Toast Song
 

So changing the Toast Song again did not happen at the 2004 National Convention. What are everyones feelings on this? Had it made it out of committee, the delegates from my chapter would have voted to change it (we're a predominantly female chapter, and we already sing "true to alpha phi omega" as opposed to "men of alpha phi omega." Do you forsee this ever changing?

We also sing "brothers clasp the hands of SISTERS" as opposed to brothers. It's odd for all of the girls in our chapter to refer to ourselves as brothers. What's everyones thoughts on this?

This board is too dead! Theres nothing like controversy to spice things up!

YILFS and APO luv
ashley

Personally, I don't feel that there is a need to change our toast song. We should stick with only one version of the toast song. I mean we recognize that this is a coed organization, but this is also a fraternity meaning that this is a BROTHERHOOD. If members wanted to sing sisters or call each other soror or sister then they should have respectfully joined a sorority. If your chapter is dominated by more females than males then deal with it. When things are changed it only becomes confusing for others to adapt to. Let the toast song be and let it remain.

I really hope people realize once and for all that the Brothers on the whole don't want the song to change.

And, as I say every two years, I don't see why some musically inclined soul doesn't decide to write some additional fraternity songs....

it would make more sense to write another song reflecting the whole co-ed thing than to change the toast song. I do not agree with changing the toast song and will never agree nor sing the toast song any other way. Alpha phi Omega has lost so many traditions so let just keep the one we have.

I agree with my brothers on this one. We have lost so much tradition in our beloved fraternity. Let the toast song remain as it is. As far as other songs, I cannot assist with that one, but I can come up with a few chants.

D-E-L-T-A P-H-I..............
First chapter at an HBCU
Known as Delta Phi

We stand loyal and we stand true.......
Holding our head high to the gold and blue......

D-E-L-T-A P-H-I.........
First chapter at an HBCU
Know as Delta Phi

From the female prespective....

Although there are men in teh frat I am in (zeta phi) , we are still predominately female, and personally, I DO NOT think the toast song shoul dbe changed. Let me put you up on game...

That toast song is apart of the rich legacy of our frat, and to up and change it in my eyes is sort of disrespectful. Here's my suggestion to you---since you guys are predominately female, write some songs for your chapter that acknowledge the strong presence of female and at the same time revels in the legacy of brotherhood that our frat so greatly admires. I know with the chapter of Zeta Phi, we have made many song significant to our chapter...from the olds heads who songs sounded like doo wop, to the new flava we currently have our pledges sing.

Now there is one thing you should always remember, you joined this fraternity with full knowledge that there are no 'sisters' in this frat and no woman is acknowledge that way here.

My advice to you is to look at the toast song as though one looks at the bible. Yeah, everything is refered to in the male since, but it represent all of mankind, since woMAN came from MAN. You're still represent whether it says man or person. just look at teh song objectively instead of subjectively.

Good luck

Amen. I'll go so far as if to say that if you think the toast song should be changed because you find the wording offensive, you should probably resign from APO.

I'm gonna have to agree. Delta Phi is now predominately all females and would hate to see the toast song changed. I knew coming into this organization that is was a fraternity based on brotherhood and that's what I love about it. Women are able to enter into this frat and be on the same level as a man. So why change a song that holds so much history and dignity of this great fraternity.

Just because we are females and we are called 'brothers' doesn't make us inferior it makes us unique. Be true to yourself and think about why you chose this service FRATERNITY.

Actually lost
 

I can remember losing a member of an interest group over the issue.

Randy

I never think that the toast song should be changed but I will admit that at Epsilon Mu(UMD- College Park) we added a verse.

Sing we now both men and women, brothers all are we
Hearts as one, we praise together our diversity
Ever growing, ever learning, so that we may be
Joined in Alpha Phi Omega, for eternity.

We never chaneged the fact that we are all brothers. We just expanded on the fact that we're all brothers(not matter what the sex of the person is).

And then there is...
 

Unofficial Third Verse)
Back your girl into a corner,
Turn the lights down low.
Place one hand upon her bosom,
The other down below.
When she starts to shake and shiver,
Tell her so she'll know--
That's the secret handshake of
The men of A-Phi-O.

(Unofficial Fourth Verse, in retaliation by the female brothers to the Third Verse)
Lead your guy on to the dance floor
Press your bodies tight
Tell him what he wants to hear
That he'll get some tonight
Let him walk you to your doorstep
Let him think you're cheap
Then send him home in agony
Where he can BEAT HIS MEAT

OK, obviously I'm in the minority here. But I do have a few things to point out.

1. Saying that I should resign from APO because I feel the toast song is outdated (not that I'm saying its bad, but had the toast song been written AFTER the fraternity turned coed, the words would surely be different) is flat out rude. Anyone who would do that is obviously not in APO for the right reasons.

2. I find that adding unofficial verses (especially lewd ones) is a lot more disrespectful than simply changing a couple words.

3. I'm obviously from a more liberal region than most. I'm not disrespecting the organization. Every single person in my chapter agrees that it should change.

4. Just because things change or should change does not mean they were bad in the first place. Simply outdated.

5. If the words were already "true to alpha phi omega" you would have nothing to complain about. Why specify "men" if not necessary (and yes I understand the whole men meaning people standpoint, but why even raise the question?)


The quasi-rude posts really aren't necessary. Just because i have a different viewpoint doesn't mean you need to jump on my back.

Well, I can't say that I've ever actually heard these sung, but rather found them here...
http://www.martinek.us/humor/songs.html , from Epsilon Lambda at Michigan Tech. The few brothers I have met from up there tended to have an odd sense of humor.

The tune certainly isn't originally ours. :)

Randy

The Toast Song is not going to change so you should leave it be. Brother such as myself is not gonna allow for such an event to take place. Alsom going back to the words that you all sing in your chapter (since you all are female) is disrespectful to my beloved organization. As I have stated before, there is a diversity issue in Alpha Phi Omega. Some people make a it a fraternity while others (like yourself) is trying to make it into a fraority and that is not what it is.

OK, now *that* is a bit harsh.

First of all, lurker's chapter is not *all* female, if you look at his original posting. And from what I understand from the National Office, there are now more women as active brothers in the fraternity than men. (Obviously more male alumni than female and the percentage of men who pledge is higher than those who initiate which is higher than those who stay active).

In some ways its humorous in that people like Jesse Bridges feel that the requirement that all chapters (especially to him, the HBCUs) activate/reactivate co-ed in his mind has already pushed us to being a Frarority.

I knew that would come off as meaner than I meant it to be, and I apologize. My chapter has always been coed (chartered in 1976) and we never had a problem with saying "brothers." It just seems to me that someone who does have that big of an issue with it is the one who is in APO for the wrong reason.

Changing the toast song or adding verses is not something approved by nationals. Period. (Unofficial songs are a different matter - every sorority and fraternity has them) Honestly, why don't you just get rid of the use of "brothers" period and change it to "members?" :rolleyes: That's the slippery slope we will slide down if things like this start getting changed.

My only issue with the Toast Song is, as Randy (Naraht) indicated, we legally cannot claim it as our own, as the tune was created and copyrighted by a non-brother, we just "borrowed" the tune and put our own lyrics in it. So in a sense, we are plagurising the "Toast Song" tune.

Rather that scrapping the Toast Song entirely, I would recommend someone come up with a tune original to Alpha Phi Omega with lyrics suitable for all brothers, and make that the official fraternity song, and make the Toast Song the unofficial song. That way, the Toast Song can be sung any way the chapter involved so desires, and the Fraternity song can be truly claimed as our own, and most likely no objections should arise.

I have heard this online debate on the Toast Song for 10 years, and I am surprised that no one thought to add a 2nd song.

new song
 

For those of you not at NatCon, and those of you there might have missed this - nearing the conclusion of the final legislative session, a resolution was put forth by the (now former) Region II Director, Craig Muckle, to look at writing a new song, since this Toast Song as it's currently sung (both officially and non-officially) has become more divisive than unifying.

The resolution did not pass.

In fact, there was a motion to table this resolution indefinitely. That motion passed.

So, even tho the idea of a new song was proposed, it went down in flames and was in fact tabled indefinitely. Will this come up again in Louisville? Of course it will....

Not Even!!!!!!!!
 

I do not agree with changing the Toast song, hell we've already changed the ORIGINAL purpose of the fraternity. I feel as though the lyrics that were used are sacred and are used for a particular reason, which may be unknown to us at this present time. NO disrespect, but I felt sick :mad: :mad: :mad: when I traveled to another section and heard them sing, "Friends of Alpha Phi Omega... :eek: :eek: :eek: " I kindly stepped back and asked what new fraternity did I enter, but I forgot some things are done quite DIFFERENTLY :rolleyes: in other places.

2004 Convention Choir
 

To hear the Toast Song, as sung by the 2004 Convention Choir:

http://www.apor3.org/images/2004Conv...OToastSong.mp3

Re: Not Even!!!!!!!!
 

You would prefer that Alpha Phi Omega have remained with its original purpose?

As of the 1926 Yearbook at Lafayette College

The purpose of the fraternity shall be to assemble those who have had experience and training under the Scout Oath and Laws, to revive the spirit of that Oath and Law, to develop friendship, to encourage encourage service, and to enable its members to become leaders of America's youth, through character-building, citizenship, college spirit and manly strength.

See
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/sp.../APOPhoto.html

Randy

i mean people it didnt change and most of the frat does not want it to change lets move to the next subject. I do personally think those who want the toast song change are not really knowledgable of the fraternity at all. We were an all male frat. we were an all male frat longer than we have been co-ed. yes the frat is co-ed but that is not the "offical" name of APO/ There is not co-ed service fraternity added on to our title. We have never had a female president ( not saying we never will) i feel if you want to be a sister then do a sorority. If you want to be a "friend" then do a club. If we want to be a "member" then do an honor society. We are a fraternity that allows female membership. I think we are going to come to a point where were going to have to decide whether or not to be a society. We have so many peolpe in our great org that take this as a social group. How many brother know read the history pass 76? How many brother really know history and how the sheild was made and important people to the frat. There isnt a year that goes by that i dont meet people who are in APO and dont know when the org was started. ive heard things like 76, 80, i have evern heard someone state that we were a new org. lol I really personally think we are losing the seriousness of the fraternity to this new ideal of change. Yes change is good and is needed in any org to survive and grow but to lose history or to totally forget our proud history is bad which has happened to APO in the last 30 years. People tend to focus on service but forget our founder wanted us to be brothers who did service not do service only. I love apo but i really feel we need to take our org more seriously and figth to keep our rich triditions alive and not to change something. we need to add on like we added on females in the org, we added a second verse to the toast song ( yes there was only 1 verse for many yes until they added another one) So lets not lose our focus of service and also lets not lose our focus of brotherhood.

Re: Re: Not Even!!!!!!!!
 

Dear Brother Randy,

I was just trying to show a major change unfortunately, it is not about me, but if it was it would not affect me. I went through the ranks from Tiger all the way to Eagle Scout. Now again--- this was just to show a major change!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Now I will digress.............

Your Brother in the Bond,
T. A. Henderson

I would imagine it would affect you as well, not personally, but how many of Zeta Phi chapter would still be there under the pre 1967 requirements (which by stating both experience under the Scout Oath and Manly strength, the 1926 purpose seems to require)...


Consider this. in the year 2004, the activities and actions of the most conservative chapter of Alpha Phi Omega has more in common with the most liberal than it does with any chapter of the fraternity during the time that Frank Reed Horton was Supreme Grand Master.

Randy

I would have to agree with lurker...by the way, welcome to the frat!!! To tell someone that they should resign because they do things differently at their chapter is OUT OF POCKET and WRONG!!! I am not saying that I agree with their chapter, but I have to respect their chapter, just like I would want mine's respected. People do need to realize that diversity is accepting the fact that people are different and that is an important part of Alpha Phi Omega!!!

Now as far as the issue about the toast song goes, I do not think that it should be changed because 1. I like the toast song as is and 2. I have accepted the fact that I am a brother in a fraternity, although I am a female, and a sexy one at that!:p But for me, the issue of the toast song is really a manifestation of a larger issue going on in Alpha Phi Omega that bothers me, and that is SWEEPING EVERY DAMN THING UNDER THE RUG AND BEING AMBIGIOUS for IMPORTANT ISSUES! Year in and out, the toast song, along with other things are brought up whether it is on GC, listserves, casual conversation, etc... Discussions are had only to have it postponed or swept under the rug! Everything is Laissez-Faire! Let the people do as they will! When are we going to confront the issues head on! Yes it is cool for some chapters to have there own traditions and mores and I can even deal with the cow print 'naila, but somethings should be unified throughout the frat and the Toast song is one of these things!!! That is ridiculous that you can travel to three different schools and hear three different versions!!! Everyone needs to sing the same version of it because it is something that we all should have in common and regardless whether I visit Alpha chapter or Mu Psi Mu chapter, I could feel comfortable in the brotherhood circle. The delegates at NATCON basically stated that the toast song should remain as is...SO Dead the issue, why allow people to bring it up every convention to only have it shot down!!!That needs to stop!!!

What is surprising to me is that most women in the frat like the song the way it is. You do have a couple of women/ultrafeminists who are trying to genderize everything but for the most part, the ladies accept things the way they are so I really don't want it to seem all of the women feel this way!!! For them, if it is really unbearable to say MEN or Brother, maybe they can join, OPA or GSS (NOT AN INSULT) I mean they do great service too or create their own org and they wouldn't have worry about this!!!

NEWS!!!
BRUH FO' LIFE

P.S. I wonder if this is an issue for GSS male sorors?!?!
P.P.S. Who keeps bringing this up every NATCON
P.P.P.S. Tomas, Yours in the Bond (for real?!?!
:eek: ) hmm... j/k you know I lub you:D :p but I see you!!!(sniggling at Tomas)

Actually, this as last time if I remember correctly, the National Board proposed local option, but I could be wrong.

The problem with moratoriums on things is that a large majority of voting delegates, this is their first convention and for a significant number of brothers, they only have one convention in their time as an active brother. If our conventions were semi-annual so that most people were at 3 or 4 or 5 then moratoriums might be appropriate.

We can ask over on the GSS board, but it is my understanding that less than 25% of GSS chapters are co-ed and even those chapters are still majority women. I think APO had percentage-wise more chapters co-ed by the end of the 1977-1978 school year than GSS has now. And as far as I know GSS doesn't have any male officers above the chapter level. (They have only one level of geographical organization, not two)

Randy

No you don't have to ask over on GSS Ave. I can answer it here as a GSS Staffer :D

Out of the 60+ chapters/colonies we have, I can count on one hand how many have men in it. And even then, it's only 1 or 2 guys in that chapter. Maybe one chapter I can think of has more than 2 guys in it.

GSS doesn't have any Male NBD Members and I don't see that changing anytime soon. So yeah, I think we're on a completely different level than APO, no disrespect.

Curiousity, which GSS chapter has more than two? (Wondering if APO is on that campus)

Agreed on a different level.

Randy

Toast song proposal
 

The only proposal this time was written by the Board of Directors - and that proposal was to change "men of" to "true to." I must note, however, that this was not a unanimous decision. I was one of the dissenting votes, but was in the minority. No student nor any chapter proposed changing the song. No alumni nor any alumni association proposed changing the song. The ONLY proposal this Convention was put forth by the BOD.

More or less support for changing?
 

Does anyone whose been to the last few (since 1990, I guess) conventions have a feeling for whether the number of voting delegates voting for something to change the toast song has gone up or down? I realize that comparing votes for a "local" option to a complete change to "True to" to addition of a third verse is tough to compare...

Randy

Re: Toast Song
 

Uh, the item did come out of committee (or aleast it was brought up on the floor). They apparently discussed it for a couple of hours and defeated it.

The issue with the Toast Song is that many people are being turned off on APO because of it. I'm all for tradition, but there are times when traditions need to change or go away (ex: hazing, etc). I hear stories of us loosing whole interest groups because of it, loosing potential pledges and the like. Now, part of that I would attribute to poor education on the part of APO people (ie not explaining about our Toast Song, not explaining about our use of the term 'Brother' etc). But actives need to be mindful of the affects of these issues. And I don't think they are. I heard comments by (I think) past National President "Pinky" Hirsch that he fealt the song was overdue to be changed, and it was in hopes that it would that lead him to attend this years NatConv.

Personally I felt that changing it to "True to" was not as radical a change as others proposed last time and one I felt should have gone thru.

I don't know if our use of the term "Brother" came up. Again, if potential pledges have the matter explained to them (I've done so on-line here, based on what I've told potentials, and most seem to like it. feel free to use it), most understand and except it, except for the occasional 'militant' type that hates it. But then, I'm a member of another co-ed org that ALSO calls all members Brothers (tho not the extent we do).

Just my 2 cents.

Happy New Year
 

first of all, greetings.

now, as for the toast song, i think that it should stay as is. i also feel like whoever challenges the toast song has the right to do so. whether or not i will sing it other than the way it was originally written is another question.

i too feel like some traditions need to die, but those sentiments are mostly aimed at bad and morally defunct traditions, not rich traditions that are simply outdated and and inapplicable due to a change in demographics. of course that happens to some traditions, but isnt that what makes them worth a damn in the first place? isnt that what its about? remembering and observing the simple and humble existence from which we have come? being able to sing the same song that H. Roe Bartle sang and sharing the same grip that Frank Reed Horton gave to other brothers in our past and being able to connect with the past?

anyways, as far as it turning off a perspective member. there are lots of things that turn off perspective members, i dont think that we should change those things. there are lots of men that are turned off on the frat because we are co-ed, does that mean being co-ed is an outdated tradition?!

i also feel that there is too much emphasis being placed on quantity as opposed to quality in regards to membership. why would we place so much time in effort in trying to make the frat more appealing to non-members vs. making our current membership comfortable and proud to be a part of it? we are already "the largest fraternity in the world" but what difference does it make when no one knows who we are? what about the majority of the membership that is gonna have the rug pulled from under them if the song is changed? what do you expect them to do? i can gaurantee that some will not want membership in the frat to be a family tradition. it sounds to me like members will be lost either way, i would rather cater to those who are already here, working hard as he!! for the frat.

as always, i appreciate the dialogue and respect everybody's opinion.

x

As a member of the Rituals and Traditions Reference Committe at the 2004 National Convention, there are a few things about this issue i would like to say (since we spend an ENTIRE day on it!)

First off, it DID make it out of our committee, we recommended the change, just wanted to clear that up (it was discussed for 2 hours, voted on, etc).

Everyone always seems to focus on the gender and tradition aspects of the Toast song, so i won't go into what everyone already knows.

:mad: **People need to stop thinking about this issue on a CHAPTER level and see how these words are effecting APO as a WHOLE.**:mad:

Alpha Phi Omega is a fraternity but also a Business. We raise money, spend money, hire and fire people just like a business does. We are considered a not-for-profit organization which means there is business activity that goes on. So who cares and what does this have to do with the Toast Song?

Alot, actually.

~Marketing is important in a business. We market that we are the largest national co-ed service fraternity. But this seems a little fishy to some when they hear our song. Businesses refuse to work with us because of the Toast Song, therefore we cannot raise funds to help our organization as a whole. (And while you may say- well how are they going to hear our song.... trust me, they do!)
~We had a prominent member of the APO Endowment fund that resigned because of the song alone. There was a conflict of interest on the behalf of her government job and this organization. Let's change the song, so we don't lose MORE impt people like this.:(
~There are places in this country that WILL NOT allow our organization to open a chapter because of this. It doesn't matter how much you explain that this reference is not an elitist statement- it DOESN'T MATTER.
~~If we are losing money because of this song, why not change it to cover our butts and give APO the chance to raise more money.).:eek:

And while some say, well if you change "men of" to "true to" then what is next, brothers, fraternity, etc. This is not true. While there are members that are upset about all of these usages, the MAIN conversery is over the term MEN alone. (I would like to refer you to another site that explains this a little better...http://customink.com/cink/r.jsp?E=bw...n.edu&F=trueto ;) )

I didn't pledge a business.

Business Of APO
 

No, you didn't pledge a business but if you took away the business aspect of APO, you wouldn't have the fraternity that you did pledge.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AChiOGirl9

Quote:

Originally posted by AChiOGirl9 ~We had a prominent member of the APO Endowment fund that resigned because of the song alone. There was a conflict of interest on the behalf of her government job and this organization. Let's change the song, so we don't lose MORE impt people like this.:(

Her loss, not ours.

Again, their loss, most definitely not ours.

If the only way we can keep this fraternity financially afloat is by catering to all the PC police and making a choice that the majority of the active membership doesn't even support, we have MUCH bigger problems than the toast song.

This is a brotherhood, not a club. If anything disturbs me about this toast song business it's that we may lose BROTHERS, not MONEY....but I guess that's just me.

Uh, but we have lost Brothers (and potential Brothers) because of it. I've been told that we've lost entire IG groups and potential pledges over it. For all we know there may be alumni out there who don't associate with us because they feel it should change.

Also, realize that money issues can affect us in many ways.

That's what I said. It makes me sad if we've lost brothers & potentials because of what they could gain from the fraternity in their life and vice versa. The poster I was quoting seemed solely concerned about the $$$ factor.

I realize that fraternities and sororities have a business aspect, but there is a way to take that into account and talk about it without being crass.

Clarification about $$
 

I just want to say that I am not focused soley on the $$ aspect of the Toast Song, (otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned us losing potential new chapters) but that many people dont REALIZE that we are losing $$ too because of it.

Just wanted to shed light on something that many people may not realize

I don't think the original poster was concerned solely with the money factor, just trying to be clear the very serious impact this has on APO. Its OUR lose when a Brother is forced to leave their position because of outside factors, not theirs. I think too many actives don't keep this in mind.

Same thing with the issue of NSW/NSSD reporting. Too many actives (and some staffers) look at it negatively in terms of the impact on their chapter of having to report this (despite the fact that if things are working, its very easy and quick to report on-line). They don't undestand that when APO tries to work with other organizations, proudly stating we are a service organization, we are asked for 'how many hours' has our org done. (compare this with the BSA who is able to report hundreds of millions of service hours due to the reporting with various recent programs!) And we don't have an answer! Without some kind of data its difficult to setup partnerships with other orgs. This is why NSW/NSSD reporting is so important. As well as Brothers earning the Presidental Volunteer Service Award. Again, Chapters (and actives) need to take a broader view of APO beyond their chapter and the impact on the organization as a whole.