Teacher's Salaries part 2
 

Ok this is the same discussion. The other was a bit off topic and also getting too long to follow. This is Kddani's original comment:

ETA: link to original discussion that expands on this comment and others.

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...threadid=62627

Following up on Rudey's "don't you need a JD?" to step into a courtroom comment, you need a JD to even sit for the bar exam....then you need to not only pass the bar exam, but be admitted to the jurisdiction in question before stepping into a courtroom as a lawyer....so no, people cannot just "try" to be a lawyer....

As a PS, why was the thread closed in the first place?

Don't know why the thread was closed, but I was going to reply to Rudey's post with this. I didn't think you could even step into the courtroom without going through several steps. Thank you for confirming that.

The thread wasn't closed because it was bad. I just think that at a certain point it can get too long and become "unwieldly" which discourages people from continuing a good discussion.

I don't know why either, thought it was a fairly civil discussion that stayed on track and while people were heated at times, it still went way better than most contraversial topics.

I also don't like my post being reposted in another thread without my follow up comments elaborating and clarifying what I meant.

I was posting a reply to Rudey's question when the thread was closed.

I'm not sure about all the details, but you can represent yourself in court which is called acting pro se.

My friend did this in court against a very well known NYC attorney and won. My friend couldn't afford an attorney of equal caliber since it would have cost $50,000 in retainer fees.

yes, anyone can represent themselves (for the most part), but you can't represent anyone else and you can't be paid to represent someone else

Thanks for clarifying that. :)

That would be kinda funny if you could represent someone else, can you imagine the stupidity?

Actually there are federal courts dealing with specific issues where you can represent others . . . even though you are not a lawyer.

What courts are you speaking of?

This is from the other thread I posted. These are "administrative courts"

The Federal Example

Another indication that individuals without bar approval can adequately render legal services is that most federal administrative agencies permit unlicensed practitioners to represent parties in cases before them, both adversarial and nonadversarial. According to the Results of the 1984 Survey of Non-Lawyer Practice Before Federal Administrative Agencies, published jointly in 1985 by the ABA Standing Committee on Lawyers’ Responsibility for Client Protection and the Center for Professional Responsibility, there have been few reports of problems with lay advocates.

The U.S. Patent Office administers a competency test that both attorneys and nonattorneys must pass before they can bring cases before the office. There is no evidence to suggest that the nonattorneys are any less capable than the attorneys in dealing with the complexities of patent law and procedure. And in the case of Sperry v. Florida Bar (1963), the Supreme Court rebuffed an attempt by the Florida bar to prevent a non-bar member from representing Florida clients in patent applications.

Accountants, who are usually not bar members, frequently advise their clients on tax matters, and "enrolled agents" are permitted to appear before the U.S. Tax Court on behalf of their clients in disputes with the Internal Revenue Service. Accountants usually understand tax law as well as or better than many lawyers. As Barlow Christensen argues in the American Bar Foundation Research Journal (1980):

The accountant who lives every day in the field of tax law almost surely has an understanding of that field comparable to a lawyer’s understanding. Indeed, a proficient accountant probably knows and understands the tax laws far better than does the general practice lawyer.

In Michigan, nonlawyers are permitted to represent parties in proceedings before the Michigan Employment Security Commission (MESC). That requires considerable knowledge of the relevant law, but there is no evidence that claimants or employers have been ill-served by nonlawyers. The Michigan bar in 1985 fought to have a slight ambiguity in the wording of the Michigan Employment Security Act interpreted in a way that would place MESC cases under Michigan’s UPL statute, but failed.

In many states, nonlawyer real estate agents have been successfully preparing legal conveyancing documents for years. In Arizona, for example, a state supreme court decision in 1961 ruled that such work constituted the "practice of law" and was therefore illegal (State Bar of Arizona v. Arizona Land Title & Trust Co.). The realtors mounted a campaign, vigorously opposed by the state bar, to overturn that decision by amending Arizona’s constitution. The public voted in favor of the amendment by almost four to one. Since the adoption of that amendment, no evidence of consumer harm from incompetent document preparation has come to light.

To Comment on the Unions...

Unions are the reason my family has food on the table. My father has been a loyal union member for the past 30 some odd years of his life. He never "needed" his union steward until this past summer, when his finger was crushed and amputated at work. The union fought for his medical leave and to keep him employed. As a kid , we never crossed picket lines, switched newspapers so we wouldn't be scabs, brought doughnuts to a strike...the union is part of my family.

Not all unions are the same. I do see some of the importance of unions when I work on files every day of injured workers similar to your father. But teaching unions deal with a lot different subject matter than those of blue collar workers.

But are they necessary for teaching? Can they get too much power? In my opinion, they're not really necessary for teaching. And I do think they can get too much power when they offer too many protections, such as when the pay isn't commessurate (spelling way off on that one...) with performance. When a teacher can continually be lazy and not make any effort and still get pay raises.

In Michigan (and I believe this is true in all 50 states), it is not legal to teach without a teaching certificate, which requires a degree in education, the passing of competency exams AND at least 20 credits of grad school in the first 5 years of teaching.

While anybody can try to be a teacher, not just anybody is actually capable of keeping the behaviors of 20-30 kids under control for 6 hours a day, knowing how to identify the learning styles of each individual child and making sure they teach to each learning style, evaluating which level each child performs at and keeping them challenged at their own levels, etc.

I definitely disagree with the statement "anybody can be a teacher" and I disagree even MORE with the statement "anybody can be a GOOD teacher".

Dee

This isn't true, I believe several states were mentioned in the other thread where one doesn't need a teaching degree or to pass exams to teach.

In NJ, you only have to have a certain amount of college credits to be a substitute. One of my sisters was a sub when she went home for the summer... during May and June she made some decent money.

Who says anybody can be a teacher and that anybody can be a GOOD teacher?

-Rudey

One reason that teachers have unions is to protect themselves from unfair dismissal. One real common scenario around here: a high school wants to hire some fantastic coach and the guy says he's not coming unless his wife can teach art in the same school. The principal does his best to boot the perfectly decent, maybe even award-winning, art teacher to give the coach's wife a job.

Or the vice principal wants her best friend to take the math job--or the personnel director is mad because a teacher's kid got some honor that she wanted her kid to get...and guess which teachers get the ax? All the above are true stories.

I've heard some horrendous stories around the area.

I thought you made the argument that anybody can be a teacher..........:confused:

Ok. Let me distill what I read in the last thread.

There is nothing inherently wrong with teachers or teaching.

Teachers are government employees, and as such are payied by our tax dollars.

The question then is whether teachers are making more money than they "should" be given their civil service aspects.

The biggest problem seems to be the allowance of union for what is essentially a group of state employees. Because of that teacher salaries have grown way beyond what the average salary for non-teachers has in the same time period.

So are teachers overpaid? In some areas of the country definitely. What would be fair? To pay them what the average single person from that region with a 4 year degree makes. And when I see region, I don't mean something specifically localized like Manhatten.

Teachers shouldn't be making dramatically greater salaries than the normal college graduate.

No, I didn't.

I mean I guess in an ideal world anyone can be anything - you can be the President and I can be a billionaire playboy.

I am saying that there are more people that can be teachers than can be those in certain other professions (like bankers or doctors).

I am also saying that there is a difference between what you can physically do (and might not enjoy) and that which you can't. Someone can be a teacher, drink piss for a living, etc. Someone cannot fly. For some, being a doctor is akin to flying.

-Rudey

My uncle is the president of a very successful bank, which started off as 1 location and now has over 50 branches. He didn't go to college. By your logic, I guess I could say that anyone can be a banker.

All of the people I know who are teachers have masters degrees, becfause if they didn't get those degrees, they wouldn't be considered "highly qualified" and could be fired. Maybe it isn't like that in every state, where there are teacher shortages, but it is common. Did you ever think about why there are teacher shortages? It's because it is a very difficult and demanding job with relatively low pay for the education you have to have. I couldn't do it, and I really appreciate those of you who do. I think good teachers deserve every bit of the money a doctor, lawyer, banker, etc. makes.

Actually I don't think you understood my logic at all.

And regarding banking, I wasn't referring to commercial banking. I was talking about investment banking. We don't give loans and take away people's farms; we help build things. There aren't as many bankers as there are teachers who are capable of doing what we do and command what we make.

-Rudey

James, are you refering to paralegals?

Teaching is a very hard and rewarding profession. to those that take the time and energy to do so. I grew up in a family of teachers and most of my friends growing up had parents that were teachers. Teachers are way under respected. You know when you go to a store and see some mom or dad with an out of control child....someday that child will be in school and our teachers will have to control the behavior and also teach that child something. Just imgaine if the mom or dad can't control that child, how do you think a teacher with 20-30 students feel. I know in California you have to have a credential to teach. Whether that is an emergency credential to substitute or long term teach, or a certified credential.
I could go on for days because I do believe that teachers are under paid, under respected and under acknowledged for all their hard work.

Determining a teachers pay depending on their performance is an issue in California right now. My question is, how can you do that fairly? Do you tie it to student performance? That doesn't seem right. I teach almost 200 high school students, many of whom don't care what about school. It doesn't seem to make a difference what I do, they still do nothing.

Or, do you tie it to teacher evaluations? If that's the case, you could get an administrator who doesn't like you, which would hinder a pay raise as well.

I love being a teacher, even though its tough at times and frustrating. I work extremely hard for my 37,000 a year. (I don't have a masters degree, but have almost 45 post graduate units).

Ok, today I officially declare that I deserve a raise!! They do not pay me enough to have a snotty nose, pmsing, bratty freshmen girl yell at me because she can't find her stinking candy. I used my faveorite line today, "GET OUT OF MY ROOM!"