Why talk about hazing?
 

Doesn't anyone have anyting to talk about better then fraternities and sororities getting sespended or expelled. I thought greek life was supposed to be something great.

Alpha Delta Phi (Minnesota Chapter) held it's first (annual?) Blood Drive with the Amrican Red Cross. It went over very well and we did it without the help of IFC.

It doesn't go away by ignoring it. GreekChat as a whole has numerous forums that applaud the wonderful things that members of GLOs do. There are more posts about the positive things than there are in this forum. The truth is, MOST GLOs are doing the right things. The few that do the wrong things get a lot of attention from the media. Through our discussions, perhaps we can learn and prevent future occurrences.

Dee

Re: Why talk about hazing?
 

In a perfect Greek world, there would be no such thing as hazing. But we all know that there are a few idiotic assholes out there who continue to give us a bad name. Perhaps if these people quit being so stupid, then we wouldn't talk about it.

Where's the good in ignoring the fact that hazing does happen? I think it's important to be able to freely discuss this and by doing so, just like Dee said, we can prevent unfortunate situations from happening.

Well said. If we talk about it, perhaps we can prevent it.

Personally, I think the whole idea of hazing has been blown way out of proportion. According to stophazing.org, you can't do any type of activity in public with your pledges. Exercising? Nope, hazing. Playing a sport? Nope, hazing. Having a drink (even if you're over 21 and only those over 21 are drinking)? Nope, hazing. Sending you pledges and some actives on a scavenger hunt? Nope, hazing.

how do you figure? the website does not say that. those things could be considered hazing, such as: forcing/requiring/expecting pledges to exercise or do other physical activity or participate in a sport; having a drink? maybe drinking a gallon....

in order to determine if something is hazing, you have look at all activities and ask "what's the purpose?" and "could someone get hurt, emotionally or physically?" don't take it to the extreme side and say that everything can be hazing.

maybe it's different elsewhere... but my chapter got in trouble because we woke up early during our initiation week and exercised on our lawn. it wasn't even hardcore exercising, it was like push ups and sit ups and there was at least one active member per pledge exercising too.

when you have blanket terms like: "'Hazing' refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group (or to maintain full status in a group) that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate."

and: "Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution."

it's gone too far, if you ask me.

essentially, anything can be hazing, because anything can be viewed as "humiliating" or "disrespectful." all it takes is one anal S.O.B. to ruin a harmless activity (like exercising, or going on a road trip, or even *gasp* learning) and brand the participants as "hazers"

Until our new members stop getting injured or dying from activities they've been made to do by initiated members, we haven't gone far enough. However, voluntary participation in sports isn't going to be seen as hazing by any organization. If a chapter can show me how an activity relates to Alpha Gamma Delta's Purpose and it helps integrate the chapter (meaning that both new members and initiated members are participating), then it's going to be very difficult to call it hazing.

People are still dying, people are still being seriously injured. It has to stop or we will disappear as organizations. It's not that difficult to understand.

Dee

well part of the reason i'm so sour towards it is because we weren't hazing in any sense of the word, and it was kind of a bitch move by the person who reported us as hazing.

and it's also kind of annoying because there are other fraternities on campus that get away with so much more (especially the fraternities that hold high positions on the IFC Exec. Board), and we get in trouble for exercising. I understand hazing is a problem in some places, but our situation was B.S. My fraternity does not and will never haze, it goes against everything for which we stand.

if actives and new members were out there exercising together, i would probably not consider that hazing. i think one thing to keep in mind is what you quoted says "the following MAY be considered hazing." 'May' being the imperative word.

i agree there are groups out there getting away with a lot. problem is, those who can take action (greek advisor for example) often do not know that it is going on. if someone does not speak up, then how can it be stopped?

the phrase" your either part of the problem of part of the solution" definitely applies here. if those who think hazing is bad and goes against fraternity values (yours or someone else's), knows it goes on and doesn't say anything to stand up for those values, then that person is part of the problem. complaining that "no one does anything about it" gets one knowwhere and does not allow "no one" to be part of the solution. if that person knows about it and takes a stand, that person is now part of the solution.

i think that is why we talk about it so much. we want others to be part of the solution.

You will never convince me - and apparently the authorities either - that your pledges got up early and did pushups in the front yard - voluntarily. It is just not believeable.

As a frequent poster of hazing stories (easily found with a Google news search for "hazing" or "frat"), I hope that publicizing some of the serious cases will help eliminate hazing, and the horrible problems and horrible publicity it produces.

We can do a million public service projects, and collect a million cans of food for the needy, and dance forever for charity at Penn State, but one dead pledge at Chi Psi at Colorado (or at Chi Tau at Chico) trumps every good thing we do.

Maybe we can claim a little victory this school year, as I've seen no case of a GLO in trouble for "blackface". Did the widely publicized (on GC) cases two prior years get the word out? Probably.

On our campus some Greek organization go way to far, i mean their is a certain fraternity that puts their new guys in a thing of vinger with dip in their mouth. One of my old roommates came home covered in sand and bleeding. It is because of those people that messes things up for a lot of people. My friend from her sorority got in trouble for call a girl pledge. Another girl got in trouble for tell a girl to wear a damn ribbon. An organization got kicked off our campus because a guy who didn't get in and a active memeber report to their national HQ because the guy did not get initated.

because i'm nosy and want to know about the processes of organizations that aren't mine.

Why talk about hazing? Did you miss the title of the forum "Risk Management and Hazing"????? And from the number posts and stories in this forum, hazing still takes place. Sweeping things under the rug doesn't make them go away

See, here's where I think you've got to stop thinking, "As long as WE don't think it's hazing" and start thinking "Does this even look like hazing?" If I drove past a fraternity house and saw pledges and actives exercising on the front lawn early in the morning, I would automatically assume they were hazing. Why do it on the front lawn? That's weird. If you want to exercise together as a group, go to the gym. Doing freakin' situps in front of your frat house has a connotation that you're NOT going to be able to shake off, no matter how innocent you insist these activities are. Not to mention that the "equal # of brothers to pledges" thing is a cop-out. If both brothers and pledges are beating each other with paddles, that still doesn't make it appropriate.

I don't see much of a problem with the hazing definition. There are still plenty of WORTHWHILE activities you can do as an organization and as a new member class that are not hazing. You've just got to change your mindset, like GPB said, what's the PURPOSE of your activities?

That was kind of what I was thinking. If you want to see the other aspects of Greek Life, than go to the other forums and read about it............

Re: Why talk about hazing?
 

Is there something wrong with this picture?

It is after all a Risk Management Thread. :rolleyes:

Are there problems at Chapter levels, Yes. Unfortuneatly, it keeps happening.:mad:

So what do you profess?

Are you still listening or taking a cheep shot for a one time point?

As has been stated above, almost anything is hazing when it comes to not only Pledges, but Actives. Usually the rule of thumb is if Actives are doing it with Pledges, then it is not hazing.

But, as hoosier said, they just happened to get up with the Crow of a Rooster and do push ups?:confused:

It is Hazing to make Pledges do study time.

Whoa Nellie, what is the idea of college? Graduate. It is also grades that keep Actives current and Pledges become Initiates.


I want every New Possible Member to make His Grades to become a Brother, and while a Brother to Graduate.

I guess My idea is to simple!:rolleyes:

Treat your members as actual adults. It's not that hard.

For real.

Minnesota has a really nice gym. Not to mention the fact that you're going to get in much better shape at the rec than doing sit-ups on the front lawn. If the goal really is fitness, what's the point of jumping jacks on the frat house lawn? That's not going to get anyone in shape. So clearly the goal here isn't getting in shape -- so what is it?

Believe it. Everything our pledges do is voluntarily. We do not coerce or make them feel coerced to do anything that they would not feel comfortable with doing. Heck, when I was a pledge, I offered to rake the front yard. Once I started doing it, other pledges joined in... voluntarily. If you can't believe it, perhaps you've never been exposed to the caliber of people that Alpha Delta Phi prides itself on.

LMAO... you can't be serious. There are no words.

If you even bothered to read the thread, you'd see that the question is whether or not they were coerced, but whether or not it appears that they were coerced. One pledge in the front yard raking- not likely to be construed as hazing. 20 pledges doing situps in the front yard? Let's think about it. If you're not hazing, GRRRRRRRRRREAT. But put a little effort into the impression that you're giving, eh?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the high caliber of people that you think your fraternity attracts, dude.

PS. The word is "voluntary".

And that's where prejudice comes into play. Making a judgement without having all the facts. All FIVE of our pledges were having a great time; they were having fun. I guess no one saw the smiles on their faces or heard the laughter coming out of their mouths.

"'Hazing' refers to any activity expected of someone joining a group (or to maintain full status in a group) that humiliates, degrades or risks emotional and/or physical harm, regardless of the person's willingness to participate."

I know I feel humiliated, degraded and at risk of emotional and/or physical harm everytime I do a few jumping jacks and push ups. *sarcasm*

The point is, according to the above defenition of hazing (from stophazing.org), we weren't hazing. Our pledges did not feel as if they were being humiliated, degraded and/or at risk of emotional and/or physical harm. It didn't even look like hazing (do people smile, laugh and crack jokes while being hazed? I don't think so). But someone who didn't follow protocol, who gave into a prejudice, who didn't look at the whole picture, said "oh my gosh, they're hazing." The person who reported us for "hazing" didn't even do anything about it imediately, which (according to stophazing.org) would make them a "hazing enabler" and is just as "guilty" as we were.

When we went to our J-Board hearing, we said "Hey, we don't agree that we were hazing, even our pledges don't agree they were hazed, but we understand that you can't take even the slightest case of hazing lightly." So we offered a fair (IFC even agreed it was more than fair) punishment for ourselves and that we would attend a Hazing Education Class/Seminar just to go that extra step. IFC comended us for the matter in which we conducted ourselves, but unfortunately a week before this, IFC had passed a bylaw stating that probationary members (which we were, we were planning on applying for full membership this last spring) who plead guilty to any accusation (which we essentially did, even though we didn't agree with the accusastion that we were hazers) are automatically kicked out of IFC.

The person who reported us as hazing felt horrible about it. He said that he wished he hadn't done it. He had no intention of getting us kicked out of IFC, he just initially felt that what we were doing was hazing. He didn't look at the whole picture.

So in part, hazing is all about perception, and sometimes your perception can be wrong. Just make sure that if you think you see someone being haze (1) confront the situation right then and there and (2) make sure you're looking at the whole picture... (is there really a danger here? do people who aren't having a good time really laugh and smile that much?)

Don't jump to conclusions, and look at the whole picture.

EDIT: I guess what I'm really trying to say here is that this hazing policy is supposed to look out for the individual, but it has been turned into this focus on actions. And in my fraternity's case, someone saw just the action (as mild as it was), and didn't even look at the individual(s). It's a delicate balance between the two to be aware of that's important.

Why'd you say that? Voluntarily is a word and I'm pretty sure I used it in it's correct context... if not the first time, defenitely the second.

As in... John voluntrarily gave old Ms. Cranket a hand with her yardwork.

But, I mean, if your going to make cheap comments like that, I could say "P.S. the period goes inside the quotation mark." But it's silly, I understood what you meant.

Re: Why talk about hazing?
 

Why not? It's a reality that we have to face wether we like it or not. Hazing has cost us dearly over the years. Our insurances have skyrocketed, we have lost potential members that could've contributed greatly to our organizations, and due to hazing, many university were forced to close down the Greek system.

I don't understand how you don't see how someone could easily interpret exercising on the front lawn as hazing. When you're driving by a fraternity house, you probably don't take a close look at faces to see whether they are laughing or look humiliated. But it just looks ODD, smiling, laughing, whatever. You still haven't explained to me the purpose of doing this instead of going to the gym.

Anyway, I'm not saying that you were hazing. So any further information about the definition of hazing is really irrelevant.

It sucks that your fraternity was kicked out of IFC for not hazing. And I understand your point about prejudice. But you were called out by someone IN THE GREEK SYSTEM who thought you were hazing. What do you think the average non-Greek student thought when they saw your brothers doing push-ups in the yard? What about your professors? Parents of potential students checking out the school? The chancellor? You have to take responsibility for the way things APPEAR, not the way things really are. This is grossly unfair, but it comes with the territory, for all of us, of belonging to secret organizations with a reputation for hazing.

And voluntary was the correct choice for your first sentence... sorry, I tend to get picky.

As a member of the womens soccer team I was forced to wake up and go on a 5 mile run at 6 am....then go back and do push-ups and sit-ups and up-downs etc. Before going to class everyday. Trust me I didn' sign up for that.

I understand that being part of a greek organization we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard but why do I need to work out inside instead of outside with some of my sisters infront of my house on a nice day. Being on a sports team is different I understand but why do we have to be not just 5% or 10% more carefull but 100% and 200% more carefull for the people who are ignorant to what they see.

Actually, you did sign up for that. Remember when you JOINED the women's soccer team? Athletic practice is almost a guarantee for an athletic activity. It is a requirement for membership. Although I've only participated in one ritual, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Greek organizations do not have a similar athletic requirement to be a member :D

And you don't HAVE to be 100% or 200% more careful (although I'm confused as to why you chose those percentages, exactly), you just have to think like a non-Greek.

Maybe she means that she was forced to do this as some sort of initiation.

I guess it's just tradition, and we've always had fun doing it, so it was never second guessed. I remember when I was going through initiation myself, and we were out there and a cop drove by, and those with beers (a couple members, we don't allow pledges to drink during initiation) raised them to the cop and the cop just kind of smiled and waved. So I guess at best it completely depends on your perception... and each person's will be different.

But now, of course, we have to change things around. Even though we're not in IFC anymore, we're still following all their rules...

I'm not sure why I keep coming back to this thread and arguing with you. (And I think maybe I'm spending too much time on GreekChat because I always seem to be around when you post...)

OK so let's go back and review the facts. Your original statement:
Now you add in:
So if it's tradition, then it's not like the PLEDGES all of the sudden decided to get up early in the AM and exercise. This fantastic idea was obviously brought to the group by an older member who had done it in the past. What if the pledges had said, "No, actually, I don't really feel like getting up early and doing pushups in the yard in front of God and everybody?" Don't make it out to be some wonderful kind of voluntary activity when it becomes clear that this was an expected part of Initiation Week.

And you've also got guys drinking beer on the front lawn (but NOT the pledges, because heaven forbid they HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS BROTHERS). That sends a really nice message, don't you think? Particularly if this was early in the morning, as your "tradition" suggests. The fact that a cop didn't seem to be bothered by it doesn't really matter. To be honest, although a lot of states are dealing with hazing laws right now, it's not a matter that the police are going to deal with unless people are dying. What if someone's mom was driving by? Would you raise your beer up to wave hey to her? Like, "Oh hey, Mom, we're just sitting out in our front yard getting drunk and doing some sit-ups!"

You are hardly convincing anyone here that what you were doing was an innocent unity-building activity. Here's a shovel. Keep digging that hole, homey.

Can we define some terms here?

Forced = Initiates: "Pledges always do sit-ups on the front lawn. DO THEM!" (And, the pledges are afraid not to.)

Coerced = Initiates: "Pledges always do sit-ups on the front lawn." (And, the pledges are afraid to disappoint/afraid of repercussions.)

Voluntary = Pledges: "Hey, can we do sit-ups on the front lawn?" (Proper response: "No, that would not be wise as it may look like hazing.")

In my opinion, forced and coerced are equally bad, because the only right response is to do what you're told. They're both psychologically harmful.

I'm really applying this directly to the sit-ups situation, since people could get hurt doing this. What if one of the pledges were too afraid to come forward and say, "I have a serious heart condition," and he dies doing those sit-ups.

WOW, am I really Missing something here?:rolleyes:

This seems Like I did they will type mentality.

Now, if We as Greeks did this, the fit hits the shan!

Oh, I see, two different statuses here.:eek:

CarolinaCutie, Nay, You are not wrong, just aghast at the BS.:)

preciousjeni, True your above Post!:)

Hope I read these posts right before I Get Reamed! :rolleyes:

broomstick man, I love you, :D Your pledging sounds like what goes on at my campus. We have the "no harm, no foul" theory, it's worked for over 125 years so why not use it some more, eh? I ditto on the cops statement, hell, I and my lil sis had our pledges out one night on the far side of the campus when a cruiser came by. Once we told them we were on activity they laughed and said they wished they could stay. Then of course they told us to call the station in case we got hung up in the mud :D

CarolinaCutie - maybe the beer rule is because pledges normally come in underage anyway? A lot of GLO's here have that same rule, but then again, they also have the "no sex" rule also, heh.

Man, this post made me sound really bad :)

Yes, pledges normally come in underage- but I'd guess that even 21+ pledges aren't allowed to drink. And initiated members who aren't 21 yet? Allowed. And that is just not OK.

YOUR CHAPTER is different because you are a local organization. As long as you are not violating any state hazing laws (or not getting caught), you're free to do whatever you want. National organizations (of which Alpha Delta Phi is one) affiliated with NIC/NPC do not have those freedoms. We also have national standards to abide by. Obviously, broomstick's chapter wasn't thinking too clearly, and IFC no longer recognizes them as a result. It's fine to go by the "no harm, no foul" theory if you've got no one else to answer to.

If I saw a group exercising in their front yard and someone else watching while drinking a beer in my neighborhood, I'd be really weired out. Who the hell does that? Why on earth would you even think of doing that on a campus!?