BGLO member: Is Tolerance Good or Bad Overall?
 

I was reading the thread about Sensuret I in the Alpha Phi Alpha forum and various responses and began thinking of this question:

It is good, in and of itself, to be tolerant of the various lifestyles of members within our BGLO organizations?
Do we feel that we should accept the behavior of each of our members in order to be good members ourselves?
Is it a matter of whether we agree with the behavior?

I began to wonder this b/c whenever anyone says anything about a gay person in any of the BGLO frats, there is always the line drawn between the argument that the person makes the frat look bad and therefore shouldn't carry on or at least shouldn't claim the frat when doing so vs. people should be able to do whatever they want b/c it's a free world and people are bad if they don't accept what other people do in their lives. Which is it?

Of course, I'm simplifying both sides.

What do the BGLO members think? I specifically asked what BGLO *members* think b/c I think that when you know what it is to love an organization by being a member, it seems that you feel this issue for your organization most intently and that is what I'm asking about. Not the theorists. The real live BGLO members.


SC

There is fact and then there is reality...

I can see what the Alphas were saying. And I can see what Sensuret was saying...

There are better ways to handle it.

How would we be able to handle it if we had a lesbian coming out all out of our Sorority? Like she was famous and she got married somewhere and lived a "bodacious" lifestyle?

How would be handle sorors that may have lived on the "wayside" when they were young and were once "prostitutes" and "strippers" but they have changed dramatically and re-envisioned their life to become one's to change lives positively?

Basically, EVERYONE walks that lonesome valley by themselves on their own road to Damascus...

However, a better question would be should we penalize those who are members who have done criminal acts outside of the organization?

These are controversial topics that you ladies are discussing, first of all what someone does in the privacy of their home is their own business. However, the person I feel- should not openly acknowledge this in association with their BGLO, as some people would misconstrue or not be as accepting of their behavior and thus further stereotype BGLOs- because of their association. Should those who commit criminal acts be penalized who are a part of the organization? Further information would be needed in order to make a decision- Were they representing themselves as part of the organization? If so, then they should be penalized. When one holds oneself out there publicly for display, then all acts should be looked at.

I completely agree.

Still, I believe that a THINKING person should be able to understand that organizations are made up of people. Even if the people share common goals, they are not the SAME person.

I agree with what has been said however, I do feel that much of what was discussed in the Alpha forum was very sensitive because of the ways that gay men are protrayed in society. I don't think it's the same as a lesbian woman who is a member of XYZ sorority coming out or living in that lifestyle. Society penalizes being gay and male, not to mention being BLACK, gay and male. Being a gay woman on the other hand, isn't as stigmatized. Furthermore, there is a belief that a woman can go both ways, or be gay one day and not the next (a la Ann Heche) or be bisexual. WOmen don't automatically feel that a lesbian friend is trying to "get some: from them. Men, on the other hand, cringe at the thought of being in the locker room with a brothah who discloses that he's gay because men KNOW they are very visual and led by their...Therefore, when a man sleeps with another man, any other points of contention are moot. Society condemns it and men don't want to be associated.

Again, I think the "issue" came to be based on the fact that this brothah is a very active member of his Frat and men don't want their Frat to be associated with gay-ness. I think the question someone in another GLO asked on the Chit Chat board was very poignant...would this be as inflammatory if he were a serial killer/rapist/child molester? Yes and no. Yes, because I am sure many men of Alpha would see those acts as deplorable, however, it doesn't connote that every Alpha is a rapist/serial killer. etc. Moreso, it doesn't invite all serial killers and rapists to join Alpha, but the thought that gay men would see Alpha as "the gay man's Frat" is again, deplorable to heterosexual Alpha men. I say this because my most recent ex-boyfriend (LOSER) is an Alpha who is VERY anti-gay. I am an AIDS activist and try to get him to see the error in his ways. He ain't havin' it.

Mothaf____s just ain't tronna (yes I did say tronna) hear no gay itsh...point BLANK!!!

Ladies,
Do you think that we should be tolerant of those in our organizations, in general (not really asking specifically about the sexual orientation thing)?

Like for instance, if a woman in one of our orgs was outwardly professing to do something that we think is negative, and not hiding the fact that she is a member of our org, do you think that as good members we say "to each her own," or as good members, do we shun that behavior if its a negative reflection on the organization?

For instance, what if we have a member who outwardly sleeps with the husbands of other women. Do we shun that or do we say to each her own?

What do you think?

SC

Now for me that is a whole 'nother issue--one of sisterhood.

And to the issue of crimes outside of the organization--I leave that to the criminal justice system, and the ruling documents of the organization.

As for the Gay issue, the Alphas already took a stand when they told E. Lynn Harris not to mention the fraternity in his books, nor publicly acknowledge his affiliation. But I guess the good news is they did not take his pin. :rolleyes:

And I wish someone would answer the question I posed in the Alpha forum. Since this perception of Alpha being the Gay frat existed long before Rashid was born, or even thought of, what caused it to perpetuate all this time? Especially since being "out" is a relatively new phenomenom.

Thanks Soror SC for this topic. If ANYONE who is NOT a member of a BGLO posts, it will be deleted.

Please continue! :D

I look at her like I'm 1/2 crazy. Then, I ask if she's active (doing anything for the organization). My concern lies more with THAT than whose husband she's sleeping with.


I guess it depends on your region. Yes, where I'm from Alpha has been known as the "Gay" frat. Yet, I met an Alpha years ago and he didn't know that. :confused:
However, I've heard the same thing about the Kappas. That goes back to sterotypes. I know there is a thread about that in this forum.

:confused:

Gays and lesbians exist in our organizations. ALL of our organizations if we want to believe it or not. I'll put on a "face" but if you're doing what you are supposed to do regarding our organizations....CARRY ON! :D


I KNOW you're not saying Alphas are losers. I"m sure you're saying that your ex-boyfriend, who just happened to be an Alpha is a loser. :D :p

Sure Soror! I hope that we can have an interesting discussion.
SC

Ladygreek,
I think that what caused people to get up in arms was the tying together of Alpha Phi Alpha with what so many people believe is not positive behavior i.e. being homosexual. As if it is a poor reflection on the fraternity. I think that it was really about someone standing up and proclaiming proudly to be an Alpha when the behavior may be questionable to some. For instance, it might be like me doign inappropriate behavior for all to see then proclaiming that I'm a proud member of Alpha Kappa Alpha. Example: I'm getting sloppy drunk and wearing paraphenalia. I don't know but I might get hemmed up by other sorors in the room at the time. I don't think that the homosexuality proclamation is any different int the minds of some.

That's why I posed this question to really get other's views on whether others thought that doing behavior that some may deem negative is something to be seen as "to each his/her own" or soemthing to be shunned. Although my post isn't directed to homosexuality, whether we like it or not, in general, it tends to fit into behavior that the general society considers as wrong. I didn't want to get into the homosexual right/wrong discussion (b/c that will never be resolved) so that's why I was basically asking about behavior that is deemed by general society to be behavior that is not good.

SC

Oh. my. please. do. not. do. that. :o
:eek:

*sigh*

Soror, that's what I mean. I think that some take the proclamation that one is proudly homosexual and in the next breath speaking about one's affiliation with a BGLO in the same way. I think this was the reason for the reaction. I was just giving Ladygreek (and all of you) an example that I knew that you could feel. :)

I would never do that. :)

SC

SC, I hear what your are saying.

And I also look at behavior seperate from sexuality. If a Gay Alpha was slobbering all over a dude in public while wearing para, I would be just as upset if a soror was slobbering all over a dude in public wearing DST para.

I have to agree with Soror. No organization is a monolith -- we do have commonalities but we don't think in lockstep.

>>Like for instance, if a woman in one of our orgs was outwardly professing to do something that we think is negative, and not hiding the fact that she is a member of our org, do you think that as good members we say "to each her own," or as good members, do we shun that behavior if its a negative reflection on the organization?<<

does that type of behavior qualify as ethical and moral?!

But to answer your question, NO HBGL Orgs DON'T HAVE TO BE TOLERANT!

The Supreme Court reaffirmed this right when they handed a victory to the Boy Scouts a few years ago. The right of free assembly, one that is outlined in the Bill of Rights, means you get to SELECT whom you want to hang out with.

I chose not to hang out with people who sell pharmaceuticals illegally, does that mean that I'm discriminating...HELL YEAH (of course, some may chose not to hang out with me cuz I can't spell)

We have folks that get "married in reverse, accidently, on purpose"... Have the child first to get the man to marry them... Sometimes it works for them, many times it doesn't... How do we promote a "Healthy Family Mentality" when deceptive practices were implemented to have a family in the first place?

Deception is not general society behavior that leads to good...

But folks do it...

Dr. Joyce Brothers just wrote an article in Parade Magazine about the virtues of having "shame"... That "shame" in and of itself is not neccessarily a bad thing when used appropriately--i.e. not used to denigrate another human being (usually a child) to be submissive to the another's will (usually a parent). Shame used appropriately can be teach children these lessons they need to know right from wrong--at least that is what she says...

And nowadays, what is good behavior? Doing what the authorities tell you? Or what a "Good Book" tells you or ELSE? How do I know what I have done is wrong?

In a completely secular society, devoid of religiousity, how come murder is wrong? How did these capital crime punishment laws develop?

^^
In the past, there have been threads that have been tailored to NPHC members (I'm thinking of Greek Decline) and they haven't, shall we say, ruffled people's feathers.

I think all of this came about because certain users don't know the protocol to request a person's removal. It's called PM the admin, because John is the only person who can remove folks from the site, if he so chooses.

Moderators can't ban people. How many times have folks said this?

Whoa AKA_Monet, That was deep!

EXACTLY!

Thanks for the shout, and for what you said in the other thread about taking the individual to task with discretion.

I ignore the source of controversy because I don't come to GC to deal with those issues -- there are other venues for that.

I come here to interact with my sorors and other Greeks.

Thanks Ladygreek for having my back!

i don't want a gay brother of mine promoting homosexuality and my organization at the same time. he can do that on his own time. my organization wasn't founded in order to promote homosexuality, therefore the two should be separate.

gay members know that the majority of the membership does not share their lifestyle, and many of them look down upon it. right or wrong, ignorant or whatever...that's the way it is. they know this prior to joining. therefore, they have ample warning on how they are going to be percieved or whether or not they're going to be accepted by the general membership. if they truly love what we symbolize, then harsh words on the net shouldn't break their spirit.

to answer the question...would i vote in an interest who was openly gay?


NO.

i don't agree with the lifestyle, so why should i want this person representing me and my principles? we're human, and we're hypocrites. we choose what we want to follow. this is one of those things that i don't cast a blind eye to.

would i accept a gay brother?

YES. a bruh is a bruh is a bruh. period.

i don't agree with what he does, but as long as it's on his time and not frat time....then i won't have a problem.

Since I will be out of town tomorrow and Ideal is out of town, this thread will be closed until I return online Thursday afternoon.

Sorors, SisterandBrotherGreeks, Please keep your comments until then. I WILL re-open the thread on Thursday afternoon. That way I will be able "monitor" the thread.

Thanks for choosing not to address those who are not members of HBGLOs that chose to infiltrate.

Soror those are interesting points.
In your mind, should deception be shunned as much as negative behavior that can be seen outwardly? It is interesting b/c it seems that many in many of our orgs may do things that we are more willing to tolerate because it doesn't come to light. For instance, I recall a man in a BGLO saying once that his fraternity brothers were wrong for not being faithful to their wives but as long as it didn't come to light, like, say alcoholism, it was more accepted because of the fact that it was not apparent and therefore did not *outwardly* cast a negative light on the organization.

SC

Correct
:D

Oh what webs we weave when we first try, try to deceive...

What comes around goes around... It is that circular reasoning that many in the minds of those of African descent use...

Eventually, those that are deceptive will get caught, one way or another...

Dude that cheats on his wife may be able to hide it from her, but what if he passes HIV to his wife and she is faithful???

See, folks are always trying to "buck" the system, surpass living life as a season... Life does not move in that form... I wish that it did, alas, we have to live through it...

Lemme put it to you like this: You are arguing issues of PRINCIPALITIES... Spiritual issues. There are a lot of bad Spirits among us. What we must do, is surround and bathe ourselves with the good and enriching Spirits, while living a selfless life... That is hard to do when we are circling the Wheel of Life and stay in one zone for too long... Our kind of folks have a tendancy to do that, often...

How do we transcend it? By calling on a power greater than us... We are incapable of solely doing it on our own... We need that belief of transcendance to KNOW that somehow, what we are here on Earth for is making difference... That is our lot in life as humans...

Most folks live in denial... And remember, DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt...