Brainy women have trouble finding men
 

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...n_050102204340

While it's true that women who concentrate with their careers are less likely to find men, I have issues with the fact that the article implies that women who choose marriage over career are seen as "less bright".

I've got issues with that too, but what bothers me more is the article's implication that a woman cannot have both a marriage and a career.

The article says that men want women to be a copy of their mothers. Younger men probably had moms who worked, so does that mean they want a wife that works or one that is an opposite of their mom?

I don't know, but either way that assumption creeps me out.

I don't think the author of the article says anywhere that women who get married are less smart (although one of the people quoted does guess that might be a reason why). It does actually back up the claim that women with low IQs are more likely to get married.

Now it would be interesting to know if women with higher IQs aren't getting married as often because a) they don't want to or b) they CAN'T. I think this is a really interesting conclusion that deserves more study.

Hey, Mrs. DA had no trouble at all.

I met her in a class and there were two of my pledge brothers, one of our actives and several other guys from the Radio-TV Department, along with the lead singer of the band she sang in.

I figured I'd better move first, or I'd be left in their dust.

That is CREEPY.

Extremely.

It is indeed creepy. I don't think it's really true.

Oedipus complex

There is a member of my alumnae chapter in her 40's who's never been married and a couple of years ago we were having this very same conversation. She has a number of female friends who are divorced and she said they were all finding that yes, indeed, men in their generation DID want wives that were like their mothers. BUT, the women in her generation were either divorced or never got married in the first place so they were happily supporting themselves and weren't looking for a man to take care of them. Definite disconnect........

I was raised to be self sufficient and not rely on anyone but myself, I saw too much divorce growing up to ever think that I would have a man who would ALWAYS be there to support me.

Through dating, I have found that some men are intimidated by women (IQ is irrelevant) who have absolutely no NEED for them. I'm not being mean there, just pointing out that a woman (like myself) who has gone to grad school, has a career, and is more than capable of taking care of herself doesn't want a man who is going to try to take care of her. She wants one who can be her equal and share in life. The only men I ever NEED are plumbers and electricians and I can hire those. The distinction is between NEED and WANT and it is huge.

I am not married (at 35) and my response to anyone would be that so far in life "I've had better things to do". I am now starting a new career which if done properly, will set me up for life.

Not to mention that I've become pretty picky in my old age and have yet to find any guy I would want to be married to (and vice versa).

Smartblonde-
Old age??? you are not old :)

Just a side note. I am not sure men are intimidated by women that don't need them per se, I think men can be turned off by certain aspects of body language and speech.

Men have a certain expectation of how women are supposed to carry themselves and speak and when that doesn't happen, the man may not "connect" with her romantically. Thats regardless of her financial condition or her emotional neediness.

Yeah, but in that case, the article suggests that women who carry themselves and speak intelligently will not be able to get this "connection" and I really dont agree with that. If a guy expects me to carry myself like an airhead, what does that say about him?

Hmm...I wouldnt usually think this, but maybe its a cultural difference?? I dont know much about the british and their view of gender roles. Oh, but I do know they have bad teeth.

The article comes to conclusions using statistics that don't say that at all.

All the study said was:
The study found the likelihood of marriage increased by 35 percent for boys for each 16-point increase in IQ.


But for girls, there is a 40-percent drop for each 16-point rise, according to the survey by the universities of Aberdeen, Bristol, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

It does not consider that the women who are more intelligent may not WANT to get married, are self sufficient and do not NEED to get married. The writer of the article drew the conclusion:

A high IQ is a hindrance for women wanting to get married while it is an asset for men, according to a study by four British universities published in The Sunday Times newspaper.

The two people they quoted were speculating on reasons for the statistics. This was a correlation study, not a causation study. I told the statisticians I work with about this study (all of whom are women with very high IQs who are married!) and they laughed at the conclusion drawn by the yahoo article.

Dee

A high IQ can be a hinderance for a man as well. Again I think it comes down to who adept his social skills are . . . if he has a habit of speaking pendantically and "talking over the head" of his listener, he is likely to intimidate.

That part was supposed to the comic relief....... :D

Intimidate, no. ANNOY the hell out of, yes. The superior attitude is disgusting if you ask me. Do you men realize that acting like that usually just gives us something to laugh about when you finally leave?

I had a date with a guy (blind date sort of thing) who is an engineer and higher on the IQ level and I found him to be so condescending. He was in a Fraternitiy at Ohio St and couldn't understand why I would still want to be involved. I got the distinct impression that he thought less of me because I was involved with Gamma Phi, got manicures and has season football tickets.

I agree with the comment carol made. If a guy expects me to act and talk like an airhead who enjoys nothing but shopping and knows nothing about sports, he is SORELY mistaken. I'm more likely to talk about the latest ball game than the newest fashion. :)

Did this study take into consideration people's choices? They just talk about frequency. I doubt all these women want to get married.

But I have to say I've had it happen to me. I can't tell you how many times I've had men literally walk away after I tell them where I went to school. It happens so often I've gotten used to it.

I think it is more of a thing like James says--emotional quotient (EQ), than just IQ for the desire of being with someone...

I hate to say it, but the Brits are rather entrenched in their Victorian traditions of dating, although they themselves rarely practice... Otherwise, how could "Bridget Jones" be written?

I think they often compete with the free love displayed by the Scandinavians, French, Spainairds and the Italians... It is okay to have a lover, and a spouse... But don't gloat on that too much...

If anything the Americans are more hung up on this than the Brits themselves...

There are reasons why societies want both men and women highly educated... Just look at how it is done in Japan, China and other well to do Pacific Rim countries... Then just make a correlation to the oppression of women in 3rd world nations and the care of their children... Ignorant with low IQ women has strong implications of the poverty of children...

I have yet to see high IQ and intelligent women have their children suffer and not have a spouse in the mix...

The bimbo thing is a Pornucopia Hollywood fantasy... Only in the movies does a dumbo woman get a good man...

I sort of disagree with this. Brit's are not hung up in old fashioned ways as you might believe. You'll find that they can be very arrogant and carry themselves with an air of superiority, but they are not prudes.

Also, this question had me thinking about a friend of mine. One night he was complaining about his girlfriend at the time and how she never took an interest in the things he liked, and couldn't even pretend to care about his interests, etc. She was only concerned with herself. She was only interested in dating him because he was supporting her lazy/no job a$$ and her three kids, none of which were his. I told him he needed to find a girl who wanted to be with him FOR HIM NOT and not because she needed someone to support her financially. I told him he needed someone independent. He said he couldn't date anyone who was too independent because he was afraid that she wouldn't need him.
Maybe some guys are not necessarliy intimidated by a woman's intelligence, but rather they are afraid if a woman is intelligent she is also too independent and won't need him and maybe some men are just afraid of not being needed.

Exactly.........

One of the top ten schools? Men don't assume you are bright we just think you might be a dork. j/k :p

Are you sure it's the school? It might not be the school.

-Rudey

I can understand the logic behind the thought. Many men are intimidated by an educated (especially in math and science), independent, strong woman. As a science major I have found that most men I meet try to make themselves come off in someway smarter than I am. They try to establish their educational dominance by trying to prove me wrong. In doing so they only prove their immaturity (which is not attractive). For this reason most men my age drive me nuts. I have found that the best ideas come through colaboration not competition. I am going to throw out a cheesey line, "we work better when we work together". I love working in research teams.

I don't think the Brits are prudish... But I do know that some of them--not all--but some, have some old-fashioned ideas about dating...

I just think that most of the British women have their pick of the litter... It's some of the British men that seem somewhat out there--and I am not talking about true Londoners, but some of the Northerner's, like in Sheffield... Because I really had a good time with the Scots and the Irish--so they aren't the problem... It's the "twits" you know...

And the Lady Londoneers... Whoohooo, they were snobby to all Northern Brits... So that's why they probably get played so bad, 'cuz dudes get tired of being cut down all the time--'specially when there are crazy American Women runnin' around all over the place and don't let them be from Southern California... Worse than a 'hooligan...

That's what I noticed when I was there a year ago...

Or maybe the Brits are just "slow to advance in the free love department"...

Or there's no such thing as McDonald's in most of England... But there's Burger King... Go figure...

I am glad to see you like research... I do too. But as you get higher in your field, men start to harp of women who pursue a math or science career... Especially one that they perceive as attractive...

So how do you defend yourself with buttwipes in science? Make sure you know your stuff...

And remember, they are men and they do look... So you can use those items to your advantage sometimes, but use them wisely...

Remember most guys in science are geeks. So once you understand that, then you can befriend them better and have them on your side when you need them...

I have a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology... That's why I am telling you. I hope you pursue and advance degree, too!

This applies to everything . . . Look, some of you are so caught up in your own independence (which is great) that you've taken to sweeping generalizations that simply may not be acccurate.

I've found that IQ and EQ (as AKA_Monet wisely put it) don't necessarily correlate very often - so when I'm seeking out someone to date, I'm looking for an emotional intelligence first, then an intellect. I don't need to discuss the finer points of string theory over drinks, but there will most likely be a time I need to discuss relationship issues. This is not to abase or somehow deny intelligent women - trust me, that's pretty cool no matter what - but rather to show that many factors come into play beyond what we've pointed out here.

Know your stuff . . . whether you're arguing sports, game theory, world events, or the direction of a relationship. Your masters in electrical engineering is pretty meaningless when the only level on which we can communicate is that of the text book - and this applies to the dudes as well, regardless of the standard.

Hey KSig RC--

I agree with your statements. In general, one has to know his or her stuff.

And I think that where SOME younger women get turned off in science is at the elementary-middle school years. Some of that has been clearly documented. And it has very little to do with a woman's ability to grasp scientific concepts. It seems it has to do with her surrounding support system and environment...

Read explanations in your general chemistry and physics textbooks on various laws and theories and how they are explained... Many of them are explained from a purely "male" perspective... Such as, if an engineer had 2 flanges to attach to a RFPA, etc...

Most young girls are barely exposed to those kinds of things... I am even amazed when my husband, a very smart scientist and veterinarian, explains some things to me I find extremely "male identified"...

It is my theory that many women scientist become successful in their field because they have found a way to either manuveur through such a predisposed scientific system (epistemology), remained elusive and ignored the simple-minded statements encountered while going through their fields, or were just that smart, that intelligent that is just didn't matter what folks said to them...

Many women I know who are in science do downplay their appearance. They don't wear make up, they barely dress up. Most women M.D.'s either wear scrubs or "pant suits" but are not wearing the fancy-smancy St. John Knits to work... And even the current lady Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology, Dr. Linda Buck, came out looking extremely haggard and stressed and she should be blasting away by looking good...

This to me is disheartening. And a few of my fellow women collegues in my Ph.D. program were the one's the keyed me into this observation...

And personally, I think of myself one of the attractive ladies... And when I choose to dress up, and do a little revelation--even though I may disagree with it for personal integrity--I do get a lot of help from men, my experiments would get done for me, magically... That's why they call these things the "wonderbra"...

So it is hard for a woman to pursue science EQUALLY to a man in this society... But, I don't know how it is seen in other countries because most of my Chinese women colleagues are creditialed scientists, too... Go figure...

Oh that's a hoot. AKA_Monet, you are awesome! I promise to wear wonderbras when I get my MD ;-)

Amen girls. Do you remeber the one talking barbie that said something along the lines of, "Math is tough". That definitly sent the wrong message to young girls.

Our sorority started a community service project in which we hang out with 5th grade girl scouts once a month for a few hours. We do the typical arts and crafts type stuff but we also have time devoted to math and science. I think it is absolutly essential to build a strong math and science foundation early on.

I to have read a lot revolving around the area of women and science and you are right on key. While I am only and undergrad, I am one of few females in my program. What also has become interesting to me, is the ratio of women who start out with the intention of a math or science degree to those who actually complete their degrees.

I give you a lot of credit for achieving your Ph.D.. It is encouraging to hear from women who have gone on to do it. I would love to obtain mine someday.

Re: science/math being from a male perspective

Many schools are now experimenting with single sex classes at the middle school level and have found that girls' math and science scores have gone up, as have boys' language scores. I can sort of understand this. In elementary school in the 80s and early 90s, the most popular series books were written for girls!

What I find interesting is this: In the past, a young woman wasn't considered "accomplished" unless she knew how to play the piano. Yet, successful composers were almost all men (The only pre 20th century woman composer I can think of is Clara Schumann). Perhaps it's the whole idea that ladies are supposed to entertain in the drawing room/parlour rather than in a concert hall.

Ladies were expected to be accomplished, not proficient. If you read Jane Austen, for example, you'll realize that addition to playing a little piano, young women were expected to be able to sing a little, speak a little French, speak a little Italian, draw a little, etc. They were not expected (or in many cases even allowed) to become masters of one craft, but to become decent at many.

If you have very tiny hands, and can barely reach an octave, it makes it harder to even become "proficient" in piano playing. In the 19th century, being able to play the equivlent of "big note piano" does not make one "proficient".

I somehow missed the whole math/science bias all through school. At least half (if not more) of the students in my AP math and science classes were girls all through junior high and high school. Of the top 10 of my class of 700+, 7 of the 10 were girls. In college, my Anatomy, Physiology and Neuroanatomy classes were almost all women (because we were Occupational Therapy majors primarily, but they were also the pre-med classes).

I work for a Biostatistics department and the PhD statisticians are: 3 female, 3 male. Our masters level statisticians are all female. BIO STATISTICIANS... you don't get more math/science than that!

And gee, I'm one of the network "guys" now (blink). How did that happen?

My mom was a medical technologist. Most medical technologists are women. They work in a lab with... math and science. Most nurses are women.. math and science. Dieticians.. math and science. Physical Therapists... math and science. Those are all traditionally female occupations.

I believe some people experienced this and I know there is research that shows it to be true as young as elementary school, but I sure didn't experience it at all. Someone forgot to tell me that I wasn't supposed to be good in math and science!

I will admit that the female statisticians with whom I work do not care a lick about their clothes, hair style, make up, etc. but that's true of the male statisticians too. Statisticians simply don't give a darn about those things. They are not people focused and don't care what others think of them. They're very cool, down to earth people (except when their SAS server is down, then they get edgy). Also, their minds work differently than everybody elses!

Dee

ETA: The female statisticians are all married to really brainy men too! AND, the two single/never been married statisticians are MEN (very geeky and socially inept men).

"Hard" sciences still attract relatively few women. Teachers' Preservice ("teachers' college") applications in Ontario have for several years encouraged women to apply to teach high school physics (if you want to teach middle school or high school, you have to declare a "teachable" when you apply) because physics (more so than math) seem to have fewer girls than boys. There are also not too many women who teach the subject. Of course, they also encourage guys to apply for elementary school teaching. I'm pretty sure fewer men teach elementary school than women teach science and math.

When you are ready to look at grad schools, lemme know... It gets worse the higher you go... Because most of your compatriots get married with kids... Just go to the Dating and Relationships forum and see the laments of women who feel they will NEVER get married...

And while you are in grad school, you cannot begin to maintain a serious relationship because it interferes with your academic achievement and abilities to do your work, period. Especially in math and science graduate work...

And do get your degree before you have a family, then wait until you finish your post-doctoral position... If you go to either Newsweek or Time magazine a few years ago, they explain what is so difficult about women being in science and it having to maintain a family... :(

But I hope you do go and get the highest degree you can obtain in your field. Good luck.

You know. Sometimes I wonder if the definition of brainy makes things a little confusing.

In studies of gifted people, they are usually giften in everything including social situations. Gifted being in terms of native aptitude versus studying hard, working hard, or being credentialed.

In facted gifted people gneerally fail of their full potential because they get caught up in the social aspects of life.

I think that when we are thinking of brainy, we tend to think in terms of credentials, and maybe over achieving. In which case it still comes down to social skills.

If you have good social skills, it doesn't matter what other things are going on.

The proverbial audio-visual kid often has less native aptitude than a popular bright kid that lazed his way through school because he/she didn't need to study. Even though the popular bright kid may not have had as good a GPA.

Haha, so that explains my problem.

But no -- although I have no studies to back this up, I have noticed that smart women WITH good social skills don't fare as well romantically as smart men with good social skills. I think that's what the study is getting at. But it needs to be studied more in-depth to make any sort of conclusion.

Much of this seems so true. Most of us dated around trying to find the "perfect" guy but almost all of us were in honors/high level academic programs. I remember talking with one my best buds and asked him what the deal was. He flat out told us one day that a lot of the guys we liked were too intimidated by smart women. We sort of laughed it off, but that always stuck with a few of us.

It's interesting to note that those of us in our group who are married have picked really smart brainy men as well. I'm married to a music instructor who also studied respiratory therapy, my best friend is married to a guy who is one of the top librarians in our city and also teaches at one of the colleges, one is married to a computer programmer, and the last is an incredible writer. The ones that aren't married tend to hang out with brainy men.

Dee--

So glad that you had little issues throughout your pursuit of your educational goals. To me, it's awesome to see women excel in once male-dominated positions.

Biostats, huh?.. I need help with my ANOVA calculations for my experiments... You think you can help me with that? :rolleyes: No, I'm serious... I suck at sadistics--no, I mean, statistics... ;)