What is Kappa Kappa Psi?
 

I was with some of my bruhs at a club down in New Orleans and we ran into some guys from Kappa Kappa Psi. They stepped had brands and had a sign. I went to visit a friend in Ohio and met another gentleman from Kappa Kappa Psi. He said he never heard of branding, stepping, or anything of that nature. Are there two Kappa Kappa Psi's or is it different in regions??? Someone please enlighten me.

Kappa Kappa Psi is an honorary band fraternity. They are not historically African-American. Some chapters on HBCU campuses adopt calls and hand signs.

Tau Beta Sigma is the honorary band sorority affiliated with KKPsi.For more information on these organizations, visit http://kkytbs.org

Kappa Alpha Psi is a fraternity affiliated with the National Pan-hellenic Council.

[This message has been edited by PnguinTrax (edited October 06, 2000).]

KKPsi is a national marching band fraternity.
And as it is with different GLO's, different regions do certain things. I've met members of KKPsi from Louisiana and they have been in several step shows and they do very well.

Thanks for the knowledge!

supafly,
are you a member of kkpsi? if so, maybe you should review your mc book and preamble cause kkpsi is a national honorary band fraternity, not marching band frat! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

...like previously mentioned KKPsi is the National Honorary Band Frat. Stepping and signs vary in popularity regionally. Being a bro from the Zeta Chi chapter at the University of South Carolina, this puts us in the south(southeastern district) where it is VERY popular. Almost the majority of the chapters step(or try to) down here, no matter racial or sex makeup...I guess it's just were you are that determines the influence.

GO COCKS!!

APO is similar
 

Alpha Phi Omega is similar to KKPsi in that our traditions are also regional. . .however, we're a service fraternity. I think technically, according to Baird's manual, we are both in the same category of "Recognition Fraternities". Somebody let me know if I'm wrong on that.

I've been very familiar with Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma for a very long time. It wasn't until former President Clinton's inaugaration that I learned that both orgs were co-ed. I was shocked:eek: Can someone explain to me how this works. Most HBCU chapters I know of are all male (KKPsi) and all female (TBS)

In Greekdom,

hmm... you DO learn something new everyday

*snicker* :)

Hi, i am in Tau Beta Sigma, the sister organization to Kappa Kappa Psi. I would allow a Brother to post the distinction between the two orgs, but it seems that none of them frequent GC.

Kappa Kappa Psi is a National Honorary Band Fraternity. Being an organization which serves the band, university department of music, and the community of music at large. the webpage for our national headquarters is http://www.kkytbs.org

Someone asked about the org being coed. Since the nature of membership is honorary we are obligated under Title IX to extend membership to qualified persons regardless of gender. So you may see a man in Tau Beta Sigma or a woman in Kappa Kappa Psi. please don't confuse my statement about extending membership - this doesn't mean that everyone who wants in gets in, but we are not social orgs that can limit membership to a single sex.

You also pointed out that some members have brands, step, do a call and have hand signs. It's all in brotherly (and sisterly) love. Some chapters have a rich tradition of stepping, others don't...

And being an honorary fraternity allows members of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma to pursue membership in NPC/NPHC orgs as well. You may have a person in Kappa Kappa Psi and Kappa Alpha Psi (or any other org, you get the picture). it happens.

And as far as it being a "marching band" frat - that is not the case. Some universities do not have marching band but they still have Kappa Kappa Psi and/or Tau Beta Sigma. we are of service to the Director of Music at the university.

Hope this info helps.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. My fraternity, Alpha Phi Omega is very similar to Kappa Kappa Psi except we are a National Service Fraternity. We have all male chapters and co-ed chapters. We step, have calls and handsigns as well.

I have lots of friends whom are members of TBS and KKPsi. I think both are wonderful organizations.

In Greekdom

To bro_strawter
 

Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma are two DIFFERENT organizations working for the same cause. so, yes, we have different hand signs. I'm also a soror of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, INC. our brother organization, Phi Beta Sigma has a different sign from us as well. I personally think that the co-ed chapters confuse a lot of people because they start getting the organizations mixed up. I go to a school that is not HBCU, and we disapprove of the co-ed "stuff." I think the only times they should be co-ed is when the school does not have both organizations...only TBS or KKY.

p.s. back on the hand sign thing....KKY and Phi Beta Sigma signs are VERY similar....some people can't tell the difference!!

Co-Ed KKY & TBS
 

Just to Reply to the previous response,
I'm in the Alpha Chi Chapter of Tau Beta Sigma at Northern Arizona University. Recently our chapter of TBS has be become co-ed for the first time and it was only last year that our brother chapter put through it's first female member in KKY. I feel that know matter what your sex you can be in either organization and it not be a problem. True many chapters have never been co-ed but there is nothing wrong with a little change. It's nice having a male perspective on things and he gives us new insites that we might not have thought about before.

ITB,
DramaQueenAX
Joint Treas.
AX Sec/Treas.

I would like put out a reminder that the handsign can vary from different regions because it isn't OFFICIAL. I know of brothers in the South(Louisiana) Area that throw up a sign that can be described as very similar to the (Folk Nation) handsign and no they aren't in that gang. That's just a little info for you noggin.

in response to co'ed chapters.

I am a female brother of KKPsi , the Iota Kappa chapter. It is true that Boise State does not have a TBS chapter, but if we did... I personally would still be a brother of KKPsi. One of few distinguishable differences between the two organizaitons is that Tau Beta Sigma "promotes women in the band" versus Kappa Kappa Psi which "promotes members of the band" this isn't any sort of crack on TBS and the written language doesn't effect their ability to serve in ANY manner. I am just a stickler for words and it is my political take to be against many things categorized as womens right's.

TBS and KKPsi are very very closely related. In fact the Alpha chapter of each are located at the same school. THere is a very interesting story behind the formation of TBS, but to sum it up, KKPsi was not opposed to being a co'ed frat at any point to my knowledge. Originally there wasn't an alternative for women.

My opinion.....
 

my opinion is that if the founding fathers wanted to send a clear message about women being in the frat......they would've had at least one women founder (I mean, i know there had to be at least ONE female member in the band).....THEY wouldn't call themselves fathers.........WE wouldn't be called brothers.......and THIS wouldn't be a brotherhood!!!

Now that's my 2 cents.....

Stephen I.
Kappa Kappa Psi/Epsilon Theta
Fall 2K2 #1
"Psi-chotic" Double Psi-ded

At the same time you gotta think about the change over time. Progression doesn't stop and it can only get slowed down. It was inevitable that women would be allowed into the fraternity.

Personally I've played what if games about the founding fathers. Back in the day what would have gone through their minds if they knew a non white male was in the fraternity? I often wonder beyond the Guide to Membership hand book what they really were as people in terms of equality and racism.

What is a musician?
 

I have no doubt that our fathers knew that other races would soon be initiated into our frat....You can tell by the oaths and charges that we take in our rituals....I mean, how can you say what an outstanding musician looks like. An outstanding musician has no face.....no matter what race or gender.......BUT TBS was created in light of KKPsi to do basically the same things under the understanding of SISTERHOOD. I know that this is the era of Title IX's and women's independence, but the Bible speaks of women as "the weaker vessel.." This doesn't mean spiritually, because your spirit has no limitations on how strong it can be. I know many women that are much closer to God than men. This text is obviously referring to the physical limitations that a woman has, in respect to that of a man. To me, women that join KKPsi instead of the ajoining TBS chapter at their school, are basically slapping Wava Banes in the face.....

What, by being strong enough of a woman to make their own choice as to what organization they were in. I doubt very seriously if Wava would give a flying-squirrels-ass as to what choice a particular person makes. In fact if Wava felt that way then she'd be slapping herself with 4ton block of shit, because TBS was started to give women the chance to make their own choices in the realm of the band, when bands where mostly men. So if a woman chooses KKPsi over TBS then she has made a choice to "THINK" for herself and not let others tell her what people she will associate with.

Delta Chi Chapter, Kappa Kappa Psi
(yeah, that's right, it's the dirty dirty
south smacking you in the face.)

On the contrary......
 

Actually.......Wava had a specific purpose in mind when making the our beloved sister organization......i mean, ....u have to ask yourself the question........Why is there a TBS??? I'm not saying that i wouldn't accept a female brother anyway.......but the phrase "female brother" is an oxy moron by itself......
I equally hate to see male sisters!!! I mean, what the heck is that??? A MALE sister???? It's just unbelievable what America sees as legit these days........
I'm sure that Wava would much rather see a Sorority full of girls than a sorority full of guys.....As well as the fathers a frat. full of guys than full of girls........i mean, lets be honest!

Re: On the contrary......
 

and

First of all, most of the guys who are members of TBS say they are brothers of TBS. I haven't met a guy yet who calls himself a sister of TBS. And even if I do, that's perfectly fine.

Second of all, what does it matter what sex you are if you are joined together with a group of people for the same purpose? What does it matter if the founders of your org. are men and it is now full of women? Or vice versa? One of Chi Omega's founders was a man but you won't hear one of them complain about it! We learned that women were admitted into KKPsi during WWII when the men were all shipped off to war...they were initated to keep the fraternity from dyeing off due to low numbers. Kinda' like in the movie "A League of Their Own" when women start playing baseball.

You should already know the purposes, but here they are again:

"Be it known that Kappa Kappa Psi, National Honorary Fraternity for College Bandmembers, is an organization operating exclusively in the field of the college and university bands, and for the following several purposes:

(1) To promote the existence and welfare of the college and university bands and to cultivate at large a wholesome respect for their activities and achievements.

(2) To honor outstanding bandmembers through privilege of membership extended as a reward for technical achievement and appreciation for the best in music.

(3) To stimulate campus leadership and promulgate an uncompromising respect through the medium of the college band for gracious conduct, good taste and unswerving loyalty.

(4) To foster a close relationship between college bands and promote a high average of attainment by the performance of good music and selection of worthwhile projects.

(5) To provide a pleasant and helpful social experience for all engaged in college band work and to cooperate with other musical organizations in any manner consistent with the purposes of the institution at which chapters are located."

Nowhere does it say "brother" or "men" or "boys" or "brotherhood." So really, by calling ourselves "brothers," it's not really something that is official. There is currently a thread on this board somewhere and I'm sure there are several more where the different sororities discuss whether they were founded as a "sorority" or a "fraternity." My sorority is known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. That does not in any way make us "brothers" of our fraternity. Fraternity is just a word, and defined by the dictionary as "a body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild." Where does that mention that it is chiefly male or that the members are known as "brothers" or "sisters?"

If you have such a problem with this, why did you join KKPsi to begin with?

We all have our opinions but keep in mind we're all brothers that experienced the same ritual and principles. I personally accept anyone as a brother in the bond of music and service.

I don't want to stir up trouble but if you have a problem with KKPsi being coed then there are things you can do to deal with it. Personally I wanted the all male fraternity experience and that's why I pledged Phi Delta Theta. As a dual greek I can see it from both perspectives. If you want the all male experience then there are plenty of other greek organizations out there. Some people have given me crap for being in both. Some feel I may have left the brotherhood of KKPsi but the truth is I love both equally. But anywho yeah if you want there are other opportunities out there.

Re: On the contrary......
 

Is it really??? The word brother is not always used to describe gender.

Brother
1. A male person who has the same father and mother with another person, or who has one of them only. In the latter case he is more definitely called a half brother, or brother of the half blood.
2. One related or closely united to another by some common tie or interest, as of rank, profession, membership in a society, toil, suffering, etc.;
3. One who, or that which, resembles another in distinctive qualities or traits of character.

I could go on with the defintions of the word brother that have nothing to do with your gender, but you get the point...I hope
:confused:

The co-ed chapters in KKY and TBS can (and are) a problem in many schools, yet others seem to handle it just fine.

My class was the last year that both the KKY and TBS chapters at my school were single-sex. The next year, KKY went co-ed. TBS did not. Three years later, TBS was gone. The chapter has been reborn, and is now co-ed, although is by far still majority female. I would prefer single-sex chapters, but at the same time... our chapters of KKY and TBS have such different personalities and different goals-- the co-ed chapters work well to offer different possibilities for each incoming band member.

The most important thing, I think, is that each member who joins the organization does so because they want to, not because it's the only choice available to them.

~ Mel.

Re: Re: On the contrary......
 

For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary <b>Fraternity</b>" on it. :) Both organizations are officially fraternities.

The terms sister and brother are used loosely in our chapter... the guys in TBS go with what they're comfortable with. :)

Re: Re: Re: On the contrary......
 

Thanks, Measi, for bringing up this point. I do not know much about TBS other than that it is KKPsi's "sister" organization. We had a TBS chapter at my school (it was also co-ed), but they closed a little over a year after I pledged.

I don't know what happened to the original poster who got us on this tangent (psi_chotic), but I somehow doubt any of this really matters to him.

.

I personly don't like the idea of women in the frat but I would never (and never will...with or without estrogen) would turn a brother away....
The only music fraternities I know of are KKPsi ,PMA, and SAI
TBS is a sorority *it states this on your constitution*...sure it may may use a unisex word like band member but you are a sorority non the less and any man that joins your ranks a sorority sister regaurdless of what u may call him ..........personly I can only aprove of men joining in certian situations...honorary and restablishment of a dead chapter....but to each his own......

But this coed thing is/does causing a problem ......."if you have one then why the need for the other".......ask a few Universities that have run into this problem with the administration if men and women can join an org that is coed and serve the same purpose then y let u have both....

might as well disolve TBS and only have PSI...and tell Wava thanks for the memories!!!!

Of course--- dissolve TBS. Very typical of brothers who have some insecurity complex. Honestly, I don't know where KKPsi brothers have developed this b.s. I hear it all the time from brothers. I've rarely heard it from sisters-- and when I have heard it, it's been out of frustration in response to this posturing.

Do yourself a favor and get rid of the attitude-- because it HURTS your organization. BOTH organizations are equal in worth. If you think TBS should be dissolved, then KKPsi should be as well.

Do both organizations serve the same purpose? Yes. Do they go about it in the same way? Depends on your school. I can say for sure that Theta Beta (for KKPsi) and Eta Gamma (for TBS) are completely different organizations. Completely different dynamic, and they attract completely different types of people. Both chapters are co-ed. I can't speak for Theta Beta's feeling toward their female brothers, but I wouldn't trade our male sisters for anything.

Co-ed chapters CAN create problems if both organizations don't agree it's a good thing. But schools such as UConn have had both co-ed chapters for years, and it's never been a problem there.

:rolleyes:

Does it really matter? KKPsi and TBS are both co-ed and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I doubt you and psi_chotic are even members of KKPsi and are simply trolls (if not the same one). My brothers would not come on here and make such ignorant statements. If you were a brother, you would have a better comprehension of the issue. So next time, read what you've written before hitting that button that says "Submit Reply" - you'll save yourself and my fraternity a lot of disgrace.

KTHNXBYE.

First off this is a discution board..everyone can post there views even if you don't like them ( the troll thing is a little out of place).....

Like I said before I don't care for women in the frat...I was raised different than you...my definitin of who belongs in what are based of of cultural upbringings(sp) when it comes to this issue.......(nothing sexist)

Like I said I would never disrespect or turn my back on a female member they are my fraternity brothers and will be treated as such (that is unless she just don't know anything about the org she's in and is just in it for the letters across her chest but all that can be fixed :D ).....and why would you hear a complaint from a women who has pledged Psi :confused:...now I have heard complaints from TBS members about girls who go Psi...they just dont like it (nothing on a personal level but more on the level of what fraternal organization they should have affiliated themselves with)

The women in Psi and men in TBS thing does go both ways...

As I stated before if you read the problem with the co-ed thing is largly(sp) from an administration stand point at a few places and yes within the band itself when it comes to acceptance as a REAL FRATERNITY in the world outside of the band hall.... some schools wont let you charter both orgs due to the simularities of purpose and their now co-ed status....Like it has been said before "if you have one that provides service to the band then why do you need another organization that does the same thing?"....

and yes i am Psi in good standing and life ......you dont have to like it.....just live with it :p ......I still love you, got nothing personal aginst you and all that realy matters is the work we put into the frat...


and no i am not Psi_cotic
AEA

Well, your motive/identity is suspect when your very first post on this board is of the nature that yours was.

Go back and re-read what Measi posted:Although these organizations have similar purposes, they are different organizations. They are going to attract different types of people. Obviously there is a need for both groups. Guess what - it happens every day in the social greek systems. All of the social GLOs have a similar purpose, but on most campuses there is more than one social GLO. Hmmm, how could that be? Perhaps b/c each group is unique in its own way. One group will be able to offer what another group is lacking.

If your membership numbers are dwindling, don't blame it on TBS for taking your members. Blame it on yourselves for not being able to recruit well.

And by the way, by saying that you don't care for women in KKPsi, you ARE disrespecting the women in KKPsi. I wonder how would you treat a woman who was president of your chapter?

Are you basing your feelings about women being in KKPsi on the fact that KKPsi is chartered as a fraternity? Is it semantics that's causing the problem in your head? Because if so, you need to (again) go back and re-read what I said about my sorority. We are known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. But, we're women-only. But we're a fraternity. Strange. (please note the sarcasm.) I don't know what else could be indicating to you that KKPsi should be for men only.

Besides, Measi already told you: TBS is a fraternity.

Is your chapter co-ed?

This is an issue on which we all will have to agree to disagree. As a founding member of an HBCU single-sex chapter on a campus with a companion single-sex chapter of TBS, I can understand where looseneck4 and psichotic are coming from. Of course, I will welcome a female member of my org the same as I would any other, and I have on many occasions when I have had the opportunity to do so.

But, there are cultural differences that come into play here. Many of us who came through "gender-specific" chapters (both men AND women) support that way of thinking and don't equate it to discrimination or restriction of any person's rights.

I can also understand the way of thinking in the co-ed chapter culture and I certainly wouldn't be the one to dump on that, especially when they are fulfilling the sacred principles of our Fraternity. That's what works for them. However, remember that "single-sex" chapters work for us.

The problem here is when some co-ed chapter members (not all, and not necessarily those posting in this thread) try to imply that those of us who support the "single-sex" chapter way of thinking are somehow discriminatory, uninformed, or "neanderthals" who need to change.

IMHO, there is room for both views in our organization. Just as co-ed chapters are here to stay, so are "gender-specific" ones. We're all here for the same purposes. That's just the way it is.

Just my $19.19.

AEA

blkwebman,

Out of curiosity, what would you do if a woman were to try to become a member at your single-sex chapter?

ETA: blkwebman's post is a lot more respectful and empathetic than is looseneck's. blkwebman was able to rationally state the reasons behind his logic, whereas looseneck came on here and blatantly stated that women in KKPsi is a problem and that TBS should be dissolved. That's just rude and really puts people on the defensive.

AxiD670,

If a female expressed her desire to join KKPsi and not TBS, then I would never seek to prevent her from submitting herself for consideration. To be honest though, I would have to ask her "Why KKPsi and not TBS?" and her answer would probably weigh heavily on the decision to accept her for MIP. Keep in mind, that "Why KKPsi?" would also be a critical question for any male prospective. Since this has never happened before, it's kind of hard to say exactly how things would unfold if it did.

However, I do not believe that this would ever happen (it never has in my undergrad chapter) because of the cultural traditions on campuses like my alma mater (both within the band community and the student population at large). The ladies identify heavily with TBS and the guys identify with KKPsi. And in general, the Greek community generally falls along gender-specific lines.

Now, if a female member of KKPsi who was made in another chapter were to transfer to our school, then I would welcome her just as I would any other member. I know of another single-sex chapter at a nearby school who has a female member that transferred from another school.

When I originally joined TBS, our chapters were also heavily identified in gender roles. There had been some attempts by guys to pledge TBS (and I'm sure, but never had heard of girls attempting to go KKPsi). Honestly, I prefered it that way. The rumblings by brothers that TBS was inferior and therefore should be eliminated was already present, however.

For what it's worth, blkwebman1919--- you appear to have a very healthy (and respectful) attitude about it. It's refreshing.

~ Mel.

To answer your last Q.. my chapter is all male...and 8 times out of 10 will stay that way... things can change(for what ever reason good or bad) and with the way the program is going it just may one day induct a female member......but only by say 1 or 2 members if it ever does ( u have to know the band)........

I mean no disrespect or ill will to any female member past, pressent, or future... its just culturaly I see things different than u and a few of other people....no realy big problem

As for my women in KKPsi being a problem statement I gave my reasons behind it..nothing personal just what is noticed from my side of the tracks.....

As for our TBS chapter it been inactive for the last 10 years due to there being almost no women in the band (all male marching unit ...which is were our KKPsi and TBS operated out of...) weve only recently aquired SAI and M Phi E was not attracting that much attention to itself.....

As for there being a fraternity for women OH WOW!!!!......tell me something i don't know...sorority is a rather a new word to the world.....

When Psi was founded it was made by bandsmen for bandsmen(male fraternity)...but since then things have changed (some from group believes others for legal reasons and then there is the just cause factor.....but changed non the less) all we can do its keep working towards our one collective goal regardless of who has on the letters.....

Re: My opinion.....
 

I know I'm a bit late in jumping into this conversation, but being a brother of KKPsi Alpha, I seem to remember a bit about our band's history and how there were no female members of the OAMC (now OSU) bands at the time the fraternity was founded... so, there is really no way to know how they would have organized had there been women in the band.

This is crazy....
 

Ive seen alot of opinions......ive seen alot of ideas....
Its weird how people can accept their own opinion but wont listen to others.....Im not tryin to persuade you....im just tryin to inform you of my OPINION.......
you know, a DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.......seeing something in ANOTHER LIGHT....
I am not one to cause or fuel discord among my brethren but i do have strong emotions on the subject of my fraternity.
I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)
YES I AM A BROTHER. and i didnt have to go back to the internet or my pledge book to know my purposes OR my foundation.
I have no problem with coming together for oen central cause for the betterment of bands.......It's when I try to incorporate the other aspects of our frat. into the mix and then there's an obvious difference. SHE isnt just one of the guys......WHY?......cause she's not a guy. NOT and NEVER will be.....Im not able to look at a female and view her as one of the guys....and i know im not the only one. Frankly, that causes our bruhs to have to go out and join other orgs. to get the TRUE BROTHERHOOD. I dont care about Webster's definition. You will never look at your blood sister and call her you brother.
The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be.
PROOF:
Bohumil Makovsky was a 33rd degree Mason. Research Masonry.......
There are 2 dominant orgs. = O.E.S. & Freemasonry
O.E.S. is a Co-ed organization but Boh wasnt apart of that.....
He was in FREEMASONRY......which is a BROTHERHOOD.....and consists of only male members........
and if you think that his involvment with masonry has nothing to with it....then you dont even know why our colors are Blue and White!!!.....Blue & White are the two main Masonic colors...
Read it and weep...
I love yall ...........AEA.........