Paper Members
 

Do you have respect for members of your organization that are considered only paper? I've heard people say you can't pick your process. I mean wouldn't you be pissed if you worked your ass off on line and someone took the easy route.

Of course I don't respect people who were made by signing their name and writing a check. If they wanted to just join a organization to do community service they could have joined the YMCA. The Y takes peoples money everyday. People who didn't pledge are simply not bruhs. There are simply others. They are not even real members of the organization. How could they be? They didn't earn anything. My parents told me a long time ago anything worth having you should earn. You should have to earn becoming a member of a fraternity or sorority.

I'm glad you broached this topic. Typically I'm a bystander, but after reading some of the posts in the other forums I just have to ask a few questions:
1. Is there any evidence that MIP, which several of you have indicated to be the breeding ground for Paper members, has hurt your organizations on a national level? Everyone says what a terrible thing it is but does anybody have data or proof to back it up? For example, have your organizations' projects been hindered in anyway since 1990 when most say the Paper intake began? If not what are we basing the anti-paper sentiment on? Is it a loss of tradition? Because on a local chapter by chapter basis traditions vary all the time and so does pledging in a lot of cases.

2. If you are upset about MIP isnt your anger misplaced? Shouldnt you be angry at your organization instead of the members your organization brings in? Thats like being upset with your kid sister because she didnt have it as rough as you did when your gripe should really be with your mom.

3. If you're upset with MIP can't some type of movement be initiated to reverse your organization's policy on pledging?

4. Does the process you went through resemble even remotely the process your founders went through? If it doesn't and the former was the original thing, arent you all faking anyway?

My fraternity wasn't only built on community service it was also built on brotherhood. How can someone call someone else a brother or think they know a person in a weekend. Also how can 30 someones get to know everyone in a weekend? I don't think it's possible. Plus they didn't earn it. Has it hurt community service? Maybe not but if they wanted to do community service and not pledge those people could have joined a myriad of church or community organization and done the same thing without pledging a fraternity or sorority. I think for most organization you'd be amazed how similar pledge process are within that organization. I would be willing to be that a frat bruh. of mine on the west coast may not have the exact same experience but a very similar one. You are right though a movement should be made to change the MIP. The cause has been tried in the past and I am sure it will continue to be tried in the future.

Blonde1:

I can try to answer your questions.

1.No. Yes. No. Yes.

2.Perhaps.

3.Yes. Voting.

4.No. No.

PEACE

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7BA94:
[B]Of course I don't respect people who were made by signing their name and writing a check.
Do you respect the brothers that brought them in that way? Paper has to come from somewhere


If they wanted to just join a organization to do community service they could have joined the YMCA.
Don't most of you groups claim to be service oriented organizations? If youre saying that's not central to your purpose than you, poster, could have also joined the Crips or Hells Angels. They're organizations are remarkably similar to the kind you seem to idealize.

People who didn't pledge are simply not bruhs. There are simply others. They are not even real members of the organization.
Than how ridiculous is your organization for letting them in? If I allow some unworthy stranger in my house, who's the fool, me or him?


How could they be? They didn't earn anything.
This is interesting because they run the same argument against affirmative action.


My parents told me a long time ago anything worth having you should earn.
I agree with you here but I know several BGLO members who become inactive after they've earned it. Perhaps you should also start a crusade against that. Perhaps members should hold their organizations in enough esteem that earn never enters the past tense and people continue to work for their group throughout their membership

See what you started Soror?

Check my post in the Que Psi Phi Forum. I have very strong feelings about this but I have posted there because unregistered peoples can't just chime in and make comments about things they know very little about.

PEACE

[quote]Originally posted by 1Blonde:
[b]No I do not respect the bruh. who brought them in that way. He disrepected himself by doing that.

No my organization is not similar to the crips or the hells angels. If you read the post, it said organization was founded for brotherhood and community service. The two go together. I am trying to make the point that if a person just wants to do community service they can join the YMCA or other community organization and stay out of my frat.

I agree it is ridiculous to let people in who don't pledge. That is why I am against it.

Almost always affirmative action is used for people who are qualified for the position. If you don't pledge, how do I know you are qualified.

I have said in past posts the hardest part about being an Alpha is the work you do after you cross.

What I don't understand is why Greeks look at new M.I.P. members that way. You can't be mad at a person for playing by the rules. That just doesn't make sense. People need to get their egos in check. Pledging is not legal in NPHC orgs. That's all there is to it. I must question a person's motives if they are willing to RISK expulsion from their 'beloved' org just so that they can SAY that they MADE somebody. Seriously, folks. That's a li'l crazy.

Then how can you respect your national organization? They're making all this possible. If its a matter of kow towing to lawsuits then doesnt that make your organization just plain cowardly? How can you respect your fraternity president? It seems like you all are shooting yourselves in the foot.

If you dont want the non registereds to voice in an opinion, then it 's simple: dont post here. You always take your chances of that happening when you do.

As far as being an outsider who doesnt know, look, if you have one or two friends in a black fraternity or sorority you've basically heard all the stories, heard all the talk and seen all the pledge pictures because you all may be secret societies but few of you know how to keep secrets very well.


It's interesting that you seem so set on seperating yourself from regular service groups since Ive often heard your kind promote themselves as just such. Also, there are different ways to come by a brotherhood or sisterhood. In my church, a sisterhood of women already exists just based on striving for a common ideal. Dont black people think of themselves as belonging to a brother hood based in similar culture? No kind of pledge activity per say took place in any of those examples. Maybe your ideas of brotherhood are too limited

Man, we beat this subject into the ground. I feel yawl on needing a process, but most of the time people don't have control over thier process.

I would agree that this MIP thing is for the birds. I hate it.

But this is a silly subject that is devisive not only in my frat, but I believe in all BGLOS. I could show you bros that have been to hell and back. Taken mad wood, kane, smile whipes, chair, (and sometimes just plain old street a$$ whipings to get into the frat. Now not all, but some of these same individuals won't even show thier faces at a grad meeting, won't show thier faces at a kommunity function. But when it's time to party, bag some women, or make some scrollers, they are the first ones in line. That to me is silly. Now in my opinion once a brother, always a brother (period), Regardless of what you do for the frat. But I have more respect for that person that walks in, and busts his a$$ doing comunity service, than the person who got his a$$ busted on line, and then does nothing for the frat. It's that simply.

We spend way too much time on this subject. Can anyone prove that the founders of your organization pledged? Would you call your founders skaters, or paper wieghts? And for any of you willing to say yes, I will beat your a$$ myself!

Respect a person for what they do for your organization, and what they bring too it. This subject sort of makes me angry, becuase we make or bring in thousands of young men every year, yet only a small portion stay active. I won't spout the numbers, but only a minute number of men are financial out of over a 100,000. Many of those 100,000 took that LONG journey to Kappa Land. But upon arrival, did nothing but sit on the very a$$ that just got beat for that journey.

Ok, I'm long winded, I am going to shut up now.

Peace

WL

Also, what is this 'Join the YMCA'? Makes no sense. If a person wants to be an XYZ, and the national legislation of XYZ CLEARLY says "No pledging, No hazing" then what do you expect them to do? Damn. Who runs it? Chapter or National? True, you bonded while you were on line and you wouldn't trade that experience for anything in the world, but damn. This "I GOTTA HAZE" sentiment is just too ridiculous. Couple years ago, a friend of mine (best friend, matter of fact) was home from school, and she was talking about her sorority. She says:

"We got a line going over in the Spring. I'm about to HAZE the F*** out of these little B******!"

What? That's not what sisterhood is about. Wake up.

My ideals of brotherhood are limitless. I have brothers and sister on the human scale and brothers and sisters on the black family scale. I have people I call brother who I met through the military. That being said there is something unique and different that comes from the bruhs. I pledged with and who were pledged. If you have gone through it, you probably know what I mean. If not, I am not sure you can understand.

Plus nobody I mean nobody can take what a person has earned away from them not an individual, not a chapter, not a region, and not a national organization.

The national organization is wrong. MIP is the wrong law of the land. I'll take my lead from the civil rights leaders of the past if you believe something is wrong speak out about it.
The Nupe is right a process is needed and bruhs who don't do anything in the community need to be brought back into the fold. Although, I wouldn't go as far to say as someone who skated and does work is better than someone who didn't skate and does nothing, but that is my opinion. I also don't feel it causes division. I love all my frat bruhs. and on the fraternal level could care less about those others. As a frat of mine said, "I would rather kick it with a Que who pledged than someone who skated."

Its interesting that you were in the military and are also a fraternity member who so vehemently hates "paper".

Do you see a connection there? I think that says alot about you as an individual.

All I have to say is AMEN frat!

[This message has been edited by 7BA94 (edited August 29, 2000).]

7BA94 you are proof that MIP cant be all that bad. Cause someone like you "pledged" and got in. The more I read your posts the more I question the Omegas who brought you into their fraternity.

I'll make sure I do not take this the wrong way. First I am an Ice cold Alpha. For you who are uninformed, that is Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Inc. If you did read the posts and you think I am wrong, you have the right to your opinion. Just make sure you read them and understood them; not just read them for surface or face value.

Sorry-- Mistook you for an Omega

First of all, we must be posting at the same time because I often don't see your answers until after I comment.

Secondly, calm down, I corrected myself.

And I KNOW posters on this board aren't even going to try to pull that you didnt read my post carefully card because we all read a little more quickly than maybe we should and we all get misinterpreted. I suspect youre trying to land a jab to soothe some dented ego. In any case, whats so great about ice? It melts.

First let me say that I don't disagree with anyone on here who believes in a process. I don't know how anyone can trully learn everything that they have to in a class room or on one weekend, or whatever. You need a process that will help to build that bond that is formed between those who have struggled together.

But what I have a real problem with, is people who shun other members becuase of how they were made. Yeah, there are some that walk in, simply to wear a T-Shirt, but somone who pledged in and wears simply wears a T-Shirt is just as bad in my opinion.

I think that we need to move the debate from how you got in, to what the hell you are doing now. If you have luv for your frat or soror., then you will work for it. But your love for the frat should be inspite of not becuase of your process. If you didn't luv Kappa before you entered, then you probably had no reason being on line, and no amount of ass whipping kan make you a better brother.

That's just my take. I will shut up now.

No ego just making sure that if you are disagreeing; you have thought about why you are disagreeing and have read and understood the posts. On the ice part, ice is a state of water the most powerful substance on the planet. It sustains life and has the ability to take it.
It's not only love for the frat it is also love for those individuals within the frat. It's getting that phone call at 3 am when you are sound asleep and getting up to help that individual frat brother because he needs help. This brother who you call may not do anything in the frat on the community service level, but he is the first there when a brothers in need. I can guarantee 90 out of 100 people who went through one weekend of whatever would not do the same. Why would they they do not even know the people they call brother.


[This message has been edited by 7BA94 (edited August 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by 7BA94 (edited August 29, 2000).]

just making sure that if you are disagreeing; you have thought about why you are disagreeing and have read and understood the posts.
My mistake on the fraternity name thing, yes okay, but dont flatter yourself. Your arguements arent that complicated, in fact I wonder if you've thought out YOUR position or if its just a gut reaction to change.


On the ice part, ice is a blah blah blah
Thanks. I was joking. Its a shame you cant see the face Im making right now.


It's not only love for the frat it is also love for those individuals within the frat.
Youve already said that you would never associate with individuals your frat let in. Am I missing the love part? Youre saying you dont trust your frats judgement calls. Mmmhmm. Where does love fit into all that?


It's getting that phone call at 3 am when you are sound asleep and getting up to help that individual frat brother because he needs help.
If thats all it is we're not really missing out on anything huh?

I wonder what would happen if MIP was actually embraced by members. People often say MIP people cant have a strong bond with their line bros. Maybe thats because candidates have already taken in all the ugly sentiments against MIP and turn it into a self fulfilling prophecy.

1Blonde: You were joking about the ice so was I no big deal.

I don't associate on the fraternal level with people who skated into the fraternity. I would do almost anything for my brothers. No I do no trust the MIP at all.

You are right it is no fun to wake up out of a good sleep to go help a brother in need, but that is where being selflessness (Is that a word?) comes in and knowing that if the situation was reversed your brother would be there to help you at 3 am. These brothers will also be there at and in your wedding or maybe God parents to your kids, or even look out for your mother when you are away from home. There is a true brotherhood that is there, and that brotherhood can not be formed in a weekend.

[This message has been edited by 7BA94 (edited August 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by 7BA94 (edited August 29, 2000).]

7BA94,
Frat, I agree with you.

1Blonde,
I might have overlooked this info., in earlier posts, but are you in a Greek Letter Organization. I hope so because you seem to have a heavy tongue on this topic.

Wow, this is a hot topic and it just got started today!

Well I think that everyone just needs to remember that everyone has a different idea of what pledging is. Pledging to me is promising that you will uphold the values, principles and ideals of your brother/sisterhood. It also means that you will promise to keep the traditions of the sorority/fraternity sacred and secret until the day you die. It also means to me that you promise to be trustworthy, loyal, dependable to the organization and it's members. You also pledge to love and respect other members and to provide love, respect and friendship to the members of the organization as well. This could go on and on really. But ya'll get the gist.

I just think that nowadays, pledging is synonomous(sp?) w/ hazing and that's not always the case. I'm sure that there are organizations out there that pledge their members w/out hazing.

Also administrators of various colleges have come up with a list of things that are defined as "hazing" and they have, in my opinion, gotten out of control. I put hazing in quotes b/c honestly, some of the things I've seen on this list are ridiculous. For example, the notion of setting study hours or study table for pledges. On some campuses, this is considered hazing. Now really, do ya'll think this is hazing? I don't. If it's strictly studying--not studying/reviewing anything that has to do w/ the sorority/fraternity--then to me, it's ok. I mean, most orgs all strive for academic excellence. So what are we as greeks saying when we can't provide an outlet for our pledges to study? As greeks we all know that when you pledge, there does come a time when things get overwhelming w/ classes, pledging and work (if you had to). I know for me, I was very thankful for having study hours. Now, active members have decided to also join their pledges at study table b/c I guess it's not considered hazing if the actives are doing it w/ them. I think study hours is a good idea and it's even better if actives partake in it as well. But I still don't see a problem w/ it period. But that's just one example of what is now considered "hazing". There are other things as well that similar to that. I read it on a website somewhere. I can't remember the address at the moment.

I just think that if we let pledging get to the point of hazing--in the sense of beating people until they are black and blue or drinking alcohol until they pass out, then that's obviously wrong and should NOT be tolerated. Stuff like that is NOT necessary. But I don't see anything wrong w/ pledging, as I have defined it. I also don't see anything wrong w/ an org having certain activities that pledges perform to help them understand the ideals of that org. Or to further help them pledge their love and dedication to the org.

And last, I personally know what it's like to go through MIP and to pledge. My sisters and I founded a chapter of my org. We went through both. At the end, we all agreed that pledging was the key and the way to go. But remember, our pledging was how I defined it above. So in that case, it was good (and SO necessary http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif). Honestly, the other way didn't work well....at all! But that's my 4 cents http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by ZChi4Life (edited August 29, 2000).]

Damn!!!!!!
Just look at the way we get when talking about the whole paper/pleding thing. OF COURSE IT HURTS US!!!!!!! This is enough evidence. It hurts orgs. because it creates divisions: those who pledge and those who did not. Honestly, I try to say paper does not bother me, somehow it influences the way I act towards those who I know did not pledge. Many times it depends of the person. I have a friend member or XYZ sorority- We came in same semester but some people get upset when I call her sands 'cause she is "paper". I love the girl to death and, SOMETIMES, it does not bother me to know she did not do what I did to become greek. I just feel like she was deprived of the experience, but it does not make her less of a person. If I could go back, I would pledge again. If my kids wanted to be greek, I would like for them to pledge-
Hope I answered the /?

Another thing:

I WILL ALWAYS RESPECT FELLOW GREEKS NOMATTER HOW THEY COME IN!!!!, NOW, DO I FEEL I CAN RELATE TO THEM THE SAME WAY????
NO WAY!!!!!! THE TERM SANDS, and SOROR/FRAT HAS A MEANING.
RESPECT ALL- LOVE SOME.
Ps> considering the meaning of the word LOVE>

Ok...OK...where do I even begin?
First, let me start by stating that I am not a member of any BGLO.

(Y'all I can't even breathe I want to get at this so bad!)

Now, as far as the original question goes, I will not...COULD NOT address this particular issue because, as I stated, I am not a member of a Greek organization, therefore I am not ignorant or pompous enough to debate a topic of which I have no actual knowledge/experience of....especially not with members who do.

With that said, my intention is not to debate MIP vs. Pledge Process. It is, however, to address Blonde1. As we are all entitled to our opinions (Hell, even if we weren't I would have stated mine anyway)...I just had to make a few comments to you.

I think your comments to/about black fraternities and their members who are representing in this thread are arrogant, rude and to say the least very unnecessary. Your attempts at being sarcastic and leveling what you, alone, deem as humor toward the different terms they use within their orgs. is highly tacky.
I applaud the men from the various BGLOs who have responded to your posts with respect, eloquence, and dignity because had it been me (and No, it's not me)...but had it been me I wouldn't be explaining what or why my organization does/doesn't... says/doesn't say whatever it is that you are trying to be a smart alleck about by asking/saying all it is that you're saying.

Oh, and news flash dear: Having talked to "one or two members of a black sorority/fraternity" does not give you any special authority to go around speaking upon BGLO issues! Actually, chatting with 2 or 3 members helps you to understand about the goings on of BGLOs just as much as I can learn about and cockily debate upon "pastoralization" from speaking with one or two people who majored in Anthropology....not too dam much Blonde1...Not too dam much!

Lastly, I have stated my opinions/thoughts/ideas as you have yours... in a careless, not-so-nice-manner...and with that being said and done I will take leave from this board. You can respond anyway you choose, if at all, but I do not wish to discuss this any further. Have a pleasant evening.

[This message has been edited by Sexy Mocha (edited August 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sexy Mocha (edited August 29, 2000).]

Okay, touche on the ice thing=-)

To answer one posters question, Im not a member, but I do find it all interesting. Its laughable that members of XYZ organizations are upset at my voicing an opinion, since its not unusual for such members to be putting all of their business out on campus anyway. Maybe you all should make attempts to keep either your mouths closed or to censure your brothers because much of what happens as far as processes go tends to become public knowledge. Yall are some serious braggers.


As far as being ignorant or pompous, well Im not surprised people would throw that out there since I'm disputing ideas that are so commonly held.

But this begs the question--- poster why are you so outraged if you're not a member? If I cant question, then wouldnt the same argument be that such strong emotions like youre showing should be reserved for actual members of the organizations?

I think your comments to/about black fraternities and their members who are representing in this thread are arrogant, rude and to say the least very unnecessary.
Of course you do. If I agreed with 7A I'm sure you'd feel differently.

Your attempts at being sarcastic and leveling what you, alone, deem as humor toward the different terms they use within their orgs. is highly tacky.
Tacky? Well I wasnt trying to score points for taste so I can accept that


I applaud the men from the various BGLOs who have responded to your posts with respect, eloquence, and dignity
But just out of curiosity, getting hit with a paddle would be dignified? O-Kay


because had it been me (and No, it's not me)...but had it been me I wouldn't be explaining what or why my organization does/doesn't... says/doesn't say whatever it is that you are trying to be a smart alleck about by asking/saying all But you do see that members went to great pains to explain it. Makes you wonder if they have as much confidence in what they went through as they say they do

Oh, and news flash dear: Having talked to "one or two members of a black sorority/fraternity" does not give you any special authority to go around speaking upon BGLO issues!
Okay you have a point there. But I've also seen School Daze. Do I get any points for that?

Lastly, I have stated my opinions/thoughts/ideas as you have yours... in a careless, not-so-nice-manner...
Ouch! The last thing I want to be is not-so-nice

Have a pleasant evening.
You dont really mean that do you?

Ok, I was not going to respond to any of your ridiculous posts...but you leave me no choice. Actually, I had a good laugh with your last one...You may be a pompous ass, but you're a very funny one, I must say.

Anyway, to answer your questions...no you don't get brownie points for viewing School Daze...Sorry, but I just couldn't give that one to you.

Ooops! I hit the "submit" button by mistake... I will continue now

As for why I'm so outraged by your comments...I thought I explained it pretty accurately in my first post, but I understand... maybe I should break it down in simpler terms for you. (Sorry!)

Ok, your comments angered me because, unlike others responding to this particular subject, You seem to be the only one feeling the need to be as rude and personal as possible. Why are YOU so outraged? (Are you following along?) There's nothing wrong with giving your opinions, but must you do so in such a disrespectful manner? You seem to have some really good verbal skills...can't you just rely on them solely and leave the attitude out of it? Why don't you pause here and ponder on what I just said. ............................................Ok, that should have been long enough. Now look, Blonde1, I have to go back to work now. I really don't feel the need to go back and forth with you. I truly hate saying these not-so-nice things to you (or anyone for that matter) I use the words "not-so-nice" because I figured this is not the place or time to say what I REALLY want to say to you. It's hard, but I must refrain! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif
Anyway, once again...have a pleasant day.
And I do mean that, I don't want you going through life so unpleasant and nasty ALL the time! Take care my friend!

[This message has been edited by Sexy Mocha (edited August 30, 2000).]

I didnt intend to appear pompous. I'd been reading the other forums and these questions came to mind, so when given the chance-- this thread-- I asked them. Perhaps Im overstepping some boundaries but this is all good discussion and I generally feel that since a greek started this thread in a forum where non-greeks often pass through, they opened themselves to this kind of dialogue.

7A is irritating. For one there's just so much hypocrisy in what he posts. Also I think much of his attitude, one where he's automatically prepared to hate without looking at the entire picture, is too common not just among greeks who "pledged" but among alot of black people facing change period.

But it's nice that we can be so amicable even in the midst of exchanging different views.

Before someone happily jumps on my tail, I'll correct myself in referring to that ice cold brother I mentioned in the above post. I called him 7A, I should have referred to him as 7BA94.

Hey 1Blonde-

Don't worry about what other people say. You have every right to your opinion. People tend to get very defensive of their own ideas and cannot handle it when you express one that is different. I think it is great that you are having a discussion, but just from seeing prior discussions on this board, it might be better if you exchange email addresses and continue it that way. This topic has come up several times and it will never be resolved on the board. You should probably register yourself so other posters can email you. For some reason, people like you to be registered; I guess so they have your email address.

You have every right to your opinion, as does everyone else in the discussion. Don't be discouraged. As long as you truly believe in your opinion and can back up what you have to say, feel free to say it! And that goes for everyone! No one should be scared of being chastised because they expressed an opinion.

With that said, I really have no opinion on this whole "paper" topic. I just don't like to see people yelled at for what they say.

Have a great day! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

I must humbly ask 1Blonde to clarify the statement: Also I think much of his attitude, one where he's automatically prepared to hate without looking at the entire picture, is too common not just among greeks who "pledged" but among alot of black people facing change period.

I wasn't aware that it's common for us, black people, per se to hate without looking at the entire people due to a resistance to change. Generalizations, especially 'racial generalizations' are quite damaging.

I was really surprised that this topic got so many responses in a short period of time. You may ask why did I even post this question. The reason is that many people on this board seem to dance around this issue. When someone ask the question, "what will happen if I don't pledge" they are given unrealistic answers. Everyone says their organization doesn't haze. But we all know that if you don't pledge, you will be outcasted and its not pleasant at all. Yes it is important to work in your organization, but it is also meant to be fun.

I don't at all mind being "yelled" at. I know I can be aggressive. I expect it in return

Okay, I'll register. I don't really see a point to it, but if it will reassure others that a committment is being made to the community of posters, then fine.

As far as the other poster's question:
I wasn't aware that it's common for us, black people, per se to hate without looking at the entire people due to a resistance to change. Generalizations, especially 'racial generalizations' are quite damaging.

That's not exactly what I said. I said being automatically prepared to hate without looking at the entire picture, is too common not just among greeks who "pledged" but among alot of black people facing change period.

Note the "among alot of" is not an "in every case and all the time." This in fact is actually true for most groups of people. But since I am black and I am linking Black Greeks with the larger community I phrased it specifically that way.

Some examples of this would be the political tension in LA between black and Latino leaders. Several black leaders are unwilling to make their stances more inclusive given the large numbers of brown immigrants that now live in their communities. There's often animosity between black Americans and black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean in several major cities. Both of these examples are based on people, black people, ready to hate( and I mean hate more so in the hip-hop culture definition than Webster's) than accept change or see that the bigger picture ( which in both cases is pooling power and resources to get a bigger sliver of the pie altogether instead of infighting over scant resources)