a campus where greek life is forbidden
 

Does your greek organization operate on a campus where greek life is forbidden.

If so, what greek org. are you affiliated with? And how do you operate. Rush, Initiations, Meetings, Alumni, etc.

Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.





http://mxdke.org/alum/Alum%20Pages/history.html

OK, I'll bite....how can you have a Greek org on a campus where Greeks are forbidden? Are you saying the campus/administration aren't supportive? Or the school says no Greeks, but you are on campus anyway (allowed of course) and functioning as close to normal as possible?

Can you clarify?

Ehh, this might not be what you are looking for, but I'll take a stab. When all of the current groups at Otterbein were founded, Greek Life was outlawed. So instead of using greek letters, the groups were "clubs". Epsilon Kappa Tau was the Arbutus club (their flower), Tau Delta was Tomo Dachi Club (hint hint, look at the letters...), Lambda Gamma Epsilon was Kings (the hall they were founded in and the name they use the most). Kappa Phi Omega was the Onyx club (one of their colors and their jewel), Sigma Alpha Tau was the Owls Club (they still use an Owl lavalier more than their letters), Theta Nu was the Greenwhich Girls, t TEM was the Talisman, Pi Kappa Phi was Country Club, and Sigma Delta Phi combined with another org after WW2 to form Sigma Delta Phi (after almost being absorbed by Delta Sigma Phi, their original letter combination, which interfered with the national org).

They opperated as "societies" and "clubs" that served the same purposes and functions as sororities and fraternities, just without the letters. It wasn't breaking the rules, just bending them. Eventually the ban was lifted, and almost every group took letters. Mine was one of the last groups to "letter up" as it were. Every group has maintained a lot from their original founding. The nicknames are still used a lot (Kings, Sphinx, Country Club, etc.). The clubs grew so large and so influential on campus and in campus government that they forced the administration to recognize their presence and sanction their functions. Until then, recruitment had been done by private invitation by individual members, and then moved to a more open atmosphere.

UMass Lowell
 

UMass Lowell does not recognize Greek life after some sort of serious hazing incident years ago (don't know the exact history). They do have functioning greek chapters that are chartered by national organizations, however (there might be some locals as well...can't remember). From my knowledge, they cannot advertise on campus nor reserve campus space for their organization, so they use city facilities, houses, churches, etc.

PsychTau

Greek Life at Long Beach state is here but within the past year three house have been romoved. Our house TKE was kicked off campus for retard people who were romoved from our chapter, yet our national organization as a whole still respect our chapter and we still have a charter. Many people feel our campus is getting to the point were they are not going to allow greek life bc they have a great amount of rules

I origanally posted because I am a member of a dke chapter that is at a school where membership in a fraternity/sorority is grounds for expulsion. We operate like an underground secret society in many respects. Though, I must say, much of our prominence has been due to our mystique of secrecy we have held on campus. Currently we are chartered through the city where our college is located to bypass any legal issues with the college.

Since our chapter is still young, I hoped to start this post to see how other similar chapters operated.

Thanks for the input.

What feedback did you get from SGA, etc. when they decided not to recognize you as an organization? And are you addressing that feedback/concerns they had?

PsychTau

There are two universitites here that does not allow greek organizations on campus, but I do know 2 students that attend there who are greek - both made through city-wide undergraduate chapters.

Deke4life -- By saying that you are "at a school where membership in a fraternity/sorority is grounds for expulsion," you seem to be describing a true underground chapter rather than just a chapter that is operating without SGA or IFC recognition. I am assuming you have to maintain some degree of secrecy regarding your membership so as to avoid disciplinary action by the school administration?

Unfortunately for you as you seek to find out how similar chapters operate, I doubt you'll find many similar chapters. It is not uncommon for chapters to operate openly without university approval. But true underground, or sub rosa, chapters, which were very common once upon a time, are not so common any more.

I could be quite wrong, but my observation has led me to believe that your fraternity has as much, if not more, experience with sub rosa chapters as anyone these days. I seem to recall one or two sub rosa Deke chapters in New England in the last decade or so.

In any event, good luck!

To answer your questions:

We are chartered through the city as an official organization of the Chamber. By doing this we "somewhat legally" claim to not be a college organization therefore removing us from threat of expulsion under their rules (its hard to regulate organizations chartered outside of the college). Although, the college still comes after us frequently.

Of course, we did all of this only after being denied by the student senate (even our guys strategically voted no) and administration, but nothing was going to stop us from going underground. DKE Headquarters knew of our unique situation from the begining and has been more than supportive. And of course, the mystique of secrecy has merely perpetuated our prominence and the bonds within our chapter.

And as we are such a young chapter (only 4 years old) I am curious to see how other chapters have progressed, hence this post.

Thanks again for your info.

I don't see how chartering through the city removes the threat of expulsion. If anything it confirms that you are operating and if the school really wanted to they probably would go after you.

I think the threat of expulsion is just a bluff. My school makes the same threats to every organization that operates underground but they have never done anything. According to everything I have read, I dont think the school can do anything to you just for operating unless you are at a private school.

Is your school public or private?

Our school is Private. And, of course, that is what many of those in administration(not all participate in the witch-hunt though) use as an argument that they still have some control over us.

Because it makes them technically not a college organization. Theoretically anyone could find them through the Chamber of Commerce and ask to join (but this probably won't happen).

If you are at a private school then I think the school can do whatever they want.

I read an article but I cant find it. It was about a DKE lawsuit vs a private school( Bowdoin I think) and the judge ruled that a private school could prohibit fraternities but a public school could not.

Our argument is that the College cant expell us for being an organization that is in "no way affiliated with the school." As far as any one else knows (non dekes) we meet off campus, we initiate off campus, we do everything off campus and we want nothing to do with the college. Officially that is>

Admitedly though, our argument is not perfect, although good enough.

Theoretically we could consider candidates for admission outside of our college (which we also use in our argument), but somehow I dont see that hapening.

Expelling us would be like expelling someone for being a Mason.

Deke4life, check your user control panel -- I pm'ed you.

I think it just depends on the type of school and its viewpoint as to whether or not they can expel students from joining a group outside of the campus. I know at some very strict religious schools (Bob Jones University comes to mind) you most certainly could be expelled. At a small, Eastern, liberal arts school, I would find it less likely.

Amherst College threw its fraternities off in the 70's, after the school went co-ed- and repossessed the houses, which are now all dorms. There are still a few chapters operating there (I know of 2, but there may be one more- I think one of them is DKE), but they're strictly under the table- they can't advertise on campus, or use facilities, or wear letters. And they do get a fair number of guys attracted by the secret society aspect of it.

Private schools don't have to recognize Greeks, because they don't have to recognize any group they don't want to- freedom of assembly doesn't apply. When you agree to go there, you agree to follow the school's rules. I suppose from a theoretical legal standpoint, they could expel you for being a Greek, or a Mason, or whatever- the only thing they can't do is discriminate on race, religion, ethnicity, or national origin. Fraternal organizations aren't any of those.

(btw- saying Masons or Shriners is a bit redundant, since all Shriners are Masons. :-p)

Right now, College rules stipulate that "membership in any any selective membership organization operating inside the college community is grounds for expulsion." The "powers that be" could not convince their lawyer to extend this language beyond the borders of campus, because such a broad assertion would affect many other students, staff, and faculty (Many of whom are members of fraternal organizations chartered elsewhere).
Essentially because of the impact of the civil rights legislation of 64 and 68 the college has to treat everyone the same under their rules. They could make the rules more specific to include just dekes, but so far they have maintained they would not do that in the name of equity. Plus, doing that would merely make them look more like the bad guy.... and campus opinion is clearly behind freedom of association on this issue, even among most faculty and staff.

Interesting, but is the School State or Federally Funded?

There is a difference in Funded or non funded colleges.

I am wondering, if Greeks are told to be off campus, what about some of the other Organizations?

Not being treated equally happens to be agains many rules and regulations.

If that is the exact wording, I find it very interesting that your college has a Cheerleading squad which has tryouts and only accepts 12 members. This seems to me that it is a selective organization. I think an attorney could have fun with that rule!

Dee, Just Love Your Post!!!!!:)

Guess that should make some folx wonder!;) Just what I was thinking, thanks for putting in the proper WORDING!:cool:

The school has some federal funding, but legally enjoys private status.

Also, organizations like the cheerleaders (as mentioned above) and especially ODK are questionable at best under these rules. Although, the College later defines the banned organizations as being "social fraternities and sororities or other similar selective membership organizations." So while they specifically go after social fraternities and sororities, they leave at least some wiggle room for other selective membership organizations.... Of course... all in the name of equity and inclusion, lol.

Hm, cannot come up with the Specific wording I want to use.:rolleyes:

Thinking, Thinking, Ah Is Bias a good word?

Key might be some Federal Funding. $$!

Thought Shalt not make a bias opinion against Race, Creed, or Color. Hm, just pondering the situation!

What does one Institution call it when a Specific Group is not aloud upon a Campus?:rolleyes:

i know exactly where youre coming from. i attend a college that banned social service fraternities in the eaerly 90's due to the death of a student, and hazing was in question. The college does recognize however academic and music fraternities, so it kinda sucks. currently i believe the frats are Phi Kappa Sigma and Pi Lambda Chi (before they were banned the college ruled no nationals, so many became local back in the 70s, somehow PhiKapp was allowed to stay national). the sorors are Gamma Delta Pi and Phi Zeta Kappa. Supposedly, though i have seen no evidence of its existence, Phi Beta Sigma is also on campus. I know that Delta Kappa has died out. There is also the Pi Lambda Chi Little Sisters, of which i'm a sister. In many ways we're more of a sorority than our frat brothers are a fraternity. Anyways thats off topic. Everyone holds meetings, rush, etc. as if we were on campus, but we have to be very careful with flyering because we can be judicially referred for soliciting. idk, its complicated, and it stinks but hey, i'll take it, being the daughter of an AOII and a SigPi i'll take any greek life i can get, since we can't rush at the university on the other hill. but i love it and i love my sisters and brothers.

When I attended Furman University (Greenville, SC), they had a strange not-GLO policy. Furman at the time was associated with the Southern Baptist.

All the Fraternities & Sororities were not allowed to be associated with any National body. They were all locals that took on the names of National groups (and AFAIK, modeled themsevles on that particular body). I had heard that one had, and lost their official status as far as the shool was concerned. All the groups took 'real names' to 'hide' their greek names. So TKE was "The Knights Eternal", and so on. They would wear greek letter shirts, etc.

I understand that since then, its changed, probably due to the school disassociated itself from the Southern Baptists.

Re: Bowdoin
 

The school's approach was to claim that our DKE chapter was a "defacto official college organization" because criteria for membership would supposedly include enrollment at Maryville College. Thus our status became "prohibited organization" with the threat of expulsion. Of course, if you read other previous posts, you will understand how we are still able to exist (in part by chartering through the city).

We are talking about private schools. Private schools can limit their students' behavior in countless ways that would be unconstitutional in a public school (for example, requiring students to attend Chapel).

Private or no, I think they have to use the federal constituion if they get federal money

But, if private schools recieve any federal funding they have to follow certain rules. Now they can get around that. Such is the case at Grove City College in PA, they refuse any federal funding even stafford loans and pell grants, they won't take state funds either. They had problems with the feds before and some of their rules so they decided to pull the old "we don't take your money we don't have to follow your rules" approach.

I know my chapter is in a similar situation right now, although at a public school. We lost university recognition becuase they hate greek life, but, national still supports us 100%, there are threats but, if you can prove it is a community organization or find other forms of umbrellaing yourself it makes a stronger case.

I believe it is for exactly that reason that some private schools avoid taking federal money.

So?

Frankly, the rights of college students haven't always been observed by universities. There is a general attitude by most colleges of 'in parentis locale' (sorry if I mangled that latin), which means that the college/universities acts as if they are the student's parents in their absense. This is the basis of many school policies that have existed for decades ('you must do X because we say so, because its for your own good', etc) There have been issues with students right of free speech being recognized, issues of assembly, etc.

Thus, many schools will do stuff like approve/disapprove college organizations, and take action against those they don't want. This can include not allowing any GLOs, etc. This topic has been a subject thread in the past. I've been told by some students of issues with them trying to establish a chapter of my GLO, and being blocked by either other students (student body must approve new clubs/orgs) or the admin because they don't see the need for 'one more service group'.

Take a look at the past when, say, freshman were FORCED to wear certain types of clothing (beanies, etc). One school I know of had a mandatory sophomore organization whose only purpose for existing was to make sure these sort of traditions were followed by the freshman!

A lot of this sort of stuff has changed in the last few decades, but a lot of it still remains.

This is what has lead to things like 'unions' for graduate student to protect themselves, etc. Its as if the civil rights movement hasn't fully sunk in in the college world.

If by "use" the federal constitution you mean that private educational institutions cannot restrict the rights guaranteed by the Constitution (such as the right of free association), then that would be a big "nope."

The Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, is the document that establishes the federal government and its powers and limitations, that defines the relationships between the states and the federal government, and that in some instances defines the relationship of private citizens to the government. Various amendments, both in the Bill of Rights and elsewhere, protect individual rights from governmental -- state or federal -- interference, but those constitutional provisions simply do not apply to private institutions.

With regard to the right to freely associate, the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no laws . . . abriding the freedom of speech . . . or the right of the people to peaceably assemble . . . " (The right of free association is based on these clauses, and the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the states, including states-sponsored colleges, from infringing on the rights guaranteed in the First Amendment.) Congress can make laws prohibiting private institutions from violating civil rights, but private colleges are not prevented by the Constitution from prohibiting certain organizations on campus. One simply cannot claim that a private instutution has violated one's constitutional rights.

As far as receiving federal money goes, federal money cannot be used in an unconstitutional way, but that does not make the recipient of the federal money generally subject to the constitutional restrictions placed on government. The more common situation is that Congress attaches strings to the receipt of federal money -- if you want federal money, then you have to comply with those conditions. Private institutions choose not to receive federal funds so as not to have to deal with the conditions established by Congress.

But the Constitution only deals with the relationship between government and the governed, and between the federal and state governments.

MysticCat got this exactly right.

Unless Congress decides to pass a law requiring schools that accept federal money to allow national Greek life, how the school is funded doesn't enter into the question. If you don't like the rules your private school imposes, you have a Constitutional right to go elsewhere.

IvySpice: Congress has made rules about federal funding and what must be done if private institutions accept it. Such as they must follow certain constitutional requirements; freedom of speech, assembly, association. They just don't have to follow them as much as public institutions. The ball is in the institution's court if they want to recieve or decline federal funding. Either they want to play by the rules or they don't want the money that badly.

But that doesn't mean that the Constitution applies to private institutions; it means that Congress has, by statute, (or a federal department has, by regulation) put conditions on the receipt of federal funds. If it accepts the funds, the institution also accepts the conditions. It's a matter of contract. In exchange for federal funds, the instutition agrees to do/not do certain things. (And I certainly stand to be corrected, but I think IvySpice is right -- Congress has in no way mandated that private institutions that receive federal funds must, as a condition of receiving those funds, allow Greek life.)

The Constitution itself still doesn't apply, though. If someone wants to challenge what a private institution is doing based on receipt of federal funds, then they have to make a claim that the institution is violating the conditions of receiving the federal funds, and the institution may have to forfeit or pay back the federal funds for not complying with the conditions it accepted when it took the federal funds.

But no one can claim that the private institution violated their constitutional rights.

They don't have to allow Greek life, but they cannot prevent the students from forming Greek groups on their own without college recognition, or discipline them for doing so, which is what Bowdoin and some other schools tried to do.

"Federal funds" also applies to any federally affiliated scholarships.

Not so. To point out just one of many examples: if this were true, how could it be that BYU receives federal financial aid funding (http://saas-dev.byu.edu/depts/finaid/oview.aspx?lms=4) and yet requires its students to conform to a very strict code of sexual conduct (http://honorcode.byu.edu/Honor_Code_...tuous_Life.htm), even though viewing pornography (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...croft2004.html) and homosexual activity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas) are constitutionally protected rights under the First and Fourteenth Amendments, respectively?

Of course they can. What federal law would prevent it? The GOVERNMENT did not stop Bowdoin from punishing its students. It was an issue of alumni support and public relations. That has nothing to do with Congress, the Constitution, etc.

Actually, this is the most relevant law passed concerning this issue (Sponsored by a deke):




Freedom of Speech and Association on Campus Act of 1997

HR 980 IH

105th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 980
To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to protect the speech and association rights of students attending institutions of higher education.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

March 6, 1997
Mr. LIVINGSTON (for himself, Mr. LAHOOD, Mr. MICA, Mr. TIAHRT, and Mr. SENSENBRENNER)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A BILL
To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to protect the speech and association rights of students attending institutions of higher education.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Freedom of Speech and Association on Campus Act of 1997'.

SEC. 2. PROTECTION OF STUDENT SPEECH AND ASSOCIATION RIGHTS.

Title XII of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 1141 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following new section:

`SEC. 1214. PROTECTION OF STUDENT SPEECH AND ASSOCIATION RIGHTS.

`(a) PROTECTION OF RIGHTS- No student attending an institution of higher education on a full- or part-time basis shall, on the basis of protected speech and association, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination or official sanction under any education program, activity, or division directly or indirectly receiving financial assistance under this Act, whether or not such program, activity, or division is sponsored or officially sanctioned by the institution.

`(b) SANCTION-

`(1) IN GENERAL- No funds shall be made available under this Act to any institution of higher education that the Secretary finds, after notice and opportunity for a hearing, has violated subsection (a) of this section.

`(2) INAPPLICABILITY TO STUDENT ASSISTANCE- Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any funds that are provided under this Act for student financial assistance.

`(c) EXCEPTION- This section shall not apply to an institution of higher education that is controlled by a religious or military organization, if the speech or association is not consistent with the religious tenets or military training of the institution.

`(d) SANCTIONS FOR DISRUPTION PERMITTED- Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent the imposition of an official sanction on a student that has willfully participated in the disruption or attempted disruption of a lecture, class, speech, presentation, or performance made or scheduled to be made under the auspices of the institution of higher education.

`(e) DEFINITIONS-

`(1) INSTITUTION OF HIGHER EDUCATION- The term `institution of higher education' has the meaning given in section 1201(a).

`(2) PROTECTED SPEECH- The term `protected speech' means speech that is protected under the 1st and 14th amendments to the United States Constitution, or would be so protected if the institution of higher education were subjected to those amendments.

`(3) PROTECTED ASSOCIATION- The term `protected association' means the right to join, assemble, and reside with others that is protected under the 1st and 14th amendments to the United States Constitution, or would be protected if the institution of higher education were subject to those amendments.

`(4) OFFICIAL SANCTION- The term `official sanction'--

`(A) means expulsion, suspension, probation, censure, condemnation, reprimand, or any other disciplinary, coercive, or adverse action taken by an institution of higher education or administrative unit of the institution; and

`(B) includes an oral or written warning made by an official of an institution of higher education acting in the official capacity of the official.'.