think you necessarily have to go to a specific "church."

Everything you list is a branch of Christianity, which is a specific religion.

Totally off the sex/divorce topic, but I find this so odd. I hear of so many Catholics who say there are lots of things they don't agree with, but they "choose" it anyway. Now, I understand it might be a little hard to decide "Never mind, Jesus isn't the savior" and convert to a non-Christian religion - though I know people do. But often the things that Catholics don't "like" about their religion are things I think of as being more "liberal". So I guess I often wonder what it is that the other, more liberal denominations DO stand for that the Catholic folks don't like. Hmmm, GeelyPenguin would be a good mind to pick about this...:)

Now, I could be TOTALLY wrong here because I am not catholic, BUT looking at it from that view wouldn't both premarital sex and divorce be considered Mortal sin, therefore placing them at the same level of "badness" ?


I've discussed this with my friend who is catholic, and this is how she feels, and I'd be willing to bet other catholics do as well.
I think, for the most part catholic people who disagree with the more "conservative" parts of their faith don't find something "offensive" about other, more "liberal" protestant branches of christianity.... (and some branches are JUST as conservative as catholicism) They LIKE the other parts of being catholic, the rituals and ceremonies (communion, saying the rosary...) are really beautiful, and most protestant faiths have done away with those aspects of religion.

i think a lot - maybe even most - people are not in absolute concordance with a singular religious doctrine. one ideology or religion is never enough to encompass all of the choices in every situation imaginable and unimaginable. what your hypocritic divorcee friend is laying on you may be true for her and hers; but not for you and others (and miami vice versa.)

Sarahism or Sarahdox Catholicism sounds like a great religion. I'd convert if I hadn't found Tulei Almighty through Tuleism. just remember, "Tibi seris, tibi metis" is Latin for something in Latin.

Sorry ilovemyglo - but this pretty much sums it up. But they don't have the right to judge you - sounds like they should spend more time in the self-examination mode.

Ah...that's right, I didnt catch my mistake..i'm sorry. I guess I should have just said "different sectors" instead of "different religions."

But everything else after that is still the same:

As long as you have God in your heart, believe that Jesus is his son who came down to earth and died for our sins....and just try to live a Godly way (and not just by doing good deeds, but trying to live the way God says through his Word--the bible) then your all good.

Right, that's the idea I've heard before - though I don't know of any protestant faith that doesn't take communion?! Is there one? But I just don't understand how cermonies and rituals can be more of a deciding factor than, for instance, a stance on ordaining women or condemning homosexuals to hell.

BTW, I promise I'm not judging, just wondering! :) AND, my father's side of the family is uber Irish Catholic, so it's not like I haven't been exposed to my fair share of it.

Hm, so you're saying that I'm not all good. Oh well. Someone was bound to say it eventually. ;)

They might take it but not as often and not with the same amount of ceremony.

Although Glitter's right...I'm Lutheran (aka Catholic lite) and can't imagine ever going to a church where the minister wears a regular old suit. :)

Well, not as often is true, but just as much ceremony - just a different kind.

AND, that's just my point. You're going to choose a religion based on what the minister wears? And I know that's not exactly what you are saying, but I just think if religion is not something to be taken lightly, why would you make decisions based on the "fluffier" parts of it? (and by YOU I don't just mean 33girl!)

OH, and valkyrie, I think you are just fine! Pretty swell, even! :)

FYI, many nondenominational churches (which are not properly called Protestant because they're not protesting anything) are much more conservative than the Catholic church. They do take communion, but they don't believe in transubstiation (that the wafer literally becomes the body of Christ), and don't say the rosary as it's not in the Bible.

I've gone to a couple nondenominational churches; I actually prefer them, when their message agrees with my beliefs. It's easier to find a small "non-dom" with the same belief system as mine than one of the more popular sects

Why thank you! :D

You know....
 

...when I was in high school, I was a goody two shoes who swore I'd wait to have sex until I was married....

6 years later I thank God (no pun intended) that i did not. Because I got engaged when I was 22, to a man who was NOT right for me. We called it off before it was too late (legally) but not until after we had already slept together.

I'm gonna offend someone with this, but I'm gonna say it anyway: If I had waited for THAT, I would have been one unhappy, pissed off, disappointed "i cant believe I waited for THAT...THAT is what the BIG DEAL is about? Yawn, boring" person and I probably would have turned into an assexual being. In short: It sucked.

I dont remember who said it, but someone mentioned that they didnt necessarily believe you had to wait to be married, but that it should be with someone who you honestly thought mgiht be the one. I agree. I dont think you shoudl be wild and crazy about it, but I no longer think its necessary to wait. As cliche as it sounds, you probably wouldnt buy a car before giving it a test drive, right? Not saying you should test drive a hundred cars....but, yeah. You get the idea.

It always amazes Me when people quote the Bible or The 10 Commandments, and the Dogma of certain Relegions.

I just wonder, are not all Animals of every type supposed to be Gods Children?

Now, who preforms the Marriage Rite for Non Homo Sapiens?

How do we get eggs, Bacon, Beef, potatoes and carrots? They preform a sexual function of some kind dont they? We just call it something different.:)

Actually as was said, SEX is just a small part of Mariage. It is the first step in the many steps to see if you will be compatable. I dang sure wouldnt want shoes that pinch my feet.:eek:

The rules of the Catholic church that I don't agree with are some of the "man-made" rules that they've chosen to enforce with no religious reason for it. Such as interpreting "Be fruitful and multiply" as meaning "Don't use birth control ever". That is an interpretation of one line in the Bible that the church leaders decided is very important. They don't allow women to be priests because none of the disciples were women, they claim. Huh? Well of course at that time in history, none of the disciples were women because women were second class citizens then. They couldn't be disciples and be taken seriously. That has changed though.

I do think you'd have to create your own religion to find one which you agree with in every way. Each person who reads the Bible finds different meaning and interpretation in it, but we look to others to find out what it means. It will even mean something different if you read it when you're in a different state of mind.

That said, I have nothing against other Christian religions but I am most comfortable worshipping in the manner that Catholics worship during mass. When I feel a need to worship publicly, I am most comfortable doing it during a mass which is solemn, serious and which involves active participation on my part. The part of the Catholic mass where someone is interpreting the Bible for me is very short. And, the Eucharist is the absolute main reason that when I attend church, it is a Catholic church. There is no where else that I can receive the Body and Blood of Christ and when I am seeking that spiritual nourishment, that is where I go.

By the way, it's not a sin to be divorced if you're Catholic. In fact, they don't recognize divorce. You are still married, even if you're divorced. Therefore, it's only a sin if you actually cheat on that person you're still married to. If you get your first marriage annulled, then your first marriage was never sanctioned and doesn't count, so then you can re-marry.

Matthew 5:31-32: No divorce, except for fornication: "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

1 Corinthians 7:10-12: No divorce, on any grounds: "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. Paul wrote this passage in response to questions raised by the church at Corinth about divorce and remarriage. He says that God does not allow divorce. If a couple divorces against the will of God, then their only options are to remain single, or to reconcile and restore their marriage..

Found this cool link that compares the beliefs of numerous religious denominations. Very interesting stuff:

Religions are Different

Dee

Ah, but as our very knowledgeable friend MysticCat once pointed out:

"The older Protestant groups -- the Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans -- all teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are received in the Sacrament. They may disagree with each other (and with the Catholic Church) about how this happens, but they do teach that it does happen."

But again, I guess it's in the details. :)

Next question -
So, my parents got married in the Catholic church and had my brother and I. Then they got divorced. Many years later my dad wanted to get remarried so he asked my mom to go through with the annullment. So, doesn't that make my brother and I bastards in the eyes of the church and make my parents real sinners?

Funny part of the annullment - it didn't go through in time for the second marriage. So, not only did my dad have to get married in a Presbyterian church (which is what my mom happens to be), but it was a female minister! We're lucky Grandma didn't have a heart attack that day! :D

But if a couple divorces and then one of them dies, the other is free to remarry, right? In the eyes of the Church they'd be a widow/widower, right? You can't reconcile with an ex who's dead.