table manners
 

was at a banquet the other day and was shocked at the lack of
table manners. We used to, as pledges, be instructed by our old
housemother...in the skills...or art...of table manners. Which fork
to use, how to pass food, etc. Does the NIC, NPC greek of today
get this training? We used to take great pride in ours, and we
had exchanges with the Pi Phis or Chi O's and we'd receive a goodly number of compliments.
And when we would be out on our jobs...our manners were often
noticed...the sign of a greek vs. the barb...
Any comments? Has fast food destroyed all this? The cell phone
has wrought havoc, too, on our dining habits...LOL

The chapter I advise tried to have an etiquette night, but I'm not quite sure how it went. I know that things like table manners seem antiquated to some people, but it just boils down to civility and learning how to act in social situations. There was a great article in the most recent BUST magazine (the one with Rosie Perez on the cover) about a woman who found an etiquette book written in 1948 and decided to live out the rules in the book for two weeks. Some of the rules were disastrous, but others had quite unintended results.

There's no excuse for poor home-training!

When I was an undergrad, a mass email was sent to the entire graduating class informing us about an optional business etiquette training seminar at a local restaurant. I'm not sure how many people went. I think seminars like this should be offered at the middle school level or even earlier. Students shouldn't have to wait until they're in their early 20s to learn.

I know of a social/family club in Toronto that offers etiquette training to kids and teens.

Interesting GLO-related info: When I was researching for my "major research paper", I found an etiquette book called Etiquette in Canada by Audrey Pringle that has a section advising girls on rush. The book was from the 40s, I think, and I guess more Canadian girls joined sororities back then.

We have a sister in South Carolina who teaches etiquette classes for children. She also teaches a business/interview etiquette class at the university where she is a recruiter. She's amazing! She gave us (AGD volunteers) an etiquette lesson and we had a lot of questions for her. We knew the basics, but she had such knowledge of details!

When I was a collegian, we had an etiquette tip at each meeting, taken from an Emily Post book, I believe. Most of this needs to be learned at home, early.

Dee

Unfortunitaly, those days are gone!:(

With the advent Hamburgers, Chicken Wings doused in BBQ sauce, etc. it is tough to show proper eating habits. That and along with speed eating to get and go, all is lost.

I went through the same thing with Mom Buck who was the House Mother for SX when I was once a pledge. Always think fondly of Her and all of the forks, knives, and spoons laid out at each setting.:)

Basically, anymore people dont really give a damn as dont eat in really uppercrust resturants anymore unless you are the snob money types and want to impress others.:(

I think a lot of those rules are antiquated or just plain stupid/stuffy. Obviously you don't chew with your mouth open, talk with food in your mouth, or put your feet on the table. But the whole fork thing is so stupid to me. Just put the food in your mouth.

somewhere in between
 

When Mother Lesh, in her 80s, would be absented from our table,
we would have the "Gentlemen's Freestyle Wolfing Contest." We
had a few of us who would inhale a pizza or slurp down the old
spaghetti red, or other such fare--in record time.
We took pride in inviting the dean or the president or parents or
prominent locals to sup with us. We had spirited songs between
the main course and dessert. While nostalgia make take hold, I
yet respect the posture held then. But, yes, times have changed.
It is true, today with the working mom not having time, and the
fast food outlets..that many things, manner-wise, have been ignored. I do not know whether farting at the table is acceptable
now, but 'spose so.
We would not DARE enter the Kappa house without exhibiting our best manners. A disapproving glance from the hostess would shame us at once.
Many a job luncheon would result in a hiring or flushing by the simple use or ignoring of dining manners.
Just one of the things that would distinguish greeks from barbs
was the ability to dine with a modicum of dignity. It is not too late. When the present generation kicked out the housemothers,
and began throwing up on the Pikes' porch, we lost something besides our beer.
Today's greek may scoff at the thoughts of manners and gentle
dining, they may return. When we come to our senses, ban
booze from the house and deflower the co-eds somewhere else
than the second floor of the fraternity, we might just recapture the dignity we once had. I feel sure this will be met with some
opposition...This missive is aimed at the greeks who have houses
or a place to meet and eat.

Phi Kappa Psi
 

We added a section on etiquette to our manual several years ago to address the decline in manners. Sadly, it was after I pledged, so I still hang spoons from my nose at 4 star restaurants.

So you think the whole "outside in" rule is silly? It doesn't really matter too much these days, since most settings have no more than three forks set out, and if you decide to have fish (for example), they replace the standard dinner fork with a fish fork and the standard dinner knife, etc...but the "outside in" rule still remains.

Re: somewhere in between
 

I think proper dining etiquette shouldn't be limited to those Greeks who are housed.

I remember giving an etiquette presentation to my chapter when I served as the Personal Development Coordinator as a collegian. The things I learned at CHARM SCHOOL were finally being put to good use!

Since I left, the dining etiquette lesson has been given twice a year -- one before Feast of Roses and one before International Reunion Day.

It's valuable to know these things long after your days of eating at the house!

OTW, that is truely a Breath of Fresh Air! Thank goodness there are people who really beleiveing in non Barbarians.

PhiPsiRuss, once again Greeks Learn on how to do things!:)

I just learned Last Night that LXA according to my source was the first one to have a Then "Pledge Manual" and all have copied ever since.

Whether We were the first or not is not the main thing! It is having a Book by which each Greek Organization can go by and follow, so, why dont some follow them?:rolleyes:

Oh, the reason for many utentiles were for health reasons, certain metals did not go good with certain foods!;)

defined terms
 

I cited my direction of table manners to the NIC, NPC groups who
are more likely to be housed. No offense, but I was trying to avoid the lashings of those who are not housed and who do not
have the opportunities that the esconced ones have.
And, true, many restaurants have done away with the various utensils, and cretins have replaced waiters.
But there it ends. A slob is a slob.

That sounds perfectly lovely! So many companies are forced to hire someone to teach etiquette now, since so few people learn any prior to entering the business world.

Would that more chapters would pick up on the value of this!

Greek Life at my old university as a whole heald a class on table etiquette... It worked pretty well, and I know much of my chapter was there.. Unfortunately overall, there is little taught to people in terms of table manners... I was taught as a young child by my grandmother... She also at one point went and gave lessons to my aunt's sorority because they were about to hold a formal dinner... I think it would be great if chapters would all hold workshops in table manners...

This isn't stuff that only Greeks should know. EVERYBODY should, for the sake of civility. So what if you never actually dine with the Queen of England? You should know how, just in case the opportunity arises. At least that's what I was taught.

It positively pains me to see my boyfriend's little brother eat--the kid all but lays his lip on the table, chews with his mouth open, doesn't sit up straight, can't hold a fork properly... and it goes on and on. I'm sitting here looking at our Amy Vanderbilt etiquette book and wondering where the Emily Post went. Maybe I should just present him with my copy of a teenage manner book that went into everything from how to politely decline a job to how to hold a fish knife.

The point of this rant is that table manners are extremely important. If you can't look civilized when performing basic functions like eating, when can you?

I think proper table manners of various cultures should be taught. You never know when you're going to be doing international business and invited to dinner somewhere. You don't want to be known as the ignorant foreigner. What's worse is you don't want to be the ignorant foreigner who is supposed to be from that culture (it's possible to be, say Chinese America or Chinese Canadian and not know all the proper rules)!

I think that this is only relevent if you're aware you're going to be dealing with those cultures. More often than not, you will be made aware of who you're going to be dealing with if you're going on a business dinner so there will be preperation for that.

On the general note of table manners, civility is key. Know how to act in the proper environment. You can't expect someone to act the same way at a nice sit-down dinner as one would at a casual picnic lunch. Actions should be appropriate to the environment and situation.

(In my opinion)
 

We don't have a house, but we do share an etiquette tip each week.

I'm 19, and while I do not generally fuss at my Greek/non-Greek friends for most table manner mistakes (like setting the knife backwards on the table), I do occasionally for some big ones (please don't wear a baseball cap at the dinner table!).

A good guideline to being a lady or a gentleman is this:
A lady or a gentleman tries to make others feel at ease. This does not mean being a doormat to company; basically, it means that a lady or a gentleman does not bring up uncomfortable, inappropriate, or hurtful subjects around guests.

Depending on where your family's from, it's possible that you aren't going to be aware of some rules because it's generally ASSUMED that you do. This, of course, wouldn't be the case in a business environment, since everyone is expected to know. However, if you're going to be meeting your boyfriend/girlfriend's family, and they are more traditional than yours, you could very well be embarassing yourself for not "knowing".

Absolutely not. There isn't enough time in the day to do this. People are joining a GLO, not attending two universities, full time, at the same time. If you want to learn about different cultures, you can take classes about different cultures at your university.

Proper table manners shouldn't be taught for formal dinners within your GLO, but also for reasons beyond that. Business programs sometimes teach table manners just in case you are invited to dinner in say, India or Japan, for example. Also, what if you are invited to a sister/brother's house for dinner over vacation? Say that sister/brother is Korean. In any case, the unabridged versions of Emily Post and Amy Vanderbilt (latest editions) do deal briefly with other cultures, I'm pretty sure.

And which cultures will you teach to a large group of women, with widely varying interests and backgrounds? There isn't even anything such as a singular culture of many nations. Culture in New York and Charleston are very different, and there aren't even any significant linguistic differences. This is a logistical issue. It isn't logistically possible to teach, in a useful and memorable way, the varying ettiquette of North American nations, and you want to add in Asian nations?

If you don't believe me, try to implement this in your Alpha Gam chapter. Be involved for two years, then step back. It will then either evolve into something different, but manageable, or it will simply die out within a few more years. Guaranteed.

the purpose of GLOs isn't to prepare you for international business transactions.

Perhaps if you're a business fraternity like AKPsi that might be interesting programming to have, but it's not really all that appropriate for a GLO really. Perhaps if you had sisters of a certain culture and wanted to teach etiquette for that culture, that could be both interesting and useful. But I didn't join a sorority to learn how to properly eat dinner in Japan.

There are 1000s of cultures in the world.

Besides that, very few young people know and understand etiquette for their own culture. Not appropriate to worry about other cultures before your own!

The most important thing is to tell people in your chapter that you go from the "outside in" and how to set a proper table. Very rarely are you going to have a five course dinner at the chapter house as seen in, say Tiffany's Table Manners for Teenagers. Most likely, it will be three courses (not including the sorbet or cheese course, that is...), with a fish fork/knife replacing a dinner fork/knife if you decide to have fish instead of meat or vegetarian. I'm surprised to hear that so many people haven't been taught these things. I thought that is was pretty much common sense to know not to slurp (even if you're from a culture where slurping is okay...(my grandmother says that it's okay in many Asian cultures, but still not "lady-like", so I don't do it.), not to chew with your mouth open or loudly, not to put your elbows on the table, reach across, etc! I guess that's why I think time should be spent learning about other cultures, at least the cultures that are represented in your house or cultures that have readily available cuisine in your town.

ETA: Why are we only talking about table manners? You can have perfect table manners, and yet, not write thank you notes or are rude to the host/hostess and/or other guests.

We are discussing table manners because the thread is entitiled 'table manners'.

Why should this be required of GLOs? What does it have to do with the purpose of GLOs, with the exception of perhaps multicultural GLOs? Our collegiates are already programmed out the wazoo, that's one of the number one complaints from chapter members.

My job will likely never require me to go to a foreign country and conduct a business deal. While it would be interesting to learn what the proper etiquette of another culture (particularly b/c I do love learning that kind of thing), not everyone has the interest, nor do they have the time! That time could be better spent doing things that are more productive and that are more useful.

Re: Foreign Customs...

Should be taught? No. My god, many chapters have a hard enough time getting through all the required teachings each year that to add in another frivolous requirement is silly.

However, I do think this is an excellent topic for an optional workshop. It would fit in well if a chapter was doing a term focusing on business etiquette.

Why should this not be taught in GLOs while you are in school?


Give it a rest, learn to be acceptable!

Look like a slob, act like a slob!:rolleyes:

after your microwave thread you shouldn't be calling anyone a slob!!! ;)

As Erik said, this was something taught by the Housemother, and one of the things I liked most about the Fraternity.

Not that some of it may have slipped over the years, I'm still very comfortable with which fork to use.

And your sarcastic point is?

Oh DeltAlum of course. We try to be Gentlemen.

Try working 11 hour days with one day off and see what it feels like getting home and fixing dinner!

WOW, I am not in Friggen Law School Where it is so hard to study and learn.:( Only Graduated with a Degree, ooow
Sorryie me.

I only took 3 Semesters of Law, Rode The Streets and Was The Law. I was damn good at it.:cool:

Are you good at anything?

Dont bug me, was that the jist of one of your posts?:confused:

Cant stand it can you when someone is seemingly better or wont put up with crap from a snot nose child.

OOOOWIE show Me The Way Home Big Mama, toot the horn of life!

Kiss Rudeys ass and go along with Him. So it doesnt seem to bother You and some of Your Ilk for what He places on GC? Oh, what about Poor CASHMONEY, then also ,mis-understood Poster.

I tried to keep this between you and me in a PM, but you decided to place it on GC. What a Twit. God, I hope you never have the chance to be a legal Rep. What could you do for a Client?:(

Watch TV and see what they do, maybe you can learn something!

Sorry Fellow GCers for this Vent from someone who cannot take - or + when posting to Her via PM or putting something in confidence and puts it upon site!:(

Question, did you have a Happy New Year Eve? Did You feel Like It The Next Day?:eek:

Oh, Danielleiette, My Microwave is Squeeky Clean, want to come on down?:p

Oh, E C, My Table Manners are Impecable, I know what all Forks, Spoons and Knifes are for!:cool:

Damn bet you most on here dont know!!!!?????

I Love a Parade!

First, WTF is this about? Why the personal attacks?

You made the microwave thread, it was a joke.

Tom, it didn't seem like Kddani was poking fun at you at all. You might want to apologize for over reacting :)

Table manners have gone out the window. The undergrad chapter at my university does a program about table manners that was always well attended. But what it all comes down to is where you taught these skills at home.

My grandmother is Miss. Manners and she taught me everything about manners in general, plus before I went to college gave me an old manners book, which I still refer to this day.

My biggest pet peeve is when a young man walks into a building and does not take his hat off.

en resumen...wrap up
 

Good post, Taualumna, kinda sums it up.
You all made some good points, and while we cannot indeed teach all cultures' table manners any more than their gestures,
we can know our own.
The tragic thing, though, is to watch someone implode, commit
suicide, at the table...and they often do not even know it.
Us greeks strive to be a cut above, and if we have not learned
the proper procedures for dining by the time we get to college,
our GLO's can sure be of help.
The fact remains, though--a slob is still a slob.

Joke, if it was a joke, I will take it as such!

But from other posts, that is why I did not take it that way.

James, I take what you say as constructive Words.

Yes, you are right, I should Not Be a Friggen Micro Wave Slob and lt some know about it!

Ah Well, life goes on doesnt it!;)

Oh, My question is, did I mention anyone person in perticular? No, but that person must have felt like they had to respond.

Hm, wonder why?:rolleyes:

Oh, Innuendos must have made it very open. I guess?:confused:

But it shows on posting dont it!:)

Um, hello, reread your post, you mentioned me by name, well, kinda name "Danielleiette" and talked about law school.

For being one of the older members on this board, please grow up.

There was a guy in one of my classes last year who is a teacher. He said that he had the same problem with a teacher he was working with while student-teaching. The school he worked at said that students weren't allowed to wear non-religious headgear indoors, but he let a kid wear his ball cap anyway, because he thought that it was a "dumb rule". I guess his beliefs kind of reflect himself...he's kind of scruffy looking...

This is going to sound like a "darn these kids today" post, but....

My alumnae sisters and I have often thought that the collegiates in our nearby chapters would benefit from some sort of charm school/etiquette class/etc. I hesitate to call it "etiquette class" because in addition to proper table manners, it could include other things like how to give a good handshake, "what not to wear" for various occasions (we saw far too many exposed midriffs and thong backs at the last province meeting), and so forth.

We are by no means experts, we just want to help give them a coat of polish which seems to be lacking among their peers these days. The question is, how to suggest this to them without insulting them? Also, how should we present the information? I would really appreciate any suggestions.

See now my biggest pet peeve is a man who walks on the wrong side of a women... For those men who don't know, the man should always walk on the outside...