Al Roquer investigates Horrors of Hazing
 

Did anyone else watch this show ?? At first I thought it was being actually an ok show, showing that sports groups haze, noting that a lot of the incidents they were reporting happened in groups that weren't even recognized by their campus AT ALL, then they bring on none other than ALEXANDRA ROBBINS saying "pleding needs to be eliminated all together" and saying the only way to stop hazing is to Get rid of greeks, and saying more school should consider a ban on greek life.

So, to be the Devil's advocate, what they should have done is point out the things you've mentioned above -- which is good -- and ignore perhaps the most visible anti-Greek/hazing spokespersons in the country?

Wouldn't that be just the opposite of what everyone always accuses Journalism of? Only showing one side of the issue?

Dr. Norman Pollard
 

I don't think Al clearly identified Norman Pollard, who talked repeatedly. He's part of the Alfred U hazing study of athletics, which was very flawed. For example, an athlete was considered 'hazed' if he had to report to campus earlier than other students.

If the seven rookies, and the 14 upperclassmen on the soccer team, reported to campus and started practice two weeks before classes start, all 21 kickers were 'hazed' by Pollard's and Alfred's study. If you consider that soccer, football, cheerleaders, band, and other sports all start practice early, it makes your hazing numbers distorted.

All of Alfred's studies are suspect, in my opinion.

Pollard was part of a web chat in 2000 - here's the url:

-----------------------------------------
http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcr...0/9/1/pollard/

September 1, 2000
Posted at: 1:05 p.m. EDT

(CNN) – Hazing -- dangerous or humiliating group initiation rites -- was once thought to be limited to college campuses and the military. However, in a study released August 28 by Alfred University, hazing is widespread among high school students seeking acceptance in various school-related and extracurricular groups.

Dr. Norman Pollard, director of the Counseling and Student Development Center at Alfred University since 1992, is co-investigator on "Initiation Rites in American High Schools." Dr. Pollard was a member of the advisory committee for Alfred University's 1999 study of hazing by member NCAA intercollegiate athletic teams. He has been a frequent speaker on hazing to various professional organizations and has presented several workshops on hazing prevention at colleges and universities.

Alexandra Robbins is not an anti-hazing spokesperson. She's a pro-Alexandra Robbins spokesperson.

If you have to go with visible anti-hazing people, Hank Nuwer or Eileen Stevens would trump Robbins...although their boobs aren't as perky.

To be completely balanced what they would've had to do is bring out people who said "HAZING IS GREAT !!" They didn't do that, or even bring up the fact that some groups don't haze and do good things for their college communities, so, IMO, to bring out people who say "ban greeks at all college campuses" which is what quite a few people interviewed did say toward the end of the show, wasn't balanced.

Coverage of the actual incidences reported on was fairly balanced, his conclusion about the whole hazing problem was not.

Human nature embraces any kind of rite of passage. Even impromptu ones --- that's where hazing comes in.

Hazing has come to be this glorified rite of passage; students expect it and in some cases welcome it.

That doesn't make it right. Greeks need to take more of a stance on hazing, and students and advisers need to eliminate it and publicize their success in eliminating it. Bad news spreads. You have to work to promote good news.

As we know.... Banning Greek Life won't eliminate hazing. It will just eliminate hazing in Greek organizations. Next we'll have to ban every known group activity until there is no possible way of influencing group-think.

... Hazing isn't going away. I don't condone it, and I am in favor of closing down chapters of organizations who haze.

While we're at it and crucifying college students, lower the drinking age back down to 18, and kids will stop drinking themselves to death in private... at least on a larger scale.

I TiVo'd it and watched this morning. I didn't think it was very balanced, which would be difficult to do in a hour under any circumstances.

1. The pledged girls who were abused were a part of a non-panhellenic, non-recognized sorority, but no one but GLO members would know that. It also make it sound like all the GLOs on Loyola have this same mentality, which may or may not be the case.

2. They spend a bunch of time talking about the HS hazed boy (really sad acutally), but in the end it's about "maybe we should ban GLOs on campuses." Didn't they just spend considerable time discussing how this hazing practices are often starting at the HS level? And how young folks are bringing their hazing rituals/attitudes to college? It seems like the bans and fixes should be starting there, but no one really suggested that.

3. The program only spoke to those hazing sorority members from that local sorority (who justified their pledging processes)--no one from the NPC, NIC, IFC, MGLO, NPHC, etc. The ZBT case was certainly about hazing, although not initiation based hazing, since the guy was already a member. That was an extremely unfortunate but less common situation (brothers beating up another brother for "ratting", throwing the poor guy out of the organization. Guy has an accidental or intentional OD).

There were some other problems with the story, but theses were some of the doozies. Understand that I am not negating any of the incidences of hazing, either on the show or IRL. However, it was a long on sensationalism and short on broad-based solutions (one about bonding activities instead and another about banning GLOs)

I agree...I was actually quite surpirsed that they spent so much time with the high school wrestler segment, but to just jump to the conclusion that eliminating GLO's will end hazing is ridiculous.....I know that the most hazing on my campus was done by the athletes and the band......and I liked how the father of the wrestler justified that military hazing was ok b/c they are trying to build soldiers :rolleyes:

Did any of you notice how alexandra robbins looked NOTHING like she looks in her pub photos? How the HELL did she pass as 19?!?!?!

Maybe she didn't "pass off" as 19 at all.. there is the possiblity she made everything up :p

Make up can go a long way. Plus people can beleive what you tell them. so if you look older, but say you are 19 more often than not people will not question it (unless it is really obvious such as my grandmother saying she's 19,) well nobody would beleive that. But i am 30 years old and i can pass for 16 simply by styling my hair a certain way and wearing the right kind of make up. Not saying that is how it happened just saying that it can.

Yes, I noticed that also.

Agreed

I agree wholeheartedly.

It starts even younger actually....relating personal experience here...

When my oldest son was a Tiger Cub Scout I was the "Den Mom."
When I attended my first pack meeting, there was a BobCat Rank awarding. The boys earn their BobCat rank before becoming a Cub Scout.

In my son's pack, the BobCat award ceremony was to have two GROWN men turned the child upside down (head to the ground feet way in the air) and the CubMaster wrote on his forehead the letter B with a permanent marker (ie, sharpie). (Motto of Scouting - Do a good turn NOTE: that is the BOY Scout motto, not the CUB Scout Motto)

I was shocked and horrified at the hazing of it, coming from a GLO background. Think about the implications of this....(and as a mom with a BIG - now 6'1/250lbs - son at the time even for 1st grade) I did. He would be scared to be turned upside down, but would be scared of being labeled a weiny, so he would do it anyway going against his better judgement. THEN knowing him, he would panic upside down, and be labeled a weiny anyway (or worse dropped because he was so big). Think about what it teaches these youngsters...if this was ok when I was in FIRST grade, *this plus that* is ok in High School, THEN *this plus that plus alcohol plus god knows what* is ok in college. Shudder, it just grows more dramatic and dangerous as tolerance to the hazing increases.

Shortly after the first pack meeting, I took the "leader" training offered by the local BSA Council and during the anti-hazing portion of the training, I specifically asked the trainer about this practice. I was told "well, some people think this might be hazing, but I don't know. We dont' really do anything about it".

I called the BSA National Executive Office and talked to the National Assistant Executive (Ernest Turner) at the time. He told me unequivocally, "this practice does not belong in scouting, should not be done, IS HAZING, and should be stopped immediately" He faxed me a letter to that, and sent a follow up letter as well (with a CC to the Council Executive). SURPRISE SURPRISE. I called the Council Executive and he said "well we dont' condone it, but we don't monitor all our packs". I said I had a letter for the Asst NED (that I knew he had been CC'd) and he basically brushed me off.

I took the letter to the CubMaster, and his response was "I don't care what it says I am doing it anyway" and in the end I was asked to not be a Den Mom because I raised trouble.

At that point, we withdrew our son from the pack and would not let our other 2 sons participate (I am First Class recipient 1977 for GSUSA, and my husband is an Eagle). Sidenote: boys are now -8 years later- back in a great BOY Scout troop, husband is asst scoutmaster and all are moving through the ranks.

I took the letter to the charter organization and FINALLY they said "stop this practice or we withdraw our support". The Pack choose to leave the school for a year. After that CubMaster retired, the Pack came back to the school and does NOT haze, as a direct result of my efforts.

A PRIME example of hazing learned young!! Stamping it out where we see it is critical. Teaching young people (grade school, high school and up) we work with that hazing at all is unacceptable, is the start to eliminating it.

Wow sage, that totally floors me. As a den leader of my son's cub scout den, I can't imagine anybody treating the boys like that. Good for you for working so hard to put an end to that practice.

I have had soo many time of my life that i have "complained about something unjust or something that i felt was wrong and then i get the perverbial short end of the stick.

I am so glad that things worked out in the end. This reminds me of the thread about the high school in Texas where the freshman compalined and something was done about it. Its nice to see that things happen when good people stand up.

This is a quandary
 

This is a quandary for me.

I think kids deserve to have a little fun, and while I wouldn't want to be held upside down while somebody wrote on my forehead, it seems to me that you are describing an awards ceremony, which an 8-yr.-old boy would enjoy, and he would wear the "B" for bobcat proudly so all his classmates and teachers could know he was a winner.

Surely two adults could safely hold an 8-yr.-old upside down.

I'm not accusing you, but too many mothers today want to eliminate all risks from the lives of their children. They seem to only want only teacher and adult planned and supervised play, only on areas carefully padded with wood chips and rubber meeting Federal Standard 1234 (sec. ccd).

Another example is boys swimming naked at the YMCA and summer camps. Generations of boys grew up learning to swim in the suit God gave them, and showering after gym class in gang showers. (I last saw a nude swim class at U. Maryland about 1975). The past generation of mothers has ended these traditions, alarmed that shy little Johnny might feel "uncomfortable".

I'm opposed to GLO hazing, but the generations of boys grew into men - leaders, soldiers, inventors, teachers, etc. - not by suffering from hazing and locker room fun, but by learning to give and take.

We from the major GLO conferences always complain that people's perceptions of our organizations are often shaped by local organizations that don't have moritoriums on speaking with the press placed on them. Perhaps this "report" by Mr. Roker serves as an excellent example of this.

It is time for us to look at our policies of not allowing our chapters to show themselves on MTV, not allowing our members to comment to the media. By doing this, we are forcing the media to go to these local organizations that may have represented us well about 20 years ago, but today? Certainly not.

They do not have risk reduction policies like ours, they do not have anti-hazing policies like ours, they do not have huge insurance premiums to pay like we do (although I know there are some exceptions).

I really wish that the press wouldn't have doors slammed in their faces all over campus only to be welcomed in by some start up local named Delta Tau Delta (in honor of their idols from Animal House).

Re: This is a quandary
 

I do under the bonding of common experience. And I was on the receiving end of what I now know was hazing in a school sanctioned activity in 8th grade (Curtis Jr High School, University Place School District, Tacoma Washington), and I don't feel "damaged" by it.

HOWEVER, this was indirect definance of a stated policy of BSA...the "ceremony" itself had no basis in the CUB SCOUT mystic (not the right "motto"), and when confronted on the inappropriateness of this, was still continued. THAT is the fertile grounds that the seeds of further and more dramatic hazing are sown.

uhhh...do you mean Delta Tau Chi? DTD is a national fraternity founded at Bethany College.

Ah, a true Animal House Lover!:cool:

ktsnake is getting into Law School so you must forgive Him. :eek:

But, whether We as National GLOs try to explain this away as only a Local Problem, it really isnt.:(

We on GC see this almost daily from not only Locals, but from Our Own Brothers and Sisters of National Status. That is what is sad isnt it?:(

But Remember, stay away from News Media. Bad is good, good is bad and doesnt get reported that much:mad:

Um...I think you're thinking of Delta Tau Chi. Last I heard, Delta Tau Delta had been around since 1858 and has a number of chapters -- mine has been continuosly active since 1862.

But taking your comments a step beyond, I suspect that most nationals have chapters that they wouldn't want dealing with the MTV's of the world. If for no other reason, the MTV's of the world can pretty much make any chapter look bad through selective editing. But we all beat that horse when the first sorority show was produced.

Additionally, I would still say that most undergraduates don't have the background to deal with the media.

I understand your thought process, but I think it has a few flaws that could sink us deeper.

I saw this a few nights ago and it was just silly. I can NOT view Al as a serious journalist.

And every time I see the lovely Deborah Roberts all I can think is "Girl FRIEND. WHAT were you thinking?"

That's what I meant.

Delta Tau Chi I believe is also a national law enforcement professional society :D

Well, you're thinking worst case, I'm thinking best case :D

For example, there was a special on the History Channel about fraternities. Our chapter at Ole Miss (I'd put it on par with any top chapter of any group in the country) was represented there. They taped and interviewed our members. There was also another fraternity taped in that show (the kid ended up going with them [the fool]). Both groups, however were excellent representations of what fraternities SHOULD be.

I can think of several chapters of my organization that I certainly would not want on that type of show though.

I think a "Fraternity Life" using our Ole Miss chapter on MTV would not only be a great show, it'd go a long ways towards putting our best foot forward.

Ditto on that. Al, stick to the weather, in YOUR neck of the woods:p

Wait a minute, when did Al stop being a weatherman?

Dude... did you not see the series he did when he had his stomach stapled?

omigaw

and then turns around and works nearly full time for the FOOD NETWORK reviewing cook offs and all that kind of stuff.

Kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? And I still don't understand how he has such a good looking wife who allows him to get away with that.

I wonder what his Today Show co-worker Katie Couric thinks of all this...she is a Delta Delta Delta, after all (and a proud one, at that).

Hey Ktsnake, do you know if the History Channel has that special that you mention on DVD? I would love to see it.

Also, MTV wants ratings and sensationalism with these "greek" shows. Maybe they should do a documentary about REAL fraternity/sorority life and the positive things that our GLOs do on campus' all across America.

It's clearly obvious that most people do not understand all of the efforts Greeks have taken to eliminate hazing.

However, I do feel that while it is a good thing to eliminate hazing some of our headquarters may have taken it a little too far just to please non-Greeks. I think the definition of hazing has gotten way out of control.

For example, I remember when I was the new member orientation chair I could not require them to memorize their new member info because it would be considered hazing to make someone feel like they had to do something they didn't want to. We were no longer able to name new member classes by the greek alphabet because we wouldn't want to haze them by labeling them and separating them from the rest of the chapter.

The result, I've seen a lot of women initiated into my chapter who didn't have a clue about our history or what Alpha Xi Delta really means. How can you convey what your sorority means and stands for to a new member who already thinks that she is and knows what it means to be a sister because she is already treated like she is a sister before she is even initiated.

(sorry if I rambled but this whole definition of hazing thing really bugs me.)

2. It is so sad that all of the good work Greeks do goes unnoticed. I think that it would be wonderful if everyone's headquarters got together and put together a major PR/marketing effort to inform the world how about what we really about.
One thing I would do if I was working at my headquarters would be to try to make sure that whenever a chapter has some sort of philanthropy event I would have headquarters helping to get the sorority's name in the media. Have the local news report on the event etc. Form some sort of grassroots effort to have the public support their local Greeks. Think about how much more of a difference our chapters could really make.

Impact
 

Apparently the GLOs are getting together for an "anti-hazing day" in Sept. 2005.

Hope they can make an impact.

I hear she drives an escalade.

I taped it, loaned it to one of my brothers, and he lost it.

Never checked on the DVD.

My husband and I taped it when it first came on. I thought it was great.

I don't think that MTV would do a show documenting the real side of greek life cause of their quest for ratings. I really did like the 1st sorority life, but comming from a GLO i took it with the perverbial grain of salt cause i knew what they were showing was only one side of the story. I wish that MTV would do shows showing good positive stories about volunteering and how greeks contribute to their campus and all the wonderful stuff, but i really don't think that this will happen cause they want rating and what brings in ratings is not the touchy feelly stuff that you are talking about.


Just my 2 cents/opinion.

To True For Many Of us!:(

Be a Member of a club or a Greek Organization. Learn or be a person that has no idea?

If for those that have been around, MTV, really shows Greeks in a Positive Life!:rolleyes:

When advice from GCers, stay the hell away from them, then it is good advice!

When did they ever show Us as Greeks in a good light?:eek:

What does Your GLO do to give back to The Community? A Lot, I am sure!

alfuzzxi,

I completely agree with everything you said.