Flag Burning Amendment Advances In House
 

Flag-Burning Amendment Advances in House
By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer
40 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The House moved Wednesday toward approval of a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American flag, a measure that for the first time stands a chance of passing the Senate as well.

Lawmakers in the House debated — as they have six times before — whether such a ban would uphold or run afoul of the Constitution's free-speech protections.

Supporters said the measure reflected patriotism that deepened after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, and they accused detractors of being out of touch with public sentiment.

"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the (World) Trade Center," said Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham, R-Calif. "Ask them and they will tell you: pass this amendment."

But Rep. Jerrold Nadler (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., said, "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents."

The measure was designed to overturn a 1989 decision by the Supreme Court, which ruled 5-4 that flag burning was a protected free-speech right. That ruling threw out a 1968 federal statute and flag-protection laws in 48 states.

The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." For the language to be added to the Constitution, it must be approved not only by two-thirds of each chamber but also by 38 states within seven years.

Each time the proposed amendment has come to the House floor, it has reached the required two-thirds majority. But the measure has always died in the Senate, falling short of the 67 votes needed. The last time the Senate took up the amendment was in 2000, when it failed 63-37.

Link to article.

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Interesting -- I didn't realize how many times this amendment has been brought to a vote.

I for one hope it passes.

I placed a Flag Pole in My Front Yard as My Best Friends Son Joined the Military and I wanted to do something for Him and All of Our Men and Women. His Sister who lives next to me has a Star for Family Member in Service in Her Window.

If My Flag gets tattered, I give it to Friend and He has it disposed properally and I replace it. I gave one to My Neighbor across the street when His got very ratty, a Nam Vet. Also sent one to My Chapter when some morons showed their Freedom of speach and tore one down from our House Flag Pole.

Granted We have The Amendment of Freedom of Speach, there is also the idea of Our Flag showing what The USA stands for and all of the blood shed to get us where We are.

If someone wants to burn it, "Shoot them and let God sort them out!", Re: Dave D. another Friend.

You would kill somebody over a flag?

The main point of Freedom of Speech is to protect, more than anything, political speech found to be offensive.

Any Congressman who votes for this does not deserve to be called an American.

what he said

ditto

OKAY, then come and drag your butts to My House and Burn the Flag that I hold High as something that is a symbol of Everyone before us who made this Country what it is. Those that have paid with their Blood to give you the right to say what you say.

Yes, it is My Freedom of Speach to profess this.

It is My Freedom of Speach to say if you are so Liberal that You do not care about the Men and Women who started this country, Protected This Country with Their Lives then why are you here?

Hey, try your Freedom of Speach in certain circles and See how soon you are under suspicion of Home Land Security?:rolleyes:

Wowie, Freedom of Speach!:eek:

Try Flying on Areo Planes and see Old Ladies in Wheel Chairs Searched, have your shoes take from you and being wanded to see if you really dont fit THE PROFILE!

Amazing, simply Amazing.

Oh, why dont some of You Read what the Stars, and Stripes realy mean. Red, White, and Blue.

Read how it is supposed to be disposed of.

Read how it is supposed to be displayed and why.

Just a very sore subject when I have lnow Peop;e who were Killed trying to Protect not just The Symbol of My Country but for what they beleived in.

what's freedom of "speach"?

how important of a freedom can it be to you that you can't spell it correctly even once?

I'm not sure what the main point of Freedom of Speech is anymore. It has been interpreted fairly broadly by the courts to take in a multitude of different situations.

While obviously not technically, it seems to me that calling someone un-American because he/she votes her/his beliefs is tantamount to something as worrisome as denying Freedom of Speech.

This issue is more emotional than logical.

Sooner or later this bill is probably going to pass because a majority in Congress will believe in it. Let it be. Then let the courts decide on the Constitutionality. That's why we have separation of powers in that same document.

SAVE OUR LIBERTIES

please....

the way that things are run by the current government (and no this is not a democrat vs. republican argument) all of our Freedoms will be taken away. It cutting pretty damn close to destroying the separation of Executive, Legislative, Judicial. Any person protesting anything that even remotely considered "unpatriotic", is hung out to dry. This country was founded on the principle of protesting leaders and keeping our freedoms.

Look there are 400 million (approx) people in this country and little by little we are letting 526 people, very slowly take away each one of our hard earned freedoms. If the mass population doesn't say something soon, this country is going to turn into a not so nice place to be anymore. We (the masses) have forgotten that we have the power, we put these people in office to do "OUR BIDDING" not to pat Us on the head and say..."we know what is best for you, now just sit tight".

OK stepping off my soap box and will lurk in this thread.


edited b/c I can't spell worth a damn and I have also apparently lost the ability to use grammar correctly, that is what happens when I get all fired up

CO-SIGN

Are we so foolish to believe that we are trading our liberties for security? What security....

My 2¢
 

While in practice, I am VERY much against burning the flag, I do worry about a couple facets of this:

1) The obvious: the flag is symbolic of the United States, and the liberties it proclaims. No matter how wrong I conceive the burning of the flag as a method of protest, I don't have the right to keep you (as a generality) from being an idiot.

2) The not-so-obvious: I may go through 4-5 flags a year. They get tattered, dirty, and worn. In the correct method of disposing of these flags, I keep them aside, and have one respectful flag burning a year. What if someone turns me in as a flag burner? Once a bill like this passes, it could easily be used against someone who means no harm.

As long as we cover the coffins of deceased soldiers with the flag, I am completely against the practice of burning the flag in protest - leave that disgraceful practice to those in hostile countries. The flag NEVER stands for one party, one candidate, one politician over another - it stands for the entire United States. There is no protest in the land of the free that can justify the burning of its symbol.

And if you question that last statement, I'll launch into what happened to a sorority sister when she lost her citizenship.

Re: My 2¢
 

I wonder about this every time that this subject comes up in Congress.

Even though it is satirical as hell, America The Book is probably the best civics book ever.

Page 30:
The three branches would in essence police each other with an elaborate system of safeguards and precautions that would prevent power from being concentrated in too few hands. Quipped a jubilant [Alexander] Hamilton, "The only way it could fail is if one party gained control of not just the Executive, but also the Senate and House chambers, and upon doing so, proceeded to bring in like-minded judges!!!!" And then the Framers all laughed and laughed and laughed."

Oh, and there's also this little article urging Christians to not support the amendment, since apparently the American flag is a graven image:
http://www.alternet.org/story/22268

Shut up Tom.





Honestly, people who want to ban the burning of the flag should be expat'ed, and deported to the third world. You can whine about how much you've done for your nation when you're required to tithe 60% of your paltry income to the corrupt local warlords, or when your daughters are forced into the sex trade.

Burning the flag is PART OF WHY THIS NATION WAS FOUNDED. Or have you forgotten that we broke from the British?

Holy fucking crap, I feel like I'm yelling at a wall every damn day on greekchat.

Hey now.... it's not illegal to burn the Union Jack, nor any flag of the Commonwealth as far as I know....

The court will have no say. This is a constitutional amendment.

That's true. I realized that last night when I watched the news.

ha, I was being figurative, using 'burning the flag' as an example of 'active/collective action against the government'

Regardless, you're exactly right, and that's exactly the point - we were free to burn the Union Jack, and it was a good thing . . .

While I would never have the urge to burn the American flag, I have always felt that the right to symbolic speech does include and should lead with this country's flag burning. Kind of sounds hypocritical that this country's first amendment is a symbol of free speech, and then we throw up restrictions just for our symbols...

If congress wants to ban all flag burning, then maybe I'd be on board, but what if some foreign citizens hold a high degree of respect for another country's flag and see it burning on American soil, they would be criminalized for expressing their feelings and frustration on this country's flag.

It's a slippery slope and I don't see this Amendment ever passing the senate, no matter how conservative the media thinks they are.

Re: My 2¢
 

While I don't think it's considered disrespectful to burn an old flag -- which is what we were all taught to do -- I also don't think it's recommended these days.

I read somewhere that you should take an old flag to the VFW or American Leigon or like group and they will destroy it in a prescribed manner.

Speaking of respectful, I think we should be a little careful in this debate of how we address each other. Expressing our own feelings on this issue is part of our right to freedom of speech as well.

Re: Re: My 2¢
 

While this is true (in a slippery-slope sort of way), there's a difference between espousing your feelings and supporting a Constitutional amendment . . .

Re: Re: Re: My 2¢
 

I don't understand. Doesn't your right to free speech apply to both? What is the slippery slope?

Re: Re: Re: Re: My 2¢
 

Your right to free speech applies to both. However, the slippery slope comes in when it's your right to speak freely about limiting the rights of others. It's their right to speak of those matters, but supporting an amendment to the constitution to do the same does not merit the same necessary respect as speech.

Note that I use 'respect' in the sense of 'acknowledgement and deference to the fact that it's allowed', and not 'recognition of worth or value'

OK, I think I understand your thoughts.

I thought we might be heading down the "America, Love It Or Leave It" path, which has always been very discouraging to me.

I love it, but don't always agree with it.

Yes I can spell it "SPEECH", does that make You Happy O Tom Earp STALKER?

The total Idea is that Our Flag Of The United States of America is the same type of Symbol as The Bald Eagle. It is illegal to kill!

But, I would imagine that You and Bennie Franklin would like the National Bird Symbol to Be The Turkey!:D:)

Oh, please refrain from stalking Me and correcting My Typoes of Earp SpeaK,

Oh Yes, Freedom Of Speak is only good for those who feel it is their way only!


ACLU, would pick up on the Freedom of Speech as long as it will suite their Purpose. Would You as A New Legal Beagle want to present Yourself as One?:rolleyes:

Its illegal to kill because its an endangered species, not because its a symbol.

Thank you, beat me too it.

Funny that Earp calls me a stalker, because I had just called him the same thing in a different thread where he just randomly posted after me and started insulting me.

But it's not worth the effort to argue with someone who is so entirely ignorant on what he's talking about. Tom, get some education on the First Amendment then come talk to me.

I think this amendment (and some of those spouting off in this thread) are literal embodiments of the "LOVE IT URRRR LEAVE IT!" mentality, which is the 'get err done' of rational patriotic/constitutional argumentation. It's the most distasteful thing I can imagine, really, and in that we're totally in accord.

Excusim oui?

I asked a simple question and made a comment. Insulting you is a Home Securtity Situation. In your mind only.

Now, The American Bald Eagle is an Endangered Species and is the Symbol Of Our Country, and Freedom.

Oh, The American Bald Eagle Is not Endangered as a Species, It is Protected By Federal Mandate As Our National Symbol.

Well, if any feel that You can Kill Our Symbols - American Flag along with any other Symbols of
Our Country then why be Here?

"Freedom of Speech" only works for those that want it to be their way!

Now, Is that the way You want it to be?:rolleyes:

Real nit-picky, but I'm pretty sure the Bald Eagle in the lower 48 states is considered threatened, a step higher than endangered.

That happened a couple of years ago.

Semi-useless information gleaned from NPR.

Oh, We could be eating Bald Eagles in stead of Real Plump Turkeys?;)

Oh, I am a Patriot. That is All.:)

Oh Wrong, It is Not Legal Really To Kill, for one Reason, It is the National Bird! Check Your Stuff?:rolleyes:

Actually, that's not at all what I read in kddani's thoughts.

I may not agree with someone burning the flag, but I think it's completely out of line to have a law against it, to start throwing people in jail for doing it. If people choose to burn the flag as their means of protest, more power to them.

Thinking that flag-burners should be shot is just ridiculous. This amendment, if passed, approaches that ridiculousness.

If the amendment passes, I could still frolic around town in an American flag diaper, right? I mean, I probably will if the Amendment passes, just to let everyone know what a high level of complete ridiculousness such a thing would represent.

Have you moved out of Nederland?

That would look perfectly normal up there. Or maybe in Ward.

I think I'd pay to see it.

Assuming it's a real diaper with big safety pins and stuff.

if you want to ban flag burning, are you going to ban flag bikinis? I mean, I think it's more disrespectful of your country to wear your bikini wedgied into your nether regions. It's a slippery slope

Seriously. If it passes, does that mean that I can't wear a shirt/hat/uniform with the flag on it, since you're not supposed to wear the flag? (You're really not supposed to anyway, no matter what Old Navy prints every summer.) I probably wouldn't even be able to light a firework with a "Made in U.S.A." and a flag on it.

I wouldn't burn the flag in protest, but it's not my place to stop someone else from exercising that right. And thanks to the 1st Amendment, it's not the government's, either.


EDIT: CALLING GC LEGAL EAGLES

The US Flag Code is public law, as of 12/22/1942. According to Section 10:
Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.
Note that this is Section 10 in its entirety. The President is the only one given authority to change the Flag Code. Therefore, why is Congress bothering/how are they getting away with it?
My source is http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html#5

Re: Re: My 2¢
 

Believe it or not, our little town's AL or VFW do NOT accept flags for respectful disposal - I asked last year. I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't know what it is.

And I agree about respect - it's really easy to throw names around to make a point, but not always wise. There may be people whose opinions one don't agree with, but that IS the function of the Ignore feature!

I'm 60% drunk and won't be in the office until Tuesday (thanks patent litigation!), but I would all but guarantee that this section has two important limitations:

1 - 'rule or custom' is not equivalent to 'law'
2 - 'display of the flag' may or may not refer to how the flag is to be displayed by official government entities, and not necessarily the layman.

Also you raise a good point with regard to the involvement of Congress, but the reality is that the only way Congress can circumvent this sort of restriction is through the amendment process . . . which is what they're doing. So essentially they're superceding this policy.

Separation of powers and all that.