"We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or not"
 

So, there's a hill that has a giant cross on it down here in SD, and a bunch of atheists have been trying to have it taken down since 1989. The land the cross is on has been disputed for sometime, and yesterday, in a special election, we voted 75% to 25% to transfer the cross to the federal gov to maintain it.

Now, this Civil Rights lawyer named McElroy keeps saying this isn't an issue for the voters to decide, it's the court's. He backs that up by saying:

"We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or not,"

Ok, comparing something that happened back then, when people of color didn't have the same civil rights as whites, to a dispute thats cost millions in taxpayer dollars that a few atheists are complaining about is assinine. To say this isn't a matter of the people just shows how contradictory some of these civil rights lawyers really are

San Diego.......clouding the corrupt, incompetent government and operations with "we have hot girls and nice beaches".

________________________________________________


Voters Overwhelmingly Approve Initiative To Save Cross

Wed Jul 27, 1:17 PM ET

Supporters of the Mount Soledad cross celebrated Tuesday after voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot initiative aimed at preserving the monument by transferring it to the federal government.


But the fight over the controversial monument may not be over.

"We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or not," said James McElroy, attorney for a resident who sued the city over the cross' presence on city land 16 years ago, beginning a protracted and complex legal battle.

McElroy vowed to challenge the issue in court yet again.

"This will be resolved in the courtroom where it deserves to be resolved and not in front of the voters," McElroy told the media.

City Attorney Michael Aguirre has also warned that it would be unconstitutional for the city to transfer the cross to the government, because it would be done primarily to preserve a religious symbol.

Despite the potential legal snarls, supporters of Proposition A were all smiles after election returns gave the measure an easy victory -- even though it needed approval from two-thirds of voters.

With all 721 precincts counted, Proposition A had support from 75.9 percent of voters.

"It's humbling," said Phil Thalheimer, one of the Proposition A campaign leaders.

"I never would have expected these types of numbers," Thalheimer said. "I hoped for it, and anticipated it but, in my heart I didn't think we'd do this well."

Thalheimer said the issue went across party and religious lines, and was a "unifying piece for San Diego."

The City Council placed the measure on the ballot in May after a signature-gathering effort organized by a group called San Diegans fnr the Mount Soledad National War Memorial.

The transfer was proposed by two San Diego-area congressmen as a way to prevent the cross' removal from the La Jolla hilltop.

Federal permission for the transfer was included in a spending bill signed by
President George W. Bush.

Supporters are hoping Tuesday's big win at the polls will end the 16-year legal dispute, which began when resident Philip Paulson sued the city.

Paulson argued that the cross' presence on public land violated separation of church and state provisions in both the U.S. and California constitutions.

Judges twice ruled that the sale of the land to the Mount Soledad Memorial Association, which maintains the site as a veterans memorial, was unconstitutional because one group was favored over another.

San Diego voters in November rejected a ballot measure, Proposition K, that would have authorized another sale of the land in an effort to correct the consitutional violations.

Democracy beats anything else doesnt it?:confused:

We may not like it, but it beats the other alternatives.

Now, My Quesion is is Mc Elroy a ACLU Lawyer? Or just a I am for Civil Rights? What is His Agenda? Fame Maybe?:(

To be truthful, this is History, it did happen! So, what is the reason for bringing this up?


Rosa Parks is a small part of History, whethere it be small or big, it is still History! She is still an important part of it like many others!

Have you been by The Church Of Martin Luther King in Atlanta, I have!!!!

TristanDSP, still History isnt it like America fighting against The British for Self Government?

HAAY, I voted for that cross to stay up there--EVERY TIME IT CAME BEFORE A VOTE!!!

If those dayum atheists want to prop up their images on a barren mountain in SoCal (good luck), then let them!

But they want "civil rights" violations now??? WTF??? What do the troops have to say about that who just came from Iraq???

Anyhow, there is a reasonable amount of sniper distance from one hill to another when those protesting atheists start their rantings...

That's when I haveta say, "God Bless Texas"...

It will be decades - assuming that conservatives retain control of the White House and Congress - for the lib judges to die off/retire and be replaced by judges who want to interpret the law, not make it.

As we didn't vote to give Rosa a well-deserved seat, we didn't vote to legalize abortion or to require school busing and 1000's of other things. Liberal judges in GA are about to give the overpaid and underworked (would you believe 51 'personal' days off each year) transit workers more, and about to tell the state how much money to give some rural counties (who don't tax themselves much) for education.

It's time for judges to stop making laws.

Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or no
 

This is the only statement in this entire thread that makes any sense. Put the cross on private land and STFU.

Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or no
 

That's the thing... It was voted to make that land private. It is an old WWII memorial. San Diego, CA is a huge military town and has that legacy. To remove the cross from the mountains it was put upon would be erasing part of the culture of San Diego.

I guess folks can say the same thing about the Confederate Flag...

But the land is now privately owned... It used to not be owned privately, but now it is... And the opposition wants to fight a losing court battle that has been voted on by the people 3 times and have lost the vote...

I can see if it was about people and affecting their rights as citizens.

But this is about a landmark in the city about the men who died for this country placing a Christian marker on land to memorialize them. That is all it is about...

If that cross is removed, these buttwipes will decimate the land and pave paradise and put up a parking lot...

Whatever, for the will of the people...

Freedom ain't free, I guess...

Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or no
 

This sentence made no sense...who put up the marker? The soliders or people trying to memorialize them? And since when is the miliary solely a Christian organization? What about the other religious groups that soliders may be affliated with? If your argument is that it should stay up to remember the soliders then I think you need to consider getting a Star of David and a Cresent Moon up there too.

What about the soldiers that are atheist?

Them too sorry but since she mentioned them using the cross to memorialize the soliders I was trying to point out the religious diversity that exists in the military and I just ran with that...

I guess it's time to redo all that American money too, what with "IN GOD WE TRUST" being written all over it everywhere. Oy vey......:rolleyes: :p

I think "In God We Trust" should be removed from money. However, this would be extremely costly and inconvenient, so I'd rather fight other battles.

Re: Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front of the bus or
 

After WWII and the Korean War, the veterans in San Diego put that cross on Mt. Soladad, Mt. Helix and another mountain in Sweetwater to memorialize the members who were lost during the war. That is just how old these crosses are. They correspond to the historical Spanish accents throughout the whole San Diego landscape--that is why they were painted in the Spanish stucco white colors. There are 2 large Spanish built catholic churches also atop 2 mountains in San Diego that correspond to the ones in San Juan Capistrano and San Francisco. They are the Presidio, which is a National Park and a historical marker and the Mission De Alcala, which is a historical marker. I think either the Jesuits or the Franciscans still hold services at these locations.

Also there is Point Loma that has the school Pt. Loma Nazarene that follows religious Spanish architecture, as well as La Jolla, San Diego State University and Balboa Park.

It is just the history of the city. I am not make it up, nor am I bullshitting here.

Most of the veterans after WWII and the Korean war were Christian and so were their families.

You have to understand that San Diego is still a MILITARY TOWN--with the largest Naval operations during WWII, Korean, Vietnam and the Gulf War... They also have Camp Pendleton Marines and the Marine Helicopter Base in Miramar. Even the old MCRD buildings that were allegedly sold off in the 1990s are built in the religious Spanish architecture style. However, the Naval ops center as well as north island don't have too many Spanish build buildings, but Coronado does.

The issue is the removal of something endearing to San Diego for over 60 years. It is part of its history for ALL wars except maybe this current one. Either way, most Navy and Marine personnel as well as other outfits MUST go through San Diego if they are deployed off something that is on water or a naval plane... Even some stealths go through San Diego--and I've seen them personally...

Yes, maybe it was not appropriately handled the first time this cross burning idea was brought up in 1980-something... The fact that the land was governmental land, etc. was an issue. However the people voted and changed that issue and made it private land sometime in the 1990's. Then there were issues with the way the cross just sticks out, that got voted on and folks turned it down. Why? Too many MILITARY PERSONNEL not appreciating the idea of removing ANY MEMORIAL to them...

Hayle, it ain't about other religions putting up their icons on mountains if they want to. In fact, some do in San Diego--or maybe Mexico, I haven't seen very many on a large piece of land like Mt. Soledad, but they are there. The Buddhist Temple in University Heights and the Mosque in Claremont off Balboa Ave. And there are numerous Jewish markers all over San Diego now. The Mormons have a HUGE temple in La Jolla off the 5 and it is a monstrosity...

What this vote is about is respecting the veterans who come home back from war and telling them their memorials built for them are bullshit and invalid...

And as far as the Atheist go, well, you cannot serve without getting fragged if you're an atheist in the military. You better believe in something... Your CO will make you believe in him if you don't... I am not being funny, it is just a fact... All I can say, if you don't believe in nothing, good luck on the battlefield...

Well, there are people who don't agree that "in God we trust" should be on the money. I for one will admit I don't because I'm agnostic. But even if you concede that "in God we trust" is appropriate. God is a much more inclusive concept than a Christian cross. A cross is actually very exclusive. It is a representation of Jesus Christ as the messiah. It promotes that specific idea. And anyone who does not believe in that concept is not represented by a cross.
The government shouldn't be promoting any version of God, or God at all for that matter. A cross promotes the idea that Jesus was the messiah, and I don't think the government should be in the business of promoting Jesus. We have churches and missionaries to do that.
Furthermore, if Christians want a specific memorial to remember Christian members of the service or to recognize the sacrifice of all in the military from a Christian perspective they are free to do that ... they just have to buy their own land and put their own memorial.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front
 

Monet, using "monstrosity" 's being too nice to the cult and that abomination that they worship in.

We are talking 1945 here when these icons were put on top of mountains in San Diego...

We are not talking about 2 years ago, Iraq War...

Yes, things change. But buildings do not change unless there is a catastrophe.

The folks the put these icons up are no longer living and only their children speak for them.

However, to discount their efforts of keeping a part of history on PRIVATE LAND that was VOTED ON BY THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE--I.E. DEMOCRACY IN ACTION--means your freedom is called into question...

Hey, I know too many folks fighting in Iraq for my rights. Some have died there too. No matter what their beliefs are, they are changed. And it is just foul to neglect their chances to obtain some well deserved respect regardless of whether or not we think this war is right or wrong...

Most of these KIDS that become MEN AND WOMEN will be coming back with many problems, at least we can give them some solace to go to a park and settle their beliefs at a location they feel respects them...

You take away a soldier's rights... Then you have a bunch of mercenaries that are loose cannons in public... They can shoot rifles, well you know... Many are excellent marksmen and women... Most are tank drivers on convoy... Good luck with that right taking from service personnel...

Just curious when it was moved to private land...who owned/owns the land?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "We didn't vote about whether Rosa Parks got to sit on the front
 

I can't help it if their temple looks better than the Magic Kingdom's at Disneyland... :rolleyes:

Back when they finished building it, I was too scared to go inside... I would feel too... I dunno... Improper... Most of friends said it had many rooms for those who wanted to get married. The sanctuary was extremely beautiful, Crystal Cathedral-like...

However, folks need to know that if we start taking religious icons down in San Diego, then everybody's gotta go--including some folks churches, such as the Mormom temple off the 5...

There are plenty of other ones--half of State's stuff would have to go because the old Fletcher Chimes building was put up there to mimic the religious Spanish architecture...

USD's stuff might have to go because they have that dome that sticks out off the hill...

As well as that turquoise dome off the MLK 94 freeway... Good luck with that one, 'cuz that's in the 'hood... Hayle the other Pinkish catholic church off Imperial Ave has that Shell that's owned by the Iraqi's back in the day... One of the guys is my Dad's patient...

And then there all these Baptist Churches...

Whew-hoo... Too many religious icons would have to be razed...

Oh don't get me started on the lunatics trying to change everything about the culture of SDSU by taking the nickname "Aztec" and taking it WAY out of context.

Mecha in high school: Excellent, actually did stuff in the community and raised educational awareness.

Mecha in college: Whiners and complainers who feel California should be given back to Mexico, and feel that the "Jewish owned media" is doing whatever it can to "deface" their culture.

You should probably read about the fiasco that wound up with that being on the money to start . . . hint: it didn't start there, and is most likely something that, if challenged, would be removed . . . but not because of separation of church and state or lack of official religion.

Well, I was still at State when all the "Aztec" stuff went down. I saw both sides. On the one hand, the folks the made the "Aztecs" idea for State up--most of them alumni who are very old said they were thinking of something that would reflect the culture of San Diego back in the 1920's.

The kids at MeChA are really following the La Raza who have hooked up with several 1st Nation groups that want to eliminate all usage of Native American negative imagery from the United States.

At some level I have to agree with MeChA. State was making fool out of "Monte Montezuma" at the football games which was disrespectful. Now, they only present the costuming at respectable events. And ever since the Native American gaming has made a lot of money in SoCal, they have more political clout.

Why did these old foggies make up something like Aztecs in the first place for representation of SDSU? They cannot answer that question directly... So, at some level, that needs to change. But the buildings cannot change unless they are burnt down or taken down by an earthquake.

I'm not sure I agree with your opinion about how Monte Montezuma was used.

Perhaps I'm just going off football games, but I saw a well recieved mascot who can get our usually apathetic crowd going.

Of course, that support only grew when Ambassador Montezuma came, and thank heaven's went. When Carlos came back as the Aztec Warrior, I've never seen so many SDSU students proud and happy to see him again at the games.

Say what you want about Monte, but Amabassador Montezuma was 100000 times worse.....pineapple head with ballet shoes.....

My other question Monet is what else you can think of to nickname our school that will represent SDSU and San Diego....Tritons and Toreros are taken :D.

Oh so they changed it back... So much for keeping up with alumni news...

The students at State do have to understand that State is not the center of San Diego. San Diego is a much larger place than them... Yeah, it has party school character. But, the students ought to see life beyond PB and Rosarita or the Caliente Line...

I don't think at this time the "Aztec Charm" can be changed back very easily... It hypes people up... Old and young... It is wrong still, but hey, SoCal doesn't care about right and wrong too much or whether it is offensive or not...

They just make up propositions and vote what will be right or wrong...

You have got me there....

You can look at San Diego from two angles:

Reality: Our local government is corrupt and incompetent (Murphy couldn't have resigned at a worse time, costing millions for this special election that really had no relevance since McElroy's going back to court and Donald Frye didn't get 50% of the vote), which comes down to this: we live in the worst city in the most laughed at state in the union (look at our governor), in the most hated nation on the planet.

Socal Attitude: Who cares? We've got nice beaches and hot girls. Who cares about politics when we've got TJ and PB?

Monet, as much as I've defended my hometown, I can't wait to get to Chicago or Boston and deal with real people who don't exist in this Gucci/Abercrombie bubble, where I'm on the outside looking in as a lower-middle class Asian who exists in a system of spoiled rich kids from OC, Agoura and Norcal.

So Sanders didn't get any votes? The smoked out weed Frye chick barely got 50%...

I met Murphy after he won is first Mayoral race. Didn't like him because he beat out my favorite, SDSU alum, Ron Roberts. Tripped out 'cuz Murphy said he wanted his daughter to go to med school rather than UC Davis because she can take care of him... That was funny as hayle...

I still love San Diego. It will always be my hometown, forever. Too bad it got too expensive to live there. Fortunately, I still have my parents there as well as my brother. He's currently living in no-job Hell and has no political clout...

I think that most of the decision making folks from San Diego are out on deployment. Once they get back, a lot of lunacy will be cleaned up. Folks ain't gonna like it, but, no matter what folks think, it is either:

The right way...

The wrong way...

Or the Military way...

And the Marines ALWAYS go first...

And don't hate on the spoiled rich kids... There will be a draft soon, whether daddy buys off the government or not, who knows... If they don't have a get outta jail free card and escape from LA access road, then they will be right in the desert with all the other under 40 folks too...

I know President Teddy Roosevelt wanted the words removed from currency during his term (or at least for the treasury to stop putting it on currency from his presidency onward), but I didn't know there was a debate at the start...I'll have to check that out.

ETA: Just remembered - are you talking about the National Reform Association (might have the name of the organization wrong)?