Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500245.stm wrote:

paradox of logic?
If she is is not mature enough to decide on a medical procedure, how could she be mature enough to make the medical decision to keep it?

Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

Because she does not have to keep it. She can give it up for adoption, she can have someone else take care of it and when she's mature, she may be able to decide to "keep" it.

-Rudey
--They should arrest the boyfriend

Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

keep it as in full-term pregnancy- or do they do adoptions and transfer the fetus to a new womb?

I thought once a female becomes pregnant she is considered an adult? Or maybe I misread that somewhere. If she's grown enough to have sex she's grown enough to decide what to do with the baby.

Re: Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

Full-term pregnancy.

-Rudey
--But I'm sure you assumed that sonny.

Since when has being too immature to make the decision to have sex stopped kids from having sex anyway?

All of it is interesting indeed in light of the US Supreme Court's recent decision that the death penalty can't be imposed on someone under 18 because a 17-year-old is too young to understand the implications of his actions when he kills someone. Too young and immature to understand the implications of killing someone but not to young and immature to understand the risks of having sex or to decide what to do about the unwanted pregnancy that results?

I'm kinda confused. I don't think you have to be mature to have sex. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to stick a penis in a vagina. But there is a certain maturity that is needed to deal with the consequences. I'm pretttty sure that this girl knew that babies come from sex. Just like kids know when they pull triggers that people will seriously, if not fatally, injured.

That was my point exactly. Just because someone is "old enough" to decide to have sex doesn't mean she can make a mature decision on how to deal with the consequences.

Oh okay! we are >>>>here<<<<:)

I wonder how the abortion laws are written in FL. I know that in my homestate (MI), someone under the age of 18 must either have parental consent or go before a judge to get their consent, if they don't want to inform their parents.

Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

quote:
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A pregnant 13-year-old girl in Florida has been told she cannot have an abortion because she lacks the maturity to make such a decision.

A state court granted an injunction which prevents the girl from terminating her pregnancy.

She is three months pregnant and had planned to have an abortion on Tuesday of this week.

The American Civil Liberties Union says it will launch an urgent appeal against the ruling.

'Too young to chose'

Florida's department of children and families intervened and took the matter to court, arguing the teenager, who is under the care of the state, is too young and immature to make an informed medical decision. Judge Ronald Alvarez in Palm Beach accepted that argument and has granted a temporary injunction and psychological evaluation, which effectively blocks her from terminating the pregnancy.

It is a case which, once again, plays into the heated and divisive debate about abortion in America.

The judge's ruling comes in spite of Florida state law which specifically does not require a minor to seek parental consent before an abortion.

Its executive director in Florida, Howard Simon, said forcing a 13-year-old to carry on an unwanted pregnancy to term, against her wishes, is not only illegal and unconstitutional, it is cruel.
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I think the most salient point of this is "Florida's department of children and families intervened and took the matter to court, arguing the teenager, who is under the care of the state, " She is a ward of the court...making FL operating in the place of her parent.

Of course they are going to deny her right/ability to terminate this pregnancy. Consider their track record on "culture of life" issues..... Pregnancy on a 13 year old body is VERY HARD. Increase in complications, increase in birth defects, delivering a baby is hard work! and her body is still years from being mature.

After the child delivers her child..what then? The state will still be operating as her parent...will they force her to keep it, put it in state care or adoption. Does she even have any say in this at all? Where is her Guardian ad litem...she is definitely a child in need of a court appointed special advocate, cause perhaps the FL dhs is not really as objective as they should be here.

...so if a five year old is 'old enough' to have sex, she is old enough to deal with the consequences?

That is faulty logic if I ever heard it.

What's faulty is you taking my comment and running waaaaay to left field with it. I'm talking about this 13yr old in particular. Thanks.

Ha!

Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

A> Florida law does not require minors to have parental consent for abortion.
B>URL
C> The Morality Police of Tallahassee suck balls. I hope twice as many hurricanes hit them this year.

Wow, do realize that the consequence for a 5 year old having sex is pain not conception. 5 year old female bodies are not equipped to conceive. And, I personally don’t know of a 5 year old girl who has ever actually chosen to have sex..

So, who has the faulty logic.

Re: Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

Now that's a real mature approach to take; unfortunately I'm not surprised.

No matter how you feel on abortion.... if the state of Florida does not require parental consent then how can they legally stop this girl from terminating her pregnancy?

This has always bothered me (forcing someone to have a child they do not want). This young girl will have to have some sort of prenatal care, deal with adoption agencies or try to figure out a way to support a baby. She will have huge hospital bills just to deliver the baby. She is thirteen years old, how is she supposed to pay for any of this? She states herself that she is only thirteen and living in a shelter. Where I live you can't even get a job until you are fourteen and then the options are limited. Also, isn't it endangering HER health to have a baby at the age of thirteen. What about the mother's welfare?

And where are all of these concerned persons when the baby is born and this child (she is only 13 after all) is trying to support another human life. It seems evident that she cannot take care of herself....... this is cruel and inhuman to the baby and mother more than an abortion would be, in my humble opinion

How do we know that the 13 year old did choose to have sex?

Maybe she wasn't raped, but there could have been coersion, or it was neccessary to survive?

No matter what, it's still statutory rape, so apparently the state doesn't think that she's old enough to be having sex.

I personally think that making her carry it to term is cruel and unusual punishment for both the 13 year old and the baby, who will also be a ward of the state.

It's not about conception-it's about maturity and neither a 5 year old nor a 13 year old is mature enough to make those decisions. Being able to have sex or get pregnant doesn't mean you are an adult.

Where is your proof that the 13-year-old is not mature enough to make this decision? She sounded mature enough to me in the quotes from the article. She's clearly old enough to decide what she wants, arrange an appointment and transportation, and to argue the case for why she wants an abortion (all of which a 5-year-old would not be able to do).

I have major qualms about bringing a child that is so clearly unwanted into the world, especially since it will be born to a girl that's so young (which often leads to health complications in either the baby or the mother -- and health complications for the baby will hurt its chances for adoption).

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/03/na...rtner=homepage

Florida Drops Effort to Block Abortion for 13-Year-Old
By ABBY GOODNOUGH

Published: May 3, 2005


MIAMI, May 2 - The state of Florida abandoned today its efforts to keep a pregnant 13-year-old girl from having an abortion, a day after a circuit court judge ruled that the teenager, who is in state custody, had a right to end her pregnancy.

"There will be no further appeals and we will respectfully comply with the court's decision," Marilyn Munoz, a district manager for the state's Department of Children and Families, said in a written statement, according to The Associated Press.

The judge, Ronald Alvarez of Palm Beach County Circuit Court, who temporarily blocked the abortion last week, ruled on Monday that the girl was competent to make decisions regarding her pregnancy and had the right to do so under the state's Constitution.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

You owe them an apology.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

Because he's gay he feels "bitter" and because he feels "bitter" he feels he can make these kinds of statements.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

Why? They went to court the first time to stop her access to terminating the pregancy. It was only after the court changed its opinion on appeal that the state is backing down.

They get no apology.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Florida courts, abortion rights of 13yo
 

Because you were wrong. They didn't deny her anything. She is getting an abortion.

-Rudey

5 year old girls don't even menstruate. So that comment is not faulty just full of ignorance.

Does that baby deserve to be born knowing that its mom didn't want it, and that mom's 13, and that it's going to grow up in the system?

Why are people fighting for the right of this child to be born to a mother who neither wants it or is able to raise it? And, what happened to trying to fight teen pregnancy?

I think that this "culture of life" thing has gone waaaaay too far now...

Are you kidding me. Probably half the children born are a mistake or unwanted. I know that I'm the reason that my parents got married, and trust me I'm definitly happy that my parents went through with having me.

Fighting teen pregnancy isn't about giving abortions to teens that get pregnant. Ever hear of coming up with a solution-not just fixing the problem...?

The ignorance I see displayed is the fact that you ignore the argument and take something that isn't even important and disagree with that.

"...well, I'm not going to disagree with the actual logic, I'm just going to pick something out that's totally inane and say that person is wrong b/c of that"

I will disagree with your actual logic.

Paragraph one: "I'm definitely happy my parents went through with having me." If your parents hadn't had you, you wouldn't have known - you wouldn't have existed. You cannot state the corollary that you are sad your parent's didn't have you, because you would not know!

Paragraph 2: People are trying to find solutions. Unfortunately, this government frowns on anything but abstinence only sex ed. Look where that got us: Pregnant children.

You know I'm somewhere in the middle on the whole abortion issue, but I just wanted to argue with your logic :)

1) Not existing is akin to suicide if you're trying to find something similar. I can say I prefer to exist over suicide. We all try and find an anchor or foundation to base our thoughts off of - are you really happy if you don't know what suffering is? Now for the issue of not knowing something and still not wanting it, well I suppose many folks don't want to smoke crack even though they haven't done it before.

2) I thought pregnancy rates had gone down in the last couple decades. I'm not sure though.

-Rudey

OK, I'll give you points on 1.

http://plannedparenthood.org/pp2/por...y-teens-us.xml

There's some stats on pregnancy - teen prengnacy is down, but it's still way higher than the rest of the "civilized" world.

They are still down for our country. Perhaps men in Japan and France shoot blanks. Who knows?

-Rudey

I just want to chime in that these are almost certainly causation/correlation errors (shit, they're probably correlation errors by themselves), while we're discussing the logic of the thing.

-RC
--didn't get abstinence-only sex ed, thank god - although i probably know more about the (lack of) effectiveness of the Sponge than I really should

You are taking an entirely different approach. I was commenting on the fact that because a child is unwanted, does not mean that it will suffer from that. Many children are unwante-but that doesn't make them unhappy in life.

Abstinence only sex ed...? I remember as far back as fifth grade talking about sex ed and condoms and stds/pregnancy. Then again in middleschool and highschool. There is always going to be teenage pregnancy. Nothing is 100% effective, but stopping the problem is much preferable to the quick fix.

Are you saying that because unwanted children can have happy lives, abortion should not be legal?

Everybody say "YEA!!"
I decided to stay out of this one!!!!

I was too. However more recently, teachers have been focusing on abstinence. I saw a report on it a couple months ago on CBS. What I got out of the clip of the lesson was "this is a condom, it isn't perfect so don't have sex till you're married."

Granted teen pregnancies are down, I'd rather my future children have SOME knowledge about protection if they decide after high school to engage in sexual activity, rather then go in with the idea that it won't work or help so don't use it at all.

ETA: because "your" and "you're" aren't the same...

You just never know...
 

About the beginning of the year, our small Iowa community was aghast when two 7th graders were caught *in the act* AT SCHOOL during school hours!!! (In the locker room).

Now it comes to light, the young female in this incident is pregnant!!! BOTH young people are in 7th grade....13 years old!

Perhaps knowing HOW to prevent pregnancy, when abstinence isn't considered, is the better answer.

This is a little off topic...

First, I don't give credit to ANYTHING on CBS. Not to be an ass, but if you had an ounce of sense, you wouldn't either.

Secondly, there would always be those that fell through the cracks, but they are not the ones by which to judge the entire system.