Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

An Asian student confesses -- 'we work harder'
Larry Elder

April 21, 2005


Why do students from some racial or ethnic groups outperform students from other racial or ethnic groups?

_Don't bother raising that question at California's Alhambra High School, where Asians make up 54 percent of the population and Latinos 38 percent. On the school's 2004 STAR Test, which measures student proficiency, Asian students' scores in English Language Arts for the 11th grade are 44 percent, with Latinos scoring 26 percent. In Mathematics, Asians in Algebra I scored 49 percent, and Latinos 12 percent. In Algebra II, Asians scored 55 percent, with Latinos at 19 percent. For Geometry, Asians scored 51 percent, and Latinos 11 percent.

_Robin Zhou, a senior, wrote a school newspaper column called "Latinos Lag Behind in Academics." Zhou asked, "So why are our Advanced Placement classes 90 percent Asian? Two factors contribute significantly that influence students' academic progress from the first year of school. The first is cultural: many Asian parents, especially recent immigrants, push their children to move toward academic success, while Hispanic parents are well-meaning but less active. Since kids are concerned mainly with the present, little parental involvement often means they fail to realize that school is not an end in itself but a bridge to better things.

_ "Given that Asian students are often pushed harder and more consistently by their parents, it's not surprising that a performance gap already exists by middle school. . . . The second factor maintaining the performance gap appears around then, the deliberate segregation of previously uniform student bodies into white- and blue-collar castes."

_For respectfully pointing out the elephant in the room, Zhou received threats. Some students -- and at least one teacher -- called him racist! Never mind that Zhou carefully wrote the article to avoid offense. "Using past scores as a measure," he carefully wrote, "are Hispanic students not pulling their weight? The answer is clearly no. To deny that the Hispanic student population as a whole lags behind its Asian counterpart would be ignoring the cold statistical truth. Is this suggesting that brown people cannot think on the level of white and yellow people? Absolutely not. [Emphasis added.] But the difference is real, and it needs to be acknowledged and explained before it can be erased."

_Consider the plight of Scott Phelps, a teacher at Muir High School in Pasadena, Calif., for 12 years. Phelps posted an e-mail in a school district chat room -- later distributing it to his fellow teachers -- discussing recent scores of the school's students on the Academic Performance Index. He committed the politically incorrect sin of wondering why low socio-economic African-American students, as a group, have historically scored lower on standardized tests, and why many seemed to lack academic focus. "If you look at their scores and track them over the years, you will see that they're horrible," said Phelps. "I'm not singling out a group. I'm not saying that low test scores are caused by low socio-economic students, I'm saying that low scores and low socio-economic students are directly related."

_Further, Phelps had the audacity to suggest that of the students who engage in disruptive behavior, black students are disproportionately involved. "Overwhelmingly," Phelps wrote, "the students whose behavior makes the hallways deafening, who yell out for the teacher and demand immediate attention in class, who cannot seem to stop chatting and are fascinated by each other and relationships but not with academics, in short, whose behavior saps the strength and energy of us that are at the front lines, are African American. . . . Eventually, someone in power will have the courage to say this publicly. . . . Class is something they do between passing periods, lunch or nutrition break, when they chase each other in the hallways, into classrooms, yelling at the top of their lungs."

_The resulting uproar got Phelps suspended. The school board reinstated him only after town hall meetings in which parents and even some black students and teachers demanded that the popular and widely respected teacher return.

_I have a friend who lives in mid-town Los Angeles. Years ago, he invited me to visit a small library at the corner of Olympic and Vermont, an area between the high-rises of downtown and Koreatown. It is about 70 percent Hispanic and 20 percent Asian. At around four-o'clock in the afternoon, outside the library, several Hispanic kids performed incredible tricks on their skateboards. They were jumping, spinning, twirling and showing off their considerable skills. My friend then said, "C'mon, Larry, let's go inside." Inside the library -- standing room only -- were Korean-American kids and their mothers. Not one Latino kid inside the library. Not one.

_The diversity/inclusion/multicultural crowd wants not only equal rights. They want equal results. But results require hard work, sacrifice and discipline. Either that, or a really good government program.

I love how Asians are STILL lumped in as a whole...

I'd venture to say that a lot of non-Asians would, say, group Filipinos in the same group of other Asians who "work harder" like Koreans, Chinese and Japanese, and comparing our cultures for similarities is often laughable.

I really don't know how to respond other than facts are facts, and test scores are test scores. But I'm not going to assume that blacks and hispanics are TOTALLY uninterested in the academic part in school.

Maybe Asians are just TOO involved. Amongst our age, suicide is highest amongst Asians....and that's greatly attributed to the pressure Asian parents place on their kids to succeed.

Since my mom never did that with me, and I come from a much poorer background, just the fact that I made it to college seems to be fine, probably cause she knows I want more than that anyway......

"I don't play the violin, I didn't get straight A's, I didnt fucking sleep with Woody Allen"
--Margaret Cho

Well you know, we are all monolithic.

It's usually a separation between Asian and pacific islander isn't it?

-Rudey

Asian kids are also likely to take more math and science courses, making it easier to have higher grades. It's pretty impossible to get 100% on an English test when you have to write a "well organized essay," but 100% is possible in advanced algebra.

Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

THIS is where all the attention needs to be paid.

Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

Any speculation to why this is? I'm curious.

uuhhhhhhhh......how does more asian people make it easier to get a high grade? if my class was predominantly asian, that doesn't have shit to do with how well i perform.

Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

In part, and I know there is some improvement, it is related to the out-of-wedlock births.

No father means no money, which means no books in the home, no quality family time if the mother is working, children raised by grandparents, etc.

It's also related to attitude: if you think your problems are caused by others - and your leaders continually reinforce that thought - you're not likely to get your butt to work and pull yourself up by the shoelaces.

"I am somebody" should be replaced by "I got a job"

Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

And don't forget that many of the parents of these kids didn't finish high school, and unless the child is highly motivated, it's very likely that he/she will fall into the same trap.

There are also factors like: lack of nutrition, lack of heat, frequent moves/transiency, increased stressors due to an unstable neighborhood, having to work to help contribute to the household budget (rather than to just buy the designer pair of shoes you want, which is less stressful), having to babysit younger kids in the family, or just do more things around the house that richer kids don't do because the families hire it out. Most people in higher socioeconomic status groups are well educated and therefore, place more value in education, have higher expectations, and assist more in the learning process.

I resent the working mom implications that were made. The women I work with ALL have highly intelligent kids who get very good grades, whether the women are married or not. And, all of our daughters are highly motivated to be well educated, go to good universities and have high career aspirations. Also, because we work, we aren't in a lower socio-economic situation.

Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

I agreed with the first part of what you said but,

this doesn't have a goddamned thing to do with it and if it does, maybe YOU should focus more on what the "so-called" leaders are SAYING and where they get their impressions from. The need for the statements like "I am somebody" come from the need to instill SOME kind of esteem in a bunch of young people who were born into a system and society that is F-ed up toward them through no fault of their own. Address THAT and don't worry about the flaws of the men behind the message.

Also, to assume that just because someone calls himself a leader does not make them so. They are SELF PROCLAIMED. If YOU want to make them out to be, that's you, but don't impose your sense of who is and who is not a leader onto folks you know NOTHING about.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

For better or worse, do these "leaders" not get TV stations to show up when they hold a press conference? One could possibly blame the media for helping these people to perpetuate the stereotype of hopelessness. Why is it that dissenters with these leaders are generally thought to be running against the grain of "the community"?

I think that the problems are largely cultural, but produced and perpetuated by socioeconomic factors more than anything else (or am I just stating the obvious?).

OK - but what role do these factors play? Are these causes, or effects of the same situation on the prior generation? And, yes, it can be both - that's definitely why the issue is difficult to address.

This is circular - essentially stating, "poor people are less educated than rich people because rich people are better educated" - I guess I'd like to see more specific application of the differences this causes, if you're relating it to cyclical divergence of upper/lower-class education.

While I will certainly agree that there is an element of negative cycle ("downward spiral") associated with the situation, I think the material issues are the root causes of the correlation between socioeconomic status and educational achievement, and how to address these issues. We need to examine causation, not correlation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

What culture would that be, kevin? Black culture? Poor culture? Immigrant culture?

How can you properly define a widespread problem using such a narrow definition as 'culture'?

don't forget the government-induced socio-economic gap from the 1950s Home Loans.

I am still waiting to see how it is that immigrant groups that have lower incomes, for example, Asians in NYC are able to do so well academically. It's not just about income and it's not about being an immigrant.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

If you start with the assumption that "society that is F-ed up toward them through no fault of their own", there's no place to go.

Immigrants come here, some paddling from Cuba in inner tubes, because they see our land of opportunity with streets paved with gold. A recent president of Coca-Cola arrived from Cuba 40 years ago with his wife and two suitcases and less than $100. There are numerous oriental restaurants - from one-person food counters to fancy places employing hundreds - founded and owned by immigrants.

On the other hand, the young people devoting their lives to music stars, $250 adidas sneakers, and pimping cars - and considering good grades "too white" - can say "I am somebody" all day and show up for all of Jesse's and Al's parades, but in the end have little except children without families and a bad attitude. If they make it to college, the males are likely to submit to the worst of "getting wood" as pledges.

The immigrant child - led down the road of good grades, and often working in their parents' business - can legitimately say "I am somebody who has good grades, a job, and a future."

I'm not about to go through this with you or anyone else. You have your views, as narrow and il-advised/informed as they are, and that's fine. However, I can say that the mere statements that you make show how little you really know about this country, its history and the social relations influenced by both.

Also, I don't understand why people say things like such and such a group came here and did this. I have said this over and over again, which is why I am not going to get too far off into this pointless discussion, Whatever group you want to compare to Af. Am or anyone else is NOT that group. They have a totally different background, history and experience. Every group is different and you cannot just sit there and act as if every non white group is exactly the same. I refuse to try to represent my entire group so thats the end of that but you really need to stop and ask yourself who you think YOU are to question and/or criticize an entire group of people who you obviously know nothing about. You sit in judgment of a group of individuals who have an experience and backgrounds totally different from anything you can even imagine so for you to criticize if rediculously pompous and all it does is recomfirm what I already know about folks like you.

This is also a TREMENDOUS cause of many of the problems that are present today. Once again "people like you" try to disregard the impact of policies that directly affected many of people for generations. As repulsive as these people you sit in judgment may be to you, you cannot disregard what is the obvious, or maybe not so obvious, root of a lot of the depression of a lot of people. You spend one day in the conditions these people live and lets see if you have all of that mouth and "superior" attitude that you have now.

Finally, these kids half way don't even know where Jesse and Al are coming from. THAT is not the problem. These kids deal with more stress brought on by the conditions that they live in than most average adults in this country. THAT is why they are very distracted. School and education for most of American history was for the privileged. People from all racial backgrounds have family history that includes that fact that due to the conditions that they lived in, family members were only able to get so much education and instead had to do what they could to help the family. They didn't have the luxury of sitting in a classroom reading literature and developing mathematical skills. They had to work or do whatever they could to make a meal. The difference is that throughout this country's history, the forced impediments to the advancement of BLACK people with relation to other groups caused the disproportionate numbers of how many people in the black community head this reality vs. those in the white community who had it. That is the TRUTH regardless of how you want to place the blame on the black people and their "culture".

I am done with this stupid topic. i am not going to waste anymore time trying to get through to someone who has no possibility of understanding where I'm coming from, let alone the kids or anyone else in our community is coming from. screw you.

Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

how ignorant.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

what young people are this? you continually parade your racist ideology throughout this board. at least you don't hide your own ignorance.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

How true, unfortunately.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by hoosier
On the other hand, the young people devoting their lives to music stars, $250 adidas sneakers, and pimping cars - and considering good grades "too white" - can say "I am somebody" all day and show up for all of Jesse's and Al's parades, but in the end have little except children without families and a bad attitude. If they make it to college, the males are likely to submit to the worst of "getting wood" as pledges.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you think music stars, sneakers, cars, bad grades, parades, children without families, bad attitude, and getting wood are not bad?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

you're a bigot. plain and simple. much like your thinly veiled racial insults.



but i'll be sure to ask B-Rad and the rest of the trailer trash about what they think of that problem.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

not quite, but for someone who views the world through a simple yet racist mindset....it wouldn't surprise me.

An article from Saturday's Toronto Star about kids in northern Ontario not getting the help they need to pass.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...2154&t=TS_Home

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

Let's discuss, let's debate.

Let's not call names and use the race card.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

discuss what? you're a racist.

a bigot complaining about the "race card."

you say this

and then complain about the "race card." nice try, bigot.

but if you want to discuss...what i'd like to discuss is how asians perform better on the SAT that whites.

or how a higher percentage of asian males and females have at least a bachelors degree than that of whites.

i'd also like to know what you think about how asian families have a higher median income to that of white families.

i don't think it could be because asians work harder, because the hardest workers when i was in college seemed to be the white folks who still performed at a lower level than i did. hmmmm......i wonder what ever could it be???

:confused: :confused:

lets get to the point of your posts. bringing up whatever menial and ridiculous point you were bringing up had no basis in this conversation. you've already shown us your bitter and deep seeded hatred for black people. it's old already.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

How come many people tend to grow defensive, take general comments personally and then lash out? Its a common pattern but makes discourse difficult.


Couldn't we be calm and stick to the issues?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

I'd hate to call it black culture or immigrant culture. That would be painting with a pretty broad brush.

How about the culture that many blacks are raised in verus the culture that many immigrants are raised in?

Of course, again, that's stateing what is insanely obvious. My girlfriend teaches band in an inner-city school. She observes that many of the children there come from families that place an extremely low level of importance upon a good education -- so much so that parents blame the teachers when their kids have behavioral issues in school -- please note that I did not mention race in the sharing of this information, I simply mean to point out that at least in this case, these kids from the inner-city families don't place a very high value on their education. In many cases, these parents simply see the teachers as babysitters that can take care of their kids while they watch afternoon television.

I realize that the above comes nowhere even close to a representative sample, and I failed to address what groups she says do better, however, I think it does address the fact that there is a home culture that exists in this country that prepares children for failure.

I don't know how this is borne out in statistics, but what starang21 is saying seems to be echoing what we already know. Asian kids do better than white kids on these standardized tests, and to continue with that comparison, blacks and hispanics do not fare as well as whites on these tests.

Hopefully, no one here would be brazen enough to suggest that eugenics could play any role here, and if it's not caused by the home culture of these kids, what else could it be?

I've noticed that most responses place a heavy emphasis on inner city kids, but rural kids often face the same problems. Inner city kids often get help and support from city based agencies but often, rural kids don't get the same benefits (see an earlier post for article from the Toronto Star) and sometimes score lower than kids from lower income urban areas.

Just a thought.

I am of the opinion that quite a bit of what Bill Cosby says is true.

At the same time, the right to an education is universal and benefits every class of peoples.

At the same time, to bring a class of people up to a higher education level, you need to spend more on them than you do than the upper brackets. This country has yet to do that.

-Rudey
--Responsibility for all is the only solution

At least around here, I consider many of the problems of the rural community to be self-imposed. In Oklahoma, our rural communities are responsible for our state having more than 500 school districts, many of which operate schools within 2-3 miles of eachother and have extremely small student populations, the inability to hire qualified teachers, the inability to staff the schools appropriately, etc. Despite that, their state representatives have really dug their heels in as far as redistricting for fear of losing their communitys' identities.

At least for my area, the rural areas seem to create their own problems where the inner-city issues seem to be frustratingly difficult to solve (and it's not for a lack of trying). My girlfriend, who teaches in an inner-city school was very idealistic at the beginning of the year, and by year's end she seems to be wondering how long she has to stay at this place before it's considered okay to put her resumé out.

Rudey -- how do you feel Bush's No Child Left Behind program will assist these children in at least being placed at a site where a decent education is available if they want it?

-- and honestly, I don't think that's the problem. From what I've observed, there are many kids that simply don't value education. I'm quicker to blame ignorant and uncaring parents than society (although in a sense, they're the same thing).

it's hard to have intelligent conversation when the first "general" comment is a bigoted and racist one. what's the point of having thought provoking conversation when the first comment cast already has very little thought behind it? what i find funny is when people make "general" (i.e. prejudiced) comments about a certain race of people, they complain about being called a racist.

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that's not really what i'm trying to say, however. i could care less what the breakdown of any of that is. it doesn't affect me, and i've never thought about how much better or smarter i was or thought i was over the white people in my class. i don't even think asian people really look to make comparisons in that manner. it's not that serious. i'll leave that to y'all (people who want to make comparisons on race to make themselves feel better...much akin to hoosier) . the point behind my post was to turn around his ignorance and bigotry and place it on him.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

i don't think it's racist at all...because asian people don't have the good ol boy system (i.e. white priviliedge) and can't oppress white people on the whole.

the reason behind that comment was to point out the ignorance and bigotry behind comments such as those already typed out in this thread that try to imply some sort of superiority or inferiority that a certain race has. people don't like it when it's them. for every person that wants to compare people who emulate rap stars, i can compare those who don't perform as well as asians.

no wants to comment on how racist hoosier is, but everyone want to call me a racist. i'm not racist, my best friend is black.

:cool:

famous words.....if it applies to you, remain offended.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian student confesses: 'we work harder'
 

Pacific islander and Asians are different. And within Asian, certain Asian nationalities do not do well in those statistics - mainly South East Asian.

In regards to the No Child Left Behind Act, a bipartisan act and not Bush's program btw, I think it does head in the right direction but that it is still not enough.

In regards to parents not placing enough emphasis on education, I believe that is a direct result of being uneducated themselves.

Even if someone's life goal is to clean pools, he deserves an education. That education will help him vote. That education will help him stay healthy. That education will benefit his children. That education benefits all and is really a right he/she deserves.

-Rudey

Since many libs and dems cannot logically and intelligently support their arguements and statements, they quickly resort to name calling (racist, bigot) and lash out.

It's nothing new.