The gender war: GC women against GC women?
 

When you talk about life expectations for women I tend to see a conflict between those that espouse tradtional values of feminity, those that reject those values, and those that tread a perilous path in between.

I think that its very well illustrated here in the dating forum when you look at the posts about wedddings, engagements, rings etc.

There are definitely women on here that believe fervently that marriage is a major part of the life of a woman and it seems that they regard their relationships with men as somehow part of their identity.

Conversely we have many vocal women on here that seem to look at marriage, or at least the tradtional marriage, as somehow antiquated. And also don't seem to think that "Acting" feminine is that important anymore.

PErsonally I am abig advocate that all people should strive towards self-development and success and should seek definition through their relationships. I believe that a lot of traditional feminine virtues actually hold women back and prevent them from the happiness they seek . . .

However, if women in general rejected all the commonly accepted cultural values of being feminine, what would the world be like?

How would men respond to you when we are conditoned to relate to women when they act only in certain ways?

How would we deal with the social aspects of raising children if all women believed that marriage was a dated concept? Or that their careers had to take precedence over their biology in terms of reproduction?

I think you ladies catch my drift. I know this is hastily written and I deliberately didn't define some of the terms. But I believe this to be a valid and important discussion.

I am interested in your own opinions about what you think of traditional feminine culture (and what you think it is) as well as the pressure of being a modern a woman and where on the spectrum you think women should come out.

Feminism is about choice. As a feminist, I believe that any way that a woman chooses to live her life, provided that she's not hurting other people, is (1) none of my business and (2) a proper action for that woman to take. It's not my place to condemn someone because she chose a more- or less-traditional role than I did.

First, I wouldn't call it a war, but you raise some interesting questions and observations.

Anyway, I'm sure anyone who knows me knows that I'm pretty much the opposite of traditional, and personally, I have no use for traditional feminine culture, at least as I define it.

I'm not sure that I agree that men are conditioned to relate to women who only act in certain ways -- I'm sure some are, but I don't know any of them, at least not well. I'm interpreting what you said as implying that certain men are conditioned to relate only to women who act according to "traditional" feminine ideals -- is that what you meant? I suppose that since I am not at all traditional, I have no use for men like that. Being as I am, I've certainly never had trouble finding men who relate to me for who I am, no matter how off in left field some people may think that is.

I have absolutely no use for engagement rings, weddings, dividing household chores according to traditional gender roles, changing my last name, having children (which I don't think relates to my views on being a woman -- I just don't have the desire, and I think that's a separate issue entirely), and I don't think being with a man has anything to do with who I am as a person. It's easy for me to say since I haven't spent any major time not being in a relationship for over 10 years, but I'm pretty sure I would be perfectly happy and content to be single and living alone with my 900 cats if I didn't have a man who rocked my world.

If all women thought marriage was a dated concept (which I don't believe has a chance in hell of ever happening) I don't see how that would make a huge difference in terms of raising children. All women will never put career over reproduction. It's just not going to happen.

I've never felt any pressure from anyone to be anything other than what I am, and if I did I'd put the verbal smackdown on someone for trying to pressure me to do anything. I don't feel any pressure to be married or to have kids, and I'm still torn as to whether I'm interested in being married or not although I know for sure I never want children. Anyone who pressures any woman to do something is pretty lame -- each woman should be free to live her life according to what is important to her and what she wants, and everyone else needs to respect that or STFU. I may not understand the desire to get married, have babies and wash your husband's underwear, but if that's what makes you happy then that's what you should do.

The only thing that really bothers me is when women settle for guys who aren't what they really want, but being in a relationship is so important to them they do it, or they're so terrified of being alone they'd rather be with someone lame or someone who bores them or whatever, or they want to have teh babiez so they settle for some ass as sperm donor/daddy figure. Of course half of these women don't realize what they're doing, but it's painfully obvious to others. I think women should have enough respect for themselves to not settle for anything other than the best.

James,
I definitely see where you're coming from but I think your view may be a little skewed. As valkyrie said, to I don't think any of the comments people (myself included) have made to others necessarily depend on the person's gender, it seems to depend on the choices they are making and posting about them on GC. It may be that on this site women are just more likely to bitch about relationship issues and so you're seeing something that you are perceiving as a 'catfight' or 'traditional' v. 'modern' women. I think all of the women who seem to be reacting to the 'traditional' role would be just as reactive to a man who wrote the same types of things.
That being said, like sistermadly so succinctly said, a feminist is about supporting choices for women...whether the choice is a marriage with 1.5 kids a white picket fence and a dog or a loft in the city with a high powered career (or both of those combined, for that matter), it doesn't matter to me as long as the person is happy with their choices.

This is a very common subject on the veterinary website I am a member of. We have discussed the fact that due to our female gender our salaries are about 0.70$ to every 1$ men earn. Many men have acknowledged this as well-several articles have been written, so the proof is out there. Many practice owners say that women are unpredictable. They will tend to get married (or already be married) and thus children come next and who loses out-the career and thus the practice owner that hired them. Then there are those women that are not married(me), no children and feel that the married ones are creating a stereotype and holding us back at times due to this stereotype.

There are the practice owners (mainly men but some women as well) that expect some of the female associates that have children to raise them and also maintain a 60 hour work week-a few can but most can't do this. As women and as professionals, many of us feel torn between or careers and family. Something usually has to give, not many can do it all. I work with 2 women that have children and work full time-one has her mother taking care of her little girl during the day and the other has a stay at home husband. If they didn't have this help there would be no way they could work full time.

As more and more women enter the profession (about 60-70% of vet students are women) and the older vets (mainly men) retire-our profession is going to go through a huge change. Some good, some bad. The next 10-20 years are going to be very interesting.

I am not sure if this is what you were getting at James, but I thought I would express my view on my own profession.

ETA-sorry about typos and spelling errors, I am a scientist not a writer :)

Ditto to what valkyrie said.

bring it on.

As Sistermadly said, feminism is about choice.

As recently as my parents' generation, women were expected to get married, have children, and be SAHMs. If you weren't married and a mother by 25 or so, something was wrong with you. Few career paths were open to women - of course, there were women in science, engineering, medicine, etc., but they faced uphill battles to get there. Women who wanted to make choices other than marriage and children and SAHM-ness were frowned upon.

Nowadays, women do have choices. A woman can choose to get married or not, to have children or not, to have a career outside the home or not. I don't think the day will ever come when every woman rejects the notions of a "traditional" marriage and of having children.

I've made some traditional choices and some less traditional choices. I am married, but if my husband had not come into my life, I would not have married some schmuck just to have a ring on my finger. I've chosen to have a career outside the home, and to continue to do so even if we do have children. I've also put off having children - another less traditional choice.

For women who have made different choices, I respect their choices. Each woman - and each man for that matter - has the right to choose what is right for them.

It's obvious this thread defines feminism as choices for women, which is very true. I believe a lot of women who do not choose the traditional choices that there isn't a lot of respect for those women and their choices.

To me, feminism is about choices and respect for women and their decisions. I hate to see a woman marry some schmuck just because she wants a ring on her finger and to follow some traditional way of life. On the other hand, I am happy for those who know who they are and make the right choices for themselves. Those choices can be marrying the right guy and/or having children. Those choices can be staying single and/or not having children. That's good for them.

I believe a lot of the problem that stems from traditional living and feminism is that a lot of women don't know themselves well enough to know what's good for them.

Say it again!

Thanks Intense1920!

It's always a choice. If you're the type of woman who believes in marriage, wants children, & is what most would consider a "traditionalist", if said woman is not hurting anyone else, who are we to knock her lifestyle?

At the same time, if a woman who chooses to not marry, have children, & have a career, why then must she be ridiculed by a society that places "traditional" views high above anything else.

I truly believe that a woman should live the kind of life that best suits her individual tastes. I am not one to judge them for the kind of life they want to have. If my lifestyle doesn't bother them, why should theirs bother me?

Ha I think both traditional SAHM life AND career life is oppressing. :eek:

Co-sign. Flex schedules, FMLA, etc. are wonderful in my opinion.
Silver

I agree with Sister Madly-- that it's all about choice. Thank goodness we now HAVE that choice. As someone on the tail end of the baby-boomers, I went through not having that choice for much of my life.

(Warning.. here comes my feminist rant!)

I went to school when gym class was separated-- when boys got to play sports, and all that was available for girls was cheerleading.

I wasn't allowed to be a "paperboy" because the law said boys had to be 11 and girls had to be 18.

I was constantly told all of the things I "couldn't do" just because I was female, rather than all the things I "could" do.

I hated the mold girls were expected to fit in to-- so I rebelled. I became a tom-boy.

When Title 9 came about, I was the first girl on the boys track team at my high school. I was the first girl to take "Weight-training For Men" in college (since there was no weight-training for women courses) and.. btw.. I got an "A."

I was in the martial arts when it wasn't considered "feminine" to be involved in a contact sport. I was forced to wear a white stripe along the length of my belt, simply because I was a woman in judo. White designates novice, and the thinking then was that a woman could never achieve the full ranking of a man. In order to compete in judo, the AAU mandated all women wear that dreaded white stripe.

Oh yes, and I had to do twice as much as a man to get my black belt-- yet I still was forced to wear that white stripe telling the world how inferior I was. Thank goodness that rule was abolished in the 1980's.

I'm in broadcast journalism, and continually get frustrated with the double standard in TV. Women have to be thin, gorgeous and young, while men on TV can be fat, bald and ugly. Ever see a weather woman who looked like Al Roker?

I get tired of the magazines that ruin women's self esteem by constantly telling them how to lose weight, how to get a man, how to keep a man, and why they should get fake breasts. Yet men's magazines are all about cars and electronics.

And don't get me started on "Hooters." Why is there not a "Peckers?!!"

Do I believe in marriage? Yep-- if that's what you want. Personal choice.

Do I want to get married? Yep-- if Mr. Right comes along, but so far, I've only met Mr. Wrong. And, like Valkyre, I'd rather be single-- (but with 900 dogs and birds rather than cats) than marry just for the sake of marrying. I don't need a man to define me.

Do I want kids? Yep-- but only if he's willing to get pregnant!

And James... I'm curious-- how does a woman "act feminine?" Does that mean we don't sit on the sofa every Sunday watching football and belching? :)

blueangel, I am so glad I can call you a sister!

I guess I live in the wrong era. I think all the choice we have out there confuses us. I wrote a paper on women's education (or accomplishments as they were often called 100-150 years ago) for my degree (I went to grad school because I couldn't find a job or a husband. Men don't seem to want to get married at 23 anymore...in any case, my parents don't seem to want me to marry until I learn how to make a good meal.) and the more I researched, the more inferior I felt. I felt that girls of the past learned so much more about family preparation and knew how to run the household so much better. If I had my undergrad years to do over, I would have worked towards a degree in household management.

Blueangel, you ROCK!

Okay, I guess this just goes over my head. Do you get confused really easily? Do you ever go to a restaurant and say, "There should only be one thing on the menu, I can't handle the fact that I can pick from 26 different entrees"?

Women shouldn't be taught how to read! They won't even know what's on the menu! Their male companion should pick their dinner for them!

You mean the women get let out of the house? P'shaw, hippie!

Gotta love the image search. Although something tells me that this place just doesn't receive the same kind of publicity as Hooters.

Taualumna, single-handedly setting back women's rights 100 years.

http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/p...hotos/1014.jpg

It used to get more publicity than it does now. There's one in Ocean City (I think that's the OC one in the picture) and a lot of guys used to have the shirts. Hell, even my dad had one.

But it wasn't the same concept as hooters. Just a dirty name

There's a seafood place on (I think) Long Island (it's either there or in Jersey) called the Crab Shack or something along those lines. The shirts from there say "I got my crabs at____________(name of restaurant)." Those are pretty popular at my school.

Joe's Crab Shack?

Could be. Can't you tell I'm such a great story teller? Are the shirts from Joe's yellow? Cuz the ones I've seen people wearing are.

I have just the religion for you, Taualumna. There are hundreds of this type of men all over my fine state just waiting for you to be barefoot, pregnant, and making them pies. :D

Getting on my high horse now. In reply to TauAlumna's post & all the subsequent posts, I stand by what I said. If she chooses to live her life with these set of beliefs, she's not hurting me so why should I care? I respect a person who stands by their beliefs no matter how unpopular they might be. I may not agree with them but if they remain steadfast in their beliefs, I have to respect that.

I don't think anyone is criticizing her choice to stay at home, or want to know how to run a household. But when she says "I think all the choice we have out there confuses us," that says to me that women should have no choice...and what are we being confused about?

I work at a hospital in Pediatrics, so lots of times we get magazines like Parenting and stuff like that sent to the office. When I'm bored on my lunch break, I sometimes sit and read them. The magazine did a survey of its readers if they thought that women should go back to work after having a baby or not. This one woman thought that it was "selfish" and "bad parenting" to bring a child into this world if you couldn't stay at home with it and be there for it 24/7. Umm excuse me, in that case, at least half of the women in this country are bad, selfish mothers.

What I was trying to say is that choices confuse us because whatever we choose, we are going to be criticized for doing so. Sure, I'll make more money if I go out to work, never marry or have kids (women without families make more money than women who do because there is less outside stress, making them more productive and are more likely to be promoted quicker than women with family), but my traditional relatives will always be on my back, asking me when I'm going to find a husband and when I'm going to have kids. If I choose to stay home, I might be criticized by my modern friends who are asking me why I'm not contributing to the family income. In a modern society, a stay-at-home mother isn't thought of as highly as someone who works. My mom quit her job when I was 12, and some of her friends started believing that she wasn't as up-to-date as they were about the industry she was in (technology) because she was no longer at the office.

Fair enough. Thank you for explaining.

Personally I don't think she could have been as up to date if she wasn't in the office. Technology is a pretty fast- paced industry, and if you're not in the office constantly working with it, it's pretty easy to fall behind if you're not learning the new stuff.

Wow. I didn't know my mother-in-law even read Parenting. :p

Maybe so, but Mom's friends thought that she only knew up to what was available when she left in '91. Mom keeps up by reading industry magazines and now, online.

Okay, I totally respect how you want to live your life. That's totally cool with me. However, you're saying that having choices confuses women because we're going to be criticized for whatever we do. The thing is, that might be true for you but it's certainly not true for many women. I'm rarely, if ever, criticized for anything I do, and even if I was, it would in no way confuse me at all because I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks about how I live my life. I guess what bothers me about what you said is that it implies that women are either too stupid to make up their own minds, or that they're too spineless to do what they want how they want and not be bothered by what anyone else thinks of them. That's not always true.

I'm curious about what you posted earlier about how girls used to learn more about how to run a household. Do you know what they actually learned? I'm curious about it -- it was an entire course of study? I find that fascinating because I can't imagine how it would be necessary -- I mean, it's not that hard to clean the house, or read a cookbook if you don't know how to cook. Was there a lot more to it than that?

ha I totally thought it said women against men. I would like to change my initial response of "bring it on" to "whose got the jello and a video camera?"

I tend to think that its those women that feel their lifestyle/stance is the "correct and only one" is what causes problems.

I for one tend to lean more towards traditional gender roles. I love being a feminine women in the tradtional sense (likes looking pretty, smelling nice, make-up, wears dresses, enjoys cooking for her man, marriage, SAHM, etc.) - everything that some people may think are "June Cleaver-ish" or a "southern lady".

If another woman isn't into all that - cool, but don't criticize my choices nor call them archaic because you don't agree with them (hence where the the "beef" starts I guess). Its those people that say things like "I'm horrified that you work and have kids" or on the flip side, stuff like "Women that look forward to marriage are stupid" that are short-sighted and are often at the middle of any trouble between the two groups.