When will a fraternity die
 

I have just read the article about a Sigma Chi being hurt jumping into a wading pool.
Everybody will be sued for this negligent behavior.
I've read so many posts like this I now must ask when will the first national go under due to an accident or death, when will insurance be so expensive that chapters go local or can't recruit ,when will a national file for chapter 11 reorganization?
I see it coming by 2010 if this behavior doesn't change.

Re: When will a fraternity die
 

Haven't heard of this. Would you please provide a link to the article. Or at least provide some details such as when and where this happened.

Thanks.

Re: When will a fraternity die
 

Unfortunately, you're not the first to ask the question. More unfortunately, it may take one of these things to wake everyone else up.

Re: Re: When will a fraternity die
 

Please see the May 24 Daily Barometer student paper of Oregon State U. A 20-year-old (i.e., underage) young man dived headfirst into a makeshift pool with about 17 inches of water in it. He's in critical condition -- fractured vertrebra and possibly spinal cord injury. There allegedly was drinking involved. The "pool" reportedly was for a party.

http://barometer.orst.edu/vnews/disp.../429353a64dbac

You can get other reports by going to Google News and typing in something like

oregon fraternity critical

or something along that line.

When I saw the news this morning, I thought pretty much what g41965 mentioned: there's the potential for a lawsuit here. Of course, right now I'm just hoping for the best possible medical outcome for the young man.

Edited to add the address for another story from station KATU:

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=77356

Also edited to remove the implication that the injured man was a member of the fraternity.

Re: Re: Re: When will a fraternity die
 

First off, my thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Manning and his family.

Second, thank you exlurker for the link. I did a Google search and it didn't produce anything current and/or specific to this topic.


Now to address the original post, this may be important to note from the article.

So even with the proper risk management checklist completed, this gentleman was at this party. And as such, his actions may have put this chapter at risk. Thus simple compliance may not be enough. It seems like more adherence to the rules are needed to insure these unfortunate - and potential life threatening events - do not happen. Otherwise, the alternative may not be that good.

We shall see.

I luv the Sigma Chis, but they sure seem to get more than their share of bad risk management incidents and lawsuits.

Of course, being known as one of the biggest and richest GLOs attracts stuff too.

Next year, probably some other GLO with get the excess attention.

Many and big lawsuits eventually put the KKK out of business, but they never had the assets of a major GLO with 180 chapters.

Who in their right mind wouldn't?

I agree. While not dismissing the risk management issues of Sigma Chi, these incidents may just be the tip of the proverbial iceberg for all GLOs. Sigma Chi IHQ has been diligent (good?) - for the most part - about being up front with risk management issues. And for better or worse, they get more publicity.

Stepping forward now, and addressing these issues in a more public light, may very well benefit the Brotherhood down the line.

Let us hope and pray there are fewer and fewer incidents across the GLO spectrum.

True. Yet an importance difference is that the KKK is inherently evil while GLOs are not. Regardless of what some may think.

I know this is off topic, but the KKK is out of business? when did that happen? I am, of course, against this type of organization, but i do find it hard to beleive that those people invovled with the KKK would let money get in the way of their organization.

The KKK is definitely still around. They have rallies and try to recruit openly around here. They had a rally here in huntington a few years ago. It was not welcomed by the town, but they still do exist.

Re: Re: Re: When will a fraternity die
 

This story sounds familiar...didn't something like this happen within the past year or two? I swear I remember us discussing a story regarding someone who dove into a shallow pool dug into the backyard of a fraternity for a party theme....

And yes, the KKK is still alive and functioning in various places. They are around in Arkansas (where they were either founded or where the "home base" is in Harrison...can't remember for sure, but I know the Ozarks are full of 'em).

PsychTau

The KKK, if I recall, was broken up as a national org by the federal government. They still have local "chapters" but not an official national governing body.

As far as a national GLO getting shut down in 2010 - we'll be lucky if it takes that long.

Two years ago, a well-respected national GLO came very close to having shut down due to liability lawsuits (I won't say which one, but it's one of the biggies), as well as a BGLO came close as well a year or so ago.

I would not be surprised to see one shut down by 2007 at the latest.

I would agree with LXAAlum. I think we will unfortunately see the demise of one (or more?) national fraternity within a few years.

One multi-million dollar judgement against a fraternity is all it would take. It's not hard to imagine a risk management situation that could initiate such a lawsuit. Could a national fraternity survive such a disaster? I'm not so sure. Several national fraternities have great financial resources. On the other hand, many do not.

While all fraternities have liability insurance, its only going to protect them to a point. What if a national fraternity were to lose or have it's liability insurance canceled? Should this happen the national may not be able to operate, effectively shutting down day to day operations. This scenario could prove to be just as deadly to a national as a huge judgment against it.

Is Great Lakes a 'nat'l' party that Sig Chi has? I thought it was local to our campus...could be a coincidence.

I feel horrible for that young man, his family and his chapter. The reality is that no one was egging him on and there is slightly unclear information about if he was drinking. While it does sound like he was, it doesn't sound like it was a fraternity wide sponsored event. I think we need to remember that people being stupid will never change. He probably helped build the pool, he had to have known at some (sober) level that it was way too shallow to dive into. However, (and I'm not call him stupid, but the diving intot he pool) at some point this society has to say that your bad judegement does not make me liable.
/soapbox

Ditto to LXAAlum.

A past COO told me that most Nationals were problematic when it came to Funds as Risk Insurance will keep going higher when many stupid things are done and law suits are filed. Remember whether one wins or loses, there is still a large outlay of money for legal fees.

He also stated that there could be mergers among Nationals for preservation sake. Before turning noses up about this, just take time to think about how stable your own organization is.

Active dues are a monetary input, but not near enough to pay for Staff, IHQs, Regional and National meetings, publications, etc.

Alum donations are a major part of the picture for sure so please give if possible.

Not meaning to preach, but I have gotten so much out of LXA, the Brothers from Chapter and all over, plus being able to meet people such as the GCers which mean a lot.

The May 25 student paper has an update with statements from one of the young man's friends. The friend was reportedly also at the event.

http://barometer.orst.edu/vnews/disp.../42949b689ae0d

Swell, He was not on the invited list. Damn, Damn.

Just happened to stop by as had friends there. Came by to see them and all shit breaks loose.

The main problem seems to be, the party was supposedly over, some friend comes by and gets tramaticly hurt.

But, it comes down to Greek Organizations.

So, even though there are security items in place, it is not scripted. Things like these can happen when there is no or some control.

If I lived in the House and I invited a friend over, He trips and falls down the stairs, I am at fault for inviting Him over. The Chapter and Fraternity is at fault.

High, I am A Greek, I am under a Legal Microscope, for actions of one kind only not the others where Money, Time, and Energy are given to Many Charitys.

So, Just Why Do I want to continue to want to be a Greek?

As Otter said, "Is This Not a Total Indictment of The Total Greek System"?

I am going to second this one. Who thinks it is right to dive in a shallow pool?

I heard the same thing from our international officers at our last regional conferences. We have to remember that not all "National" organizations have 100+ chapters. A lot of them have 50 or less. They will have to merge to stay alive. They do not have the alumni support as some of us do. While looking at some of the NIC national organizations, some of them do not have travelling consultants or risk management procedures. It's really sad.

NebraskaDelt


Thanks for the confirmatin, but it seems to be a reality.:(

None of us want to Change, but Reality may be the Key.:(

Unless, the Active Chapters want to Change and Fly Right, then It may become a Fact!

I dont want to see ATO, DKE, SX, ETC have to go this way, it may be the Future!:(

YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED!!! As a lifeguard for almost 5 years now, I have seen completely sober adults dive headfirst into 3 ft of water and act SURPRISED! when I insist that they don't do it. "I've always done it". NO! That' s not an excuse! And when kids see older people doing it, they assume they can do it, which is not the case. Grrrr... </lifeguard soapbox>

Seriously. I think people + pool= immediate stupidity...and it multiplies with the more people who are in a group.

I lifeguarded too. I wouldn't let anyone dive in less than 4 ft. 2 ft is a kiddie pool!

lifeguard here too....i even swam competitively and learned to dive in shallow water (as low as 3 ft). i still argue with people because they think they used to do it, so they should be allowed to know. then there are the parents who get upset bc you won't let their kids jump in the shallow water. and you know they would be the first to sue if thier kid got hurt.

as far as this situation...it sucks that this group will probably be held accountable for something bc they did not strictly follow thier guest list.

Actually, it's even worse than that.

We've had this discussion before, but it's been a while, so it may be time to remember that there are a number of fraternities who basically are uninsurable. Many of those have banded together to fund their own insurance for those fraternities -- having the plan administered by a professional group.

If that plan were ever to become unsolvent because of large judgements against its members, all of the groups in the consortium could be in serious trouble.

As for this particular case, even though the injured party was not on the guest list, the pool aparently was on chapter property and the group will almost certainly be liable. I may not invite people to walk on my sidewalk, but if someone slips on the ice, I get sued.

MAD!
 

All the article (the last link posted) constantly and REPETITIVELY debates is whether or not he was an invitied guest which is besides the point. The party was OFFICIALLY OVER therefore I would say the guest list is null and void because it was no longer applicable to whatever was occuring at the house.

Hopefully the fraternity will eventually no longer be harrassed because we can not control the individuals actions regardless of whether or not he was invited/uninvited to the house. Also, I hope it wasn't something I overlooked but as far as I know there was no mention of providing him with the actual alcohol that caused him to be drunk and since he was allegedly not alone, any of his friends accompanying him should have taken closer care of their intoxicated friend.

There was no official mention of a lawsuit, but I'm guessing that the best and most preventative thing a house can do is escort, or have a friend of someone who is undesired (and/or drunk) and present in the house, escort him or her elsewhere to be intoxicated or reckless. (Provided that they are not drunk off the fraternity's alcohol because it WILL get traced back to them)
And not provide or allow for the consumption of alcoholic beverages by those who are underage or known for reckless behavior.

Of course this would keep them on their toes all the time, babysitting everyone that walked in and out of their house and is a great deal of work; but unless they avoided gatherings on the premises period, there would be no other way. People gravitate to fraternity houses and parties for a good time and I have WITNESSED non-members take advantage of not only their hospitality, but their alcohol availability as well. ALL at the expense of the fraternity and frankly, it makes me ILL.

Re: MAD!
 

Actually whether he was a guest or not is BIG deal legally and liability wise. There's a big difference between a guest and a trespasser

Re: Re: MAD!
 

That makes perfect sense to me, but we've all seen stories where a burglar or robber has tripped over something in the place he/she is ripping off, gets hurt, sues and wins!

Don't you think that the fact that these guys had this "unsafe" swimming pool at their house is going to make them liable no matter what the other circumstances are?

Re: Re: Re: MAD!
 

As always it depends on how good of a lawyer they have ;) And the law of the state and how it's been interpreted

I've actually never seen a story where a burglar trips over something, sues, and wins. And never saw any of that in torts class. The only time i've seen a burglar sue successfully is in the case of a spring gun/trap gun (someone sets up a gun to shoot anyone that comes through the door while they're away).

Got any links to any?

Re: MAD!
 

These stories make me sad and frustrated.

About the pool thing, I loved Great Lakes (course it was always too cold to go IN) but it is a liability waiting to happen. A body of open water w/out a fence in someone's front yard? Negligant suburban parents have probably been sued for less...

Re: Re: Re: Re: MAD!
 

No. Wish I did. These things generally come over the news wires for use as "kickers" (Final humorous story on newscast) because of their apparent stupidity.

It's usually a situation where some jury makes a decision that is totally off the wall.

More to the point might be my other comment about someone slipping on my sidewalk.

ETA I remember a case within the past couple of years where a woman sued a (jewelry, I think) store because she tripped over a child and broke her ankle or leg or something while she was shopping in the store.

She won the case.

The kicker in this case is that it was HER child she tripped over.

A little closer to the situation at hand, that's a reason a lot of people won't have swimming pools in their yards. If someone sneaks over the 9 ft. high fence topped with concertina wire and drowns in their pool, they'll probably get sued.

These aren't the best examples, but they are kinda funny


http://www.overlawyered.com/archives/00nov3.html

November 21 -- Burglar sues for compensation. In Australia, "[a] man who broke into a house and attacked the home owner when he was discovered has launched a civil action against his victim for compensation." Shane Colburn says he is still suffering "physically and emotionally" from the aftermath of the 1997 incident, in which he scuffled with Peter Vucetic and Giavanna Grah and was attacked by the couple's dogs. ("The thief who sued his victim", Daily Telegraph (NSW, Australia), Nov. 17).




http://www.wellsinsagency.com/articl...t_yourself.htm

BURGLAR SUES HOMEOWNER

Terrence Dickson of Bristol, PA finished burglarizing a house and left through the garage. The door to the house locked behind him and the automatic door opener in the garage wasn’t working so he was stuck. The family was on vacation and Dickson was trapped in the garage for 8 days. He lived on dog food and Pepsi (and you thought it wasn’t good for you!). When he got out, he sued the homeowner for mental anguish. A jury awarded him $500,000.

Lol, well the first was Australia so who knows what their law is. Or if it's real.

The second example is urban legand as well... a shame an insurance company put that on their website! No credible news sources cite it either.

I'm not saying its credible, but it sure is funny. :)

There were credible ones about burglar's suing after getting shot, still funny :)

i think DeltAlum has it right.....if the person is on your property and is injured because you had something hazardous on your property, you can get sued. this would go beyond the arguement of "the party was over" since it was at the chapter house.

I don't get the ice thing b/c i live in texas and it snowed here in december for the first time in 10 years, but i think that is really odd. I know people should make an effort to get it off the sidewalk, but you can't monitor it 24/7.

and people in CA have sued b/c they broke into someone's house and were shot or otherwise injured while in the process. if you get hurt while committing a crime, too bad! may be some exceptions, but not many. another reason i love being in texas!

<<back to real topic>> i doubt it will matter if the party is over.

KDDanni, I don't think Westlaw has copies of trial court documents which is where these types of cases usually end. You would be able to find them if they went up the appeals route.

It's sad, but there are a lot of lawyers who don't have any ethics and will run with such a case. It's really sad and why we have a bad rep.

In my opinion, in this case, there would be no comment on whether this guy was trespassing...it was a party with a kiddie pool. From my experience in undergrad, us testosterone frat guys would go wild if someone was at OUR party who wasn't supposed to be. We got rid of him in an instant. Usually parties are free for alls unless the risk management tactics are put in place (ie: security guard, id checker, etc). If anything, there would be contributory negligence on the part of the injured party goer (and depending on state law) the jury decides which amount he would be liable and base the judgement within those perameters.

GPB, the reason they sued is because most state law says you can't use excessive force when someone breaks into your home. (Texas, of course, may be a totally different story, but in liberal California, you can only protect yourself using grass.) This goes back to what Kddani was talking about concerning the spearguns or whatever (it has been a long time since 1L torts). The homeowner lost because the defense used was extra-ordinary. If the robber had a gun, it would be a different story. If the robber had a knife, a gun in defense is arguable, but you could use a knife.

Enough legal talk, it's giving me a headache. Wow, I better get back to work at the law firm...

Yep, no kidding, I know that. Something incredibly stupid like that would certainly be appealed by the insurance company, no insurance company would want to set that precedent.
Also google didn't reveal a single reputable source confirming either story, in fact, it revealed multiple sites that said they were hoaxes. There are plenty of lawyers who would try, but there doesn't seem to be many that suceed.

A citizen can use NONdeadly force in protecting their property, but no one can use deadly force to protect their property unless their life (or their family's) is in danger.

Yay for Professor Whitebread's Crim Law lecture yesterday, the law regarding trap guns is fresh in my head

back to studying, and back to the discussion of the thread b/c the fraternity certainly didn't set up a trap gun to go off at trespassers, lol

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MAD!
 

My parents insurance like quadrupled when they installed a pool. They put in chain link fence around the entire backyard (nearly an acre), put locks on all three gates, and the "No Trespassing" signs. Still, if someone were to get hurt, they know full well that none of those precautions will prevent a suit.

We had to put up Beware of Dogs signs on our fence because our dogs are around 50lbs. Those are considered "dangerous" so we had to have the signs. One is an Aussie Shepard mix (if you have food, he couldn't care less what you steal) and the other is a choc lab mix (hello - can I be your bestest friend?) - yeah, dangerous for sure :D

What a crazy world!!

Trip weapons are illegal in most States if not all. Prime example:

Nebraska, an escaped convict broke into an old farm house with a Trip Shot gun from having been broken into so many times, He was injured from the shotgun blast. The Convict won and the Farmer went to jail.:o

:mad:

If there is a law that says a private citizen cannot protect themselves from and intruder who breaks in, I would love to read it.

Of course the Liberl Heart Bleeding Leagals want to make everything legal to do! So, screw the Citizinary.:( :rolleyes:

Lawerence, Ks. Judgette, gives Child Molestor a slap on the hand.

Wow I am impressed by this person or not!

All Judges should be voted on. They should have terms like anyother elected Official! They are not omnipresent.

A judge in KC, Ks. told Pickets in front of His home He would find them in Contempt if they did not leave.

Legal Abuse at its best.