Kansas and Immigrant Tuition Rates
 

We've moved on from evolution to tuition rates for the children of illegal immigrants. :D

Case tests immigrant tuition rate

Advocates are lining up on both sides of a case pitting out-of-state students against Kansas students who aren't legal residents.

BY KATHERINE LEAL UNMUTH

The Wichita Eagle

Isaac, 18, a member of the National Honor Society, calls himself a nerd because he loves physics and math classes. His dream job: mechanical engineer.

Claudia, 20, performs at school assemblies as part of a dance team. Her dream job: psychologist.

Jorge, 18, plays soccer, is a guitarist at his church and volunteers with cancer patients at a local hospital. His dream job: electrical engineer.

All of these Wichita high school seniors plan to attend college with the help of a law the Kansas Legislature passed last year allowing certain illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition.

"My sister dropped out and said it was because she wouldn't have the opportunity for higher education," said Jorge, who moved to Wichita from Mexico when he was 11. "I always kept in my mind there's going to be a chance. Well, thank goodness, it happened."

The students are not eligible for state or federal financial aid and often still struggle to pay tuition at the in-state rate.

The law is being challenged with a suit, Day v. Sebelius, brought by two lawyers representing 24 out-of-state students against the governor and the Kansas Board of Regents. Oral arguments will be held Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Topeka.

Read The Rest Here

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What do you think? :confused: Should they pay out-of-state- tuition like everyone else that isn't a resident of the state?

I think that if they live in the state, which they do, they should get to pay in-state tuition.

Illegal immigrants deserve no US benefits.

Let them pay for their own education - not subsidized by a state's taxpayers.

They should be deported.

18-11=7
and he's still illegally in the US?

but- he has lived in the state so even though illegally in the US, meets state residency, so should have in-state tuition.

While it is great that some of the illegal immigrants are smart and talented, why keep giving to them who are not citizens.

What happened to the Citizens of The USA who are poor and cannot afford to go to College, get welfare, Health Insurenace,
and just be able to afford to live in a pitence but live a life?


College is becoming so expensive that there are so many who cannot go to a school of higher education. Some states are asking for High School Credits and SAT test grades be higher to gain adminssion.

Mo/Ks have come up with bordering states countys can attend each others Colleges at in state rates. That does make sense.

Ah, the good old days, work during the summer and pay for a school year. Many of My Brothers worked and still do part time jobs, I mopped and waxed Dorm floors.

I guess they have to find a way to get people into Kansas and that whole creationism thing isn't as much of a draw as they'd hoped.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

:p , ;)

Do a little research on Kansas, might just suprise you!:D

Hell, I am a transplant but am a Homey Now!:cool:

Oh, thank god I live in East Ks., KC Meto Area!!!!!!!:)

Oh Kansas, for shits and grins!

My Vanity Plate, LXA 1 is in the center of a Bison (Buffalo) and at the bottom is (Home On The Range). GAG! Covered by My LXA Plate Frame!:)

Kansas State Song, "Home on The Range". Oh, give me a home where the buffalo roam and the deer and the antelope play. Reason deer and antelope hop is who in the hell wants to step in Buffalo Shit all day!:D

Kansas: at least it's not Nebraska.

True That!:)

Anything besides, O and L ?

Well, there's Ogallalla (or however it's spelled) with the feedlot the size of Rhode Island that smells for miles and miles and miles.

Poor Americans get Pell grants. In NC, Tuition has been raised several times for financial aid for the poorest students.

Illegal Immigrants pay medicare and social secruity. They will never see a dime they pay into the system. NC agriculture and service industries could not survive without Illegals.

NC is considering a similar item. To be eligible, a person must attend high school in NC for four years. I believe only a few dozen will qualify for in state tuition if this passes.

About 34 more people and that's it.

Too bad. They're breaking the law by being here. If they want to benefit from the system, there are legal avenues towards gaining your citizenship. I've known several immigrants -- one married into our family and got her citizenship. It's tough, but worth it.

Also, as to paying medicare and social security, it's my understanding that they must be using a false social security number to be doing this. Okay, so identity theft makes them martyrs?

This is incorrect. A social security number is not necessary to pay into the system - ONLY TO RECEIVE BENEFITS.

True that GP.

Amzazing, one of the Most Biggest and Well endowed School Systems in Johnson Country Ks. (Also, one of the wealthiest in The US), sent letters stating that there were problems with SS #s. Mass leavings and not to be heard from since. (Illegals).

U. Ks. just announced, want to raise Tuition to $4,800.00 for 15 Credit hours= 1 Semester!:(

So, almost $10,000 to attend a State U. not counting anything else.

Damn sometimes it is good to be old. Paid out of State Tuition and worked during the summer to pay for a School Year.!:cool:

How does one pay into the system without a SSN?

It is my understanding that duplicate or wrong SSN's are filed in a "to be filed" section where they are basically ignored. Apparently, that file has mushroomed.

This has been caused primarily due to false or duplicate SSN's filed by illegal aliens.

To obtain employment in the US, a worker must provide a SSN to the employer. That number is used to pay Social Security, taxes, etc.

Please see this congressional testimony, it has basically all you need to know:

http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/uscir/092994.html

Kev, while that might be true, there are Illegals who could give a damn about paying into SS! They make Americano $$$ send it back home and live like well to do people!

But, remember, the reason they are here is to work as for wages, most Americans wont work for that pay! They/We are to damn Good?:(

Prime example: Customer comes in the store today. Asked If I know of anyone hiring. Yes, Dollar General, Oh No, I mean Warehouse work.:rolleyes:

What the hell am I a Hiring Agency?:confused:

Tom, I'm not against them being here. I am against them being here illegally, running up bills in our public hospitals, taking up space in our prison system, etc. without anyone but the American people being held accountable.

Where I would like for the US to just send Mexico a bill for their contribution to our public problems, I don't find that likely.

I think we'd all agree that our current system is basically living a lie. There are lots of people -- American citizens really being hurt due to government inaction on this. I'm all for migrant workers, I agree that they serve a real need in our community, but we need to have a system through which immigration can be legal, controlled -- not in numbers, but in terms of who crosses the border, and self-funded.

Perhaps you failed to go to ssa.gov, a lovely website with all sorts of information about the social security system. It has basically all you need to know.

Look into items such as the "Tax ID number."

Are you referring to the ITIN? It is to allow voluntary compliance with the tax code.

http://policy.ssa.gov/erm/rules.nsf/...56d180066599a/$FILE/Rajivs_Khanna_pc.txt

Please be aware that to use this in place of a SSN to gain employment is also illegal.

according to this article, the SSA estimates that 3/4 of all illegal immigrant workers pay into SS and medicare. Whether or not you agree with the author's conclusion that the current viability of social security relies on this huge number ($56 billion, it seems), it seems an interesting point.

KT - what's your real point here? I have difficulty assigning your feelings to much more than rampant xenophobia - I've never heard of an American citizen being denied health care, etc because of illegal immigrants. I've only heard of American citizens becoming rich by utilizing immigrant workers.

It's a two-way road - if you're willing to assign such blame to the immigrants and 'Mexico' (as you put it), how do you feel about the citizens that are the enablers? Are these workers really such a 'drag' on the average American, when most are in the work force and earning a living? Not to even introduce the type of jobs being geared toward immigrant workers . . .

Also - how does this apply to in-state tuition at colleges? Doesn't the prospect of higher education help to alleviate the endemic problems that you associate with illegal immigration?

Here is a question
 

How can a person be a "legal" resident of a specific state, when they aren't a "legal" resident/immigrant of the country?

Re: Here is a question
 

You have just touched on the heart of the case, which makes sense. You are not a citizen, so you must pay out of state tuition (or whatever other international students pay).


Case opens on illegal immigrants' tuition break

BY KATHERINE LEAL UNMUTH

The Wichita Eagle


TOPEKA - Lawyers argued in federal court Tuesday whether a Kansas law granting in-state tuition to illegal immigrants is legal.

It is the first federal challenge to the law and is seen as a test case nationally on the issue. Eight other states have similar laws.

Kris Kobach, a constitutional law professor from the University of Missouri-Kansas City, is challenging the law with the support of the Federation for American Immigration Reform. They filed suit on behalf of 24 out-of-state students and parents who feel the law discriminates against them.

Kobach argued that, according to a 1996 federal law, the state doesn't have the right to offer such a residency-based benefit to illegal immigrants when it is not offered to all U.S. citizens. Only the federal government can control immigration law, he said.

"The federal government has not thrown in the towel and said, 'Go ahead, states,' " Kobach said.

He also argued that offering the benefit to illegal immigrants places a heavier burden on the state, causing tuition rates to increase.

Last fall, 30 students in the state benefitted from the law. Those students were required to sign an affidavit stating they are pursuing legal status.

The state, represented by Michael Delaney, argued that the law is worded so that it is not based on residency. The law grants in-state tuition to any student who has attended a Kansas high school for at least three years and has graduated or holds a certificate from a Kansas high school.

He also said the plaintiff students have no standing to bring the case because they are not harmed and would pay out-of-state tuition regardless of the law. They also have no private right to request enforcement of immigration law, he said.

"There isn't any basis on which the plaintiffs are suffering an injury as a result of the law," Delaney said. "This is a classic case of an interest group that is concerned and seeks to become a sort of private attorney general."


Read The Rest Here

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This leads me back to the SSN issue again. Most illegals (not just Mexicans, but I do know of others) do share SSNs. My mother is a nurse for a small husband/wife clinic who's patients are primarily of a particular immigrant group. They track patients via SSN, and she said its not uncommon to have 5 or 6 people listed under the same SSN. It is a common practice because nothing is done to prevent it.

This site's goal is anything but to present an objective view of illegal immigration. I would seriously call into question the validity of any figures that they profess to be factual. I'll admit that I don't have anything to disprove them, however, this dot-org site has a very specific agenda, and those numbers seem to paint a rosey picture that may or may not be the case.

As for the figure you cite about 3/4 of all illegal immigrants paying into medicare, I find that claim to be dubious at best. 3/4 of immigrants, maybe, but illegal ones?

The testimony on this testimony before the Subcommittee on immigration, border security and claims provides some pretty compelling numbers though:

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Pay particular attention to the data that is presented that shows how many illegals that do file get tax subsidies in excess of their liabilities -- in other words, they pay taxes, but they end up making a profit in doing so.

I do not suffer from xenophobia. I suffer from the belief that these illegal practices cause considerable harm to our economy. Further, I never alleged any American citizen was turned down for health care, etc. due to illegal immigrants. Of course, if you wanted to get technical about it, many public hospitals do attribute their closings or financial distress to the fact that they received many illegal aliens that did not pay for the services they received. I'm not sure how sound a statement that is, but I certainly have heard it enough times that I suspect there may be some substance to it.

Also, for every American that gets rich off this, there are taxes going unpaid insurance premiums not paid, other legal employers that are unable to compete due to unethical practices by their competition, etc. Most of this is described in the first link I posted.

I think the Mexican group is by far the largest illegal immigrant group, so assigning them the most blame, I believe is a fair practice. Also, I never said anything about employers. You are jumping to a conclusion here. Personally, I'd like to see employers of illegal aliens held to severe criminal and financial penalties. I'm not sure what the law is there now, but I believe that there are some pretty strong laws in place already. However, they are laxly enforced.

The connection exists, but it seems that our discussion has digressed a lot, hasn't it?

Universities are funded by citizens living in a certain state who pay taxes. If an individual's parents do not contribute to the state that pays for that school to exist, and they are breaking the law in the first place by being there, why should they be rewarded?

To me, it appears to be a case of people who disrespect the laws of our land being rewarded. I just don't appreciate being taken advantage of like that.

I'll agree with the site's lack of neutrality, it was merely the first I found - however, the data given was purported to come from the SSA, and showed up often in the google search. Take it for what you will, but it was specifically about illegal immigrants.

Unless you have a cite for these claims, I find them dubious at best - and until you can provide support for them, it inches closer to something less than academic interest. That was my point there, nothing more.


This is the only point I can really get behind - it's tough for me to unilaterally deny in-state benefits, though, because until widespread reform takes place, it feels like I'm hiding my head in the sand (the 'ostrich mentality'), if that makes any sense - I guess my point is that I see where you're coming from in a strictly legal sense on the whole, but it seems that there may be some strong benefits to this specific program.

I couldn't find that data anywhere, and I looked pretty hard. What search criterion were you using?

Quote:

Unless you have a cite for these claims, I find them dubious at best - and until you can provide support for them, it inches closer to something less than academic interest. That was my point there, nothing more.

The above referenced congressional testimony illustrated these claims extremely well, and in very specific and user friendly terms. It's a lot of info to cut and paste, so if you doubt the veracity of those claims, just check the site.

Quote:

This is the only point I can really get behind - it's tough for me to unilaterally deny in-state benefits, though, because until widespread reform takes place, it feels like I'm hiding my head in the sand (the 'ostrich mentality'), if that makes any sense - I guess my point is that I see where you're coming from in a strictly legal sense on the whole, but it seems that there may be some strong benefits to this specific program.

Our entire immigration policy exhibits the 'ostrich mentality'. I think we can both agree that there needs to be some substantial reform with concessions to and from both sides. The status quo is nothing more than a lot of blatant abuse with the occasional big bust (like Wal-Mart a couple of years ago with their janatorial contractor) just for show.

Here are some ideas that I think we could both get behind:

#1 -- Undocumented immigration must cease entirely, or at least as much as possible.

#2 -- Legal immigration should be available for the asking to any individual who wants to come here granted that immigrants pay taxes and whatever else the state deems necessary for them to be at least self-supporting.

#3 -- Employers should face strict criminal and financial penalties for carrying illegal immigrants (or anyone for that matter) in an "off the books" capacity.

As for education, it should only be available to people who have paid substantial taxes to support the institutions of higher-ed. On the other hand, I think that illegal aliens should be able to apply for student visas through their home government. The United States offers a great deal in the way of scholarship money to foriegn students. I see no reason to penalize foriegn students just because of their home address. If we offer scholarships to Mexican citizens, let them apply under the same set of rules that we would give to other Mexican citizens.

As for giving them in-state tuition, why? They're not legally residents of the state if they're not legally residents of the country.

As a Black Women told Me, they are here to do the work that no one else will do! She too is is fed up with the crap of give me!

Her first thing was The Members of Her Race who do not get off of asses as She Does and go to work instead of the Liquor store or Bar!

But, The Mexicans will do work for pitence that Whites and Blacks wont do.

Yes, while I admire them, they still are not legal and getting money that can go toward Americans who need it and desearve it. So, that said, put the dead beat asses to work or quit houseing and feeding them! Guess what, they will work!:rolleyes:

TOM EARP. GO BACK TO COLLEGE AND TAKE A LABOR MARKETS CLASS.

I will make this as simple as possible for you.

There is a job open in Kansas City, a metropolitan area with which you are familiar. The job is to sort though the garbage at a landfill with your toothbrush until you find all the used tampons, which you will place in a bin. The job title is TAMPON SELECTOR.

KC has been advertising for a TAMPON SELECTOR for over six months. No current KC residents will take this job.

An illegal immigrant from Canada takes this job of TAMPON SELECTOR.

Please explain to me how the Canadian TAMPON SELECTORis taking money that should be going to Americans. The job of TAMPON SELECTOR was unfilled by Americans because their reservation wage - the price at which they are willing to take a job - is higher than the wage being paid for TAMPON SELECTORS.

You can't say they are doing work nobody will do and then say they are taking dollars away from Americans. You're being contradictory.

GP, there are legal channels that this Canadian could have gone through to avoid being an illegal immigrant.

Obtaining a work visa for a job that an American wouldn't do in this instance might not be impossible, of course, I'm no immigration lawyer. I'll ask one the next time I talk to one whether one can get a work visa to be a tampon selector :)

To be fair, I reviewed the current process, and in general, it's so complex that it is recommended that immigrants employ immigration attorneys.

In any case, the law needs to be reformed, however, the current law, as unjust as it is should be enforced.

I am just amazed that there are illegal immigrants who are up in arms about this issue and making their opinions known everywhere. If I were an illegal immigrant, I would try to keep a pretty low profile so I didn't get deported. Isn't that what happens?

Judge dismisses suit over immigrant tuition law
 

Posted on Tue, Jul. 05, 2005

Judge dismisses suit over immigrant tuition law

Associated Press


TOPEKA - A federal judge today dismissed a lawsuit challenging a year-old state law that gives some illegal immigrants a break on tuition at state universities, community colleges and vocational colleges.

The law says illegal immigrants can qualify for lower tuition rates reserved for Kansas residents if they have attended a Kansas high school for at least three years and have graduated or earned a general education development certificate in Kansas. Also, they must actively be seeking legal immigration status or plan to do so when they are eligible.

Challenging the law were six parents and 18 students who were residents of other states but were attending Kansas institutions and paid higher rates.

The difference can be substantial. For example, state residents taking 15 hours of undergraduate classes at the University of Kansas pay $2,081 a semester in tuition, compared with $5,069 for non-Kansas residents.




Read the rest here

This idea came up in the Minnesota legislature as well. I don't believe that it passed (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't agree with this idea. Its unfair to out of state students. How can you be a resident of a state but not a resident of the ENTIRE COUNTRY? And its unfair to international students that go through the correct changes to be able to attend college in the US.

The reasoning behind this, Jubilance, is that these undocumented students are different from out of state students in that they came here when they were children (most, if not all, under the age of 15) and have resided in this state for quite some time. I think what a lot of people forget is that these were not adults deciding on their own account to break the law of the United States of America. These were children, most under the guise of some adult who decided to break the law. Now that they are here, what should we do with them?

I'm not 100% sure about this Minnesota law, but in New Jersey something similar is coming up in the legislature. In this case, after attending college and taking part in some community service projects, these children eventually become legal residents of New Jersey, allowing them to truly benefit the community legally, if this legislation should pass. I personally think this, coupled with a revamping of our immigration system will solve many of our immigration problems.

For now, however, I think a lot of you need to realize that without illegal immigrants, our economy would probably suffer greatly. Many friends and relatives of mine have spoken to me of the many companies that actively, though surreptitiously, recruit illegal immigrants from other countries (and no, it's not just Mexico) to work in the US illegally for a lot more than they would be making in their country of origin. And when you're faced with the daunting task of feeding your family or putting clothes on your children, what would you do? But, of course, you don't see anyone discussing that matter. I think the important thing we should be discussing is "why does everyone want to leave their own country and what can we do about it?"

They Are Not Citizens.

So, Why take the same rights from legal American Citizens?

Explain this to me so that I can understand it!:rolleyes:

Tom,
It's not that simple. Nothing is. I think the best way to look at this is to try to put yourself in these kids' shoes. You're taken from your home by your parents or some other adult to live in the United States with no documentation at age 6. You have gone to school and have now reached 11th grade. You are in the top 10% of your class and have amazing SAT scores. You were in your Student Government Association, Debate Team, etc. You plan to be a lawyer working for a non-profit organization that helps low-income families get back on their feet. Unfortunately, you find out that, because you're undocumented, you can't attend college. You don't have the money to pay for out-of-state tuition, and you don't qualify for any financial aid. So, you have to resort to working at McDonald's as a cashier to help your family get by.

Unfortunately, I wish I was making this all up, but it's the story of a good friend of mine. You see, at age 6, what crime can someone have committed? There's a lot that you can learn by researching some of the problems in inner cities. There are very few who have the opportunity to leave, do something for themselves, and then give back to their community. I think the system we have now is one which greatly perpetuates this problem.

Wow, I'm surprised that the US is not just waving the bill all-together! I was denied financial aid during college, because (in the words of my financial aid advisor) I was white, not married, and didn't have any children.

As an RA, I found that most of my residents were from India, China and other countries. They were on FULL tuition assistance. This is a very sore subject for me.

There are a lot of people in the top 10% of their class with amazing SAT scores, including many Americans. Let the Americans get those benefits first since we don't have an endless supply of money.

Non-American illegals have to accept that they can be deported and don't have the same rights, hence why they're illegal. Why call them illegals if they have the same benefits as legal aliens?

Their parents can send them to school in their home country, they can work to make money to go to school, if they're talented they can get scholarships, or they can just not attend college. Those are the costs of being an illegal.

-Rudey

I was denied financial aid in college and grad school. I'm black, not married, no kids, 4.0 GPA from a top HS, excellent test scores, yada yada yada. I didn't lose any sleep over who had gotten scholarships--regardless if they were athletes, poor, idiotic, or from Antartica. It's just the way that cookie crumbled. In other words, that's just life.

When you fill out forms for financial aid, you have to provide your parents' SS#. What happens to kids who happen to be citizens, but have undocumented parents? How does financial need get calculated if the parents' income can't be verified because they're getting paid under the table? These are questions that all states will have to answer as the amount of children of illegal immigrants increases.

There are many ethnic minorities that aren't on full tuition assistance. Many who do are on it because of some financial or educational need. But that is a very different debate.