Mormons won't stop baptizing dead Jews
 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...izing_the_dead

Jews, Mormons to Meet Over Baptisms

Thu Apr 7,10:35 PM ET

_U.S. National - AP

By MARK THIESSEN, Associated Press Writer

SALT LAKE CITY - Jewish leaders claim Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims, and will confront church leaders with a decade of frustration over what they call broken promises.

"We have proof, and we are bringing that," said Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.

The Mormon church has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in for the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for the dead to reach heaven. The church believes individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave.

Michel plans to show posthumous baptism records to church officials in meetings Sunday and Monday. He says the records prove tens of thousands of Jews, including some who died in Nazi concentration camps, were posthumously baptized over the past 10 years and as recently as last month.

A 1995 agreement signed by Jewish leaders and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints called for an immediate halt to unwanted proxy baptisms. After evidence was found in the church's massive International Genealogical Index that the baptisms for many Jews — including Anne Frank — continued, the two faiths reaffirmed the agreement in 2002.

Jewish leaders in New York have bitterly complained the baptisms never stopped, and last year asked Democratic Sen. Hillary Clinton to intervene. She met with Sen. Orrin Hatch (news, bio, voting record), an Utah Republican and active Mormon, though neither side would discuss what was said.

The church, too, declined comment Thursday. "The church won't be commenting at all on this issue for the moment. We are looking forward to discussions with our Jewish guests," spokeswoman Kim Farah said.

Under the Mormon practice, most Catholic popes have been proxy baptized, as have historical figures like Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Buddha, according to Helen Radkey, an independent genealogical researcher in Salt Lake City.

However, the church directed its members after 1995 to not include for baptism the names of Jewish Holocaust victims, celebrities and people who aren't relatives.

The church also assumes the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

Carol Skydell, also a researcher, said that didn't happen when her paternal grandparents and aunt and uncle apparently were given a baptism by proxy. She found their proxy baptism records in 2002.

"Nobody asked me, nobody asked my cousin. It's ridiculous," Skydell said.

-Rudey

i'm sure that this doesn't encompass/represent everybody from that particular religious orientation...

but for the ones that it does... uhhhhhhhhhh freaks!

how do people think up of this shit...

marissa

Thats the most bizarre thing I've read in awhile..Rudey while you're still in La Jolla perhaps you should swing by the Moron church in SD and get baptized. ;)

There's a Mormon church here?? I've never seen so many divorcees running around in the bars. lol

-Rudey

YOU'RE DOWN HERE???????????

How can you not see the cult temple? It's visible a mile away from the highway.

As someone who is seriously into genealogy, I've seen several of my ancestors "sealed" as Mormons. It's their thing, and if you don't believe in Mormonism, you shouldn't take it seriously.

The first time I saw it, I was like, WTH? But then I realized that, while the person who did it was very happy with his- or herself, I could care less. After all, I don't think they're gods of their own planets now, either - and I appreciate the use of their records.

That's incredibly disrespectful. It reminds me of those pro-life freaks in Boulder who were having funerals for abortions.

http://www.brady.com/ProjectsSD/imag...leSanDiego.jpg

There's one in Glenview, Illinois too.

http://www.nephi.com/temples/images/.../Chicago15.jpg

I find that incredibly disrespectful and close-minded (the topic of the article I mean). I can't imagine how my descendents would feel to find out that after who knows how many generations of being Serbian Orthodox, we were suddenly changed to a completely other religion. It's like re-writing history.

I felt the same way, the first time I saw that my ggggggggrandparents' marriage was "sealed" - incredibly angry and ready to call them unspeakable names. But I realized that I would have to believe that what they did made even a little bit of sense. They were married prior to the birth of Joseph Smith, for heaven's sake! If they even know about it, I'm sure they're laughing about it.

how do you baptize a dead person by proxy? Isn't this something you need to be alive to do. So I guess this sect of mormons believes non-mormons sit in pergatory until they get a record here on earth stating they've been baptized... g'head and baptize the planet, friggin' morons, er mormons, whatever.


RUgreek

It's not "this sect of Mormons." Baptism of the dead is a standard LDS belief and practice -- it's why they keep such meticulous geneological records.

The gist of it is this -- Mormons don't believe in hell as such, just different levels of heaven. To get into the higher levels, one must accept the Gospel (as understood by the LDS) -- to get into the highest level (the Celestial Kingdom), one must have participated in the various Temple rites, including baptism. One can accept the Gospel after death, but one can't participate in the Temple rituals after death. So, live proxies can do the rituals for the dead -- not just baptism, but other Temple rituals such as sealing of marriages for eternity. The performance of the ritual by the proxy, however, is only effective to the extent that the deceased accepts it "on the other side."

Ms. MysticCat and I have some Mormon cousins, and we know that our whole family is on a "list" to be taken care of after our deaths. We just laugh among ourselves about it. I can see how this practice would be particularly distressing to Jews, however, given the history of forced baptisms.

I guess I learn something new every day. My point is, even though I am not very religious, is to do unto others as you would like them to do unto you-namely, how would Mormons feel if all of a sudden its in my Orthodox sect's tradition to rebaptize them? Would it be an all-out battle for who can re-baptize the most people?
I don't like it when people manipulate their religion as a means to an end, if I'm saying this correctly. It reminds me of when my grandmother was so ill she couldn't leave the house and these ladies used to come over all the time and talk to her, and kept her company, which we thought was nice, because my sister and I would be in school, and my grandfather at work. It turns out they were Jehova's Witnesses and wanted to convert her, and when she explained to them she was atheist, they never came back again.

I completely agree. I have taken many religion course (almost had a minor in it) and I have to admit that I'm completely apalled that the Morman church would do this.

I'm not even Jewish and I find what their doing a complete slap in the face to the religion (Judiasm). To me (and this is my personal opinion) it's like saying "as a Jew, I'm sorry you're not good enough to make it to Heaven, let me baptize you as a Morman and then your good enough."

I don't blame the Jewish community for being up in arms over this one bit.

I personally feel the Morman church went to far by doing this.

Exactly. If religion is a belief system, you can't be converted to a different belief simply by being baptised beyond your control. You have to change your beliefs. If you still don't believe Mormonism makes sense, you're not a Mormon. Objecting to this practice only lends creedence to their bizarre beliefs -- you're putting stock in it.

While I think that what the LDS church is doing here is wrong, I don't think it's worth getting upset about. If you're Jewish, you're Jewish. A baptism by proxy isn't going to change that . . . unless the Mormons are right. ;)

Thanks for letting us decide what we can be upset about.

-Rudey

You can feel free to get upset over whatever you want. I just don't see the point.

Thank you for posting that you didn't see the point.

-Rudey
--I'm sure many Jews do care since they did protest it however.

According to this website:

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/lhm1097a.htm

Prior to 1978, Mormon Church leaders taught that blacks were cursed by God and inferior to whites. Because of this they could not hold the priesthood, participate in the sacred temple ceremonies, or be married for eternity in a Mormon Temple. Since a temple marriage is required for anyone to live in God's presence, it was very difficult for LDS blacks to understand why they would be banned from the temple.

I think the point is that they are being crass and ignorant, while being arrogantly disrespectful of another faith - they are purposely ignoring the a previous agreement that they made to not perform these "baptisims"; and more importantly they are disrespecting another religion...

I don't blame Rudey or any other Jew for being upset at these jackasses - just as I would be if they were going around poshumously 'converting' Catholics...

I believe they are -- it's my understanding that they posthumously "convert" everyone.

Clearly, coming from a non-religious perspective, I don't put a lot of stock in religious rituals -- so to me, this is the equivalent of, say, GeekyPenguin telling me I'm Catholic. I'm not Catholic, her telling me I'm Catholic can't make me Catholic, and she's not forcing me to act like I am Catholic, so why should I care? It's not in good taste on her part, but it doesn't affect me in the slightest unless I actually believe she's right.

I don't mean to upset anyone here who might be LDS, but the Mormon church is screwed up in so many ways that it's really impossible for me to take them seriously, and I don't see how anybody else can.

As someone who is engaged to marry a Mormon this December, let me add that I have already let it be known to his family as well as mine that should I die, there is no way I would wish to be re-baptized into any church. I was baptized Catholic & have no plans to stray. I am also making it a point to put this in writing with my living will as well as my will if and when I go. That way, my children and their children will know that I absolutely do NOT want to be re-baptized.

my leg fell asleep reading this...are they going to baptize my leg?

Have you ever had that sensation that you really should just shake your head, and ignore a thread, but you just have to respond?

Ladies and Gentlemen of GreekChat, the members of the LDS church (Mormons) baptize EVERYONE whose records they find! Not just those who are Jewish, or Muslim, or Black, or Hispanic - ALL of them. To them, they are simply fulfilling the requirements of their faith - and this has been going on for over a hundred years.

Look at it this way: I'm doing some genealogical research, and find your ancestor, and I decide that, instead of being from America, I go through some ceremony and "recreate" your ancestor as a Tibetan. Does that make your ancestor a Tibetan? No. Does it affect your ancestor at all? No. Assuming that you are secure in your own faith, does it really, truly mean diddly-squat? No.

Yes, it's somewhat irritating - but so are half the posts on GreekChat!

While you see it from a non-religious perspective there are those of us that cannot divorce our faith from our religious convictions.

Many people here on GC find the concept of being told what and how to think or believe repelent - and rightly so. These pathetic tools are challenging/robbing/ignoring/disrespectring Jews (and others) of both their historical and religious beliefs... all in the name of a arrogant disregard for others and their beliefs - it passes beyond "good taste" and becomes insulting to a faith belief system...

It saddens me that these "people" have taken it upon themselves to assume that they are the final arbitor of what is the correct faith - and then force that belief upon others, in life and in death... this even surpases the decidely criminal actions of my own Church (Catholic) during the Crusades - at least the Catholic Church allowed the dead to remain true to their faith. These assholes haven't even afforded the dead that....

Now to put this in context - if they are determined to "baptize" Jews who have died... does that mean that they are "baptizing" Jews that died during the Holocaust? I'd hope that no one thinks that that is even remotelt acceptable - even a proxy baptisim insults the faith of those that died for their faith and those that died as firm believers.

Personally I'm looking into this here in Canada - if the Mormons are participating in this reprehensible act I will be more than happy to lend my voice to those advocating that the 'church' be charge for violating the tenents, if not the legality, of the freedom and respect of religious freedom here.

The timing on this is really strange, for me. My (Mormon) boyfriend and I were talking this weekend, and he told me that he participated in a proxy baptism, and I just didn't understand it at the time. Being Jewish and reading this now really bothers me. Like I said, strange timing.

I guess to me (and this is strictly my feelings) it's like they are trying to push their faith on these people. And no matter what religion I don't agree with that. To me it shouldn't be a requirement of one faith to push (baptize w/out consent) their faith on another (dead) person and quite possibly their family.

Again this is just my opinion and people are more than welcome to disagree with me.

Thanks ASUADPi. I'm horrible at explaining things, but what you said is exactly how I feel about it.

Yes. It was the Jewish community learning that proxy baptisms were being performed "for" victims of the Holocaust that lead to this dispute to begin with and to the agreement that apparently is now not being honored.

I'm sure you'll find that they do it in Canada, too. It's a religious obligation for observant Mormons. Which means that by seeking to have them "charged" for violating religious freedoms, one would have to violate their religious freedoms.

And while I'll agree that, particularly as regards some groups, such as the Jews, this particular practice is beyond insensitive, I simply don't see a basis for charges that the practice violates any non-Mormon's religious freedom. As has been said before, unless you believe that what they are doing has some effect -- which I think only an observant Mormon would believe -- it's a meaningless act.

Proxy baptism doesn't "force" anything, even if the Mormon understanding of it is accepted. Again, the Mormon belief is that the dead person must both accept the Gospel (as understood by the LDS) and be baptised in order to enter to "higher" levels of paradise. Proxy baptism satisfies the second requirement but not the first. So if Observant Mormon undergoes a proxy baptism for John Doe, who has been dead for 20 years, but John Doe, "on the other side," still does not "accept the Gospel," the proxy baptism alone has not done anything. Even under Mormon theology, the choice is still up to John Doe -- it's just that the fact that he was not baptised (according to Mormon rites) while on Earth is not an impediment should John Doe, after death, choose to "accept the Gospel." On the other hand, should John Doe "accept the Gospel" after death, that alone will not do him any good until a proxy baptism is performed for him.

This might sound like a really dumb question, but if they know what you just stated, why do they waste their time proxy baptizing people?

If they are baptizing the Jews who died in the Holocaust, one should expect that these people "on the other side" are not going the accept the gospel of any other religion. And I say this because thousands of Jews did convert at the true beginning of the Holocaust (this is prior to the move to the Ghettos and Death/Concentration camps, this is when the persecution was just starting). They knew that it was "easier" for them to move to a city where no one knew they were Jewish, convert, and then secretly pratice their Judiasm beliefs in private. With that said, there are the MILLIONS who refused to give up their beliefs and faith because that is who they were.

If these people were refusing to give up their beliefs and faith prior to the Holocaust and their untimely death, it seems quite arrogant of the Mormans to assume that they will suddenly "convert" in death. IMPO.

I'm not sure I'm making sense, I'm just trying to pull the historical context out.

As I usually say in highly contraversial situations; agree with me, disagree with me, please just respect my opinion.

I know some people have said not to let it bother them...but think about this point. I'm assuming that when these people are proxy baptized it is recorded somewhere in Mormon records. If this is seen by others, it makes it look like your ancestors supported or believed something they did not.

Imagine if a university did "proxy graduations" and all your life you knew your grandpa had gone to Harvard, only to see his name on an alum roster for DeVry (LOL). That ties his name with something he has no connection with, and peoples' names are still very important possessions.

You shouldn't be able to use someone's name to support something without their permission or their family's permission.

Looking at it from a Mormon point of view, once the person has died, they would realize what the afterlife is really like and would see that, if they want to ascend to the higher levels of the afterlife, they must respond favorably to the preaching of the Gospel that they will encounter in the afterlife.

FWIW, a quick overview of the afterlife as understood by Mormons:

After death, believers go to Paradise, unbelievers to Spirit Prison. Missionaries will leave Paradise to preach the Gospel in Spirit Prison. If the people in Spirit Prison respond positively to this preaching and repent of their sins, they can go to Paradise as Mormons if a proxy has been baptised for them.

At the end of the world, those who rebelled against Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal life (according to Mormon belief, everyone was a pre-mortal spirit child prior to birth) will be "cast out" and everyone else will progress to one of three levels of glory:

-- The Telestial Kingdom is for those who lived spiritually average lives (or worse). The Telestial Kingdom will be better than Earth, but not as good as the other two kingdoms.

-- The Terrestrial Kingdom is for virtuous unbelievers, as well as Mormons who "know the truth" but haven't lived it.

-- The Celestial Kingdom is for good and faithful Mormons. This Kingdom also has three levels; those in the highest level, whose marriages must have been "sealed" in a Mormon Temple (Temple Marriages can also be sealed by proxy), will be joined by their families and can beget their own spirit children and organize their own worlds, of which they will be gods.

And just for the record: I don't believe it, I'm just trying to explain it.

Although I don't know for sure, my guess is that such records are only kept at the Temples. Since only Mormons in good standing can enter a Temple, the risk of "outsiders" seeing them would seem small. I'm sure it would also indicate that it was a proxy baptism, which would make clear that the person didn't do it him- or herself.

ETA: The article at the head of the thread makes references to a record or a proxy baptism being found, so perhaps they are not kept at the Temple only, but that reference also would suggest that it is clear that it was a proxy baptism.

33girl just explained my other problem with this, giving the example of proxy graduations...

for instance, what if somewhere down the line, the only records of people are Mormon records, and it would show me as being a Mormon, and I am not? re-writing history=not rock n roll....

It's time for Congress to act on this matter. They should do something like this:

Legislation Details

:109

State: Federal
Bill Number: S.121
Sponsor: Sen. Choy (D-AK)
Last sponsor date: Apr. 08, 2005

Official Title as Introduced: "To ensure that the right of an individual to move on to the hereafter according to his or her own religious belifs or lack thereof free from the intervention of misguided religious zealots."

Summary
4/4/2005--Introduced. Freedom from Tortious Baptism Act of 2005 - States that a deceased person who is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, Baha'i, Sikh, Atheist, Pagan, Agnostic, Scientologist, Religiously Confused or Otherwise Undecided, Jain, or any other faith or lack of faith other than Mormon, may be free from unauthorized post-death baptism by Mormons. States that nothing in this act shall be considered to permit any Mormon to baptize anyone living or deceased who has not expressly consented to be so baptized or in any manner that is inconsistent with: (1) Federal law or any rule or custom pertaining to the proper procedures for consensual baptism; or (2) any reasonable restrictions promulgated by individual states pertaining to the time, place, or manner of conducting consensual baptism on willing adults or children with the consent of said children's parents. Prohibits sale or disclosure of death records by an individual or institution to a non-relative of the deceased who does not have a viable non-baptismal interest in said records. Prohibits a hospital, funeral home, mortuary or other institution from releasing personally identifiable information to unrelated Mormons. Amends the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act to make limitations on the transferability and to increase confidentiality of death records and information related to the deceased's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Sets forth a scheme for awarding compensatory and punitive damages as a result of a tortious baptism performed on a deceased family member.

Sponsor/Co-sponsor(s) 48

Apr. 09, 2005 Referred to the Senate Committee of the Judiciary.

I am not about to sell out my people for the lousy ability to do a genealogical search. In fact if I wanted to do such research, Jewish records are pretty well kept in modern history (they had to be as a result of the holocaust).

I don't want my records even looked at by these nut jobs. They have a right to practice their faith but I have a right to privacy concerning my records including birth certificates and the right not to be stalked into the after-life.

There is also a big difference between what is legal and what is moral. Quite a few business scandals were legal but not moral and the courts still stepped in. The current crisis with AIG insurance group comes to mind. I'm sure that side-stepping the legal and moral is a norm given their desire for polygamy in this country with extremely under-aged minors and it isn't going to stop when it comes to baptizing Jews.

-Rudey

Hey tabloid papers create fake news and history all the time and are sued.

-Rudey

You would have to be seriously into genealogy, and using LDS forms in order for you to know if your ancestor was "sealed" or not. There's usually an X in the one box to signify that a birth or marriage has been sealed.

And I do agree that the family should be asked first, but let me ask this: we're talking about records from the 1600's and earlier in many cases. What family are you going to contact?

Spirit Prison sounds like it should be a song by Warrant or Britny Fox.