GC Parents---need advice
 

Help!!

Need some advice. Mr. trojangal and I have a 4 year old daughter and I wanted to get some parenting advice from those of you who are more experienced at parenting.

Our little girl is a smart girl..intelligent, but also a real smart butt. Lately, she has been hitting it pretty hard with backtalk, etc. Today at school, she misbehaved pretty much most of the day, and worst of all, laughed at her teacher. I was angry and also horrified. She will "smart back" to both of us..all this really seems to have happened in the last 2-3 weeks.

She doesn't want to listen, follow directions, etc, and really has an attitude. She knows the difference between being good and bad, and when asked why she does something "Just because...".

So..tonight I started some loss of privileges...no tv, toys, etc. Just dinner, bath, and bed.

My question: What are some good ways to deal with this? We're not crazy about spanking, but have done it a few times ( this usually gets her more fired up..)

I don't have children yet, but speaking as a former kid ;) threats that Santa wouldn't come to our house if we were bad always worked on my brother and I around this time of year! Good luck...

Amanda Dyer
Delta Gamma

You should watch Dr. Phil. This season, he's doing this whole "Family First" thing where he focuses on the family and how to help every one.

He talks about taking away privelages, like sending a kid to their bedrooms. But the bedrooms can't be like Toys R' Us in there.

Spank her. Works every time.

Not really.

We all hear a lot about the "terrible twos," but they were a breeze campared to behavior of a four year old.

Both of our beautiful little daughters turned into raging bitches at about four. Our son was a handful about then as well, but not as bad as the girls.

My guess is that it's a chemical inbalance or the junior version of raging hormones.

They are beginning to feel the slightest bit of independence at that point and want to test it. I remember one of ours telling me, "You're not the boss of me."

I don't know of anyone who really has an answer.

NOOOOOOO! He's TEH ANTI-CHRIST!

Tell her that she's going to hell if she doesn't straighten up. That actually worked for me.....a little while.

Re: GC Parents---need advice
 

Sounds just like my 3 year old niece. Terrible 2s were ok, but 3s--- dayum.

Re: GC Parents---need advice
 

Trojangal...

I don't have kids but I have experience with kids...maybe I can help...

First I wonder if something has changed in the last 2-3 weeks in your daughter's environment...school changes? home changes? arguments between you and Mr. Trojangal? recent move? announcement of new baby? etc. If you can determine what's changed, you can address your daughter's needs and discuss this with her.

Second...taking away privileges is a good technique along with timeouts. Make sure the consequence matches the behavior. It wouldn't make sense to take away a doll she hasn't played with in a year. Give her the choice. Tell her "I need you to talk to me/teacher nicely. If you can't, then I will take away "X" for {designated time frame that she can understand}." Then she makes the choice. If she smarts off, you need to be consistent and follow through no matter how much she cries/complains/etc. Consistency is the key here.

You need to find privileges also that mean something to her. If there's a favorite toy, video, etc. that she likes to play with then she'll be more responsive to this than something she doesn't care about.

Hope this gives you some food for thought...

My son is also around that age group....just turned 5. I take away privliges and say until you can act better you dont get nothing!

I agree sending them to a toys r us bedroom is not the correct msg......... no toys no tv no christmas and its bed time. i threated santa and he snaps back into shape real quickly.

my mom was really big on having us write essays. Whenever we mouthed off/whenever we misbehaved, in addition to getting sent to our rooms, we had to write an essay on what we did wrong, why we did it, and what we were going to do to fix it. No essay? no coming out of your room, no tv, no video games, no desert. I guess it was a pretty effective punishment, I can only remember writing 3 of those essays (incidentally my mother still has them!) . Your daughter is kinda young for this, but keep it in mind.

Someone told me that her grandmother used to make her go to confession when she mouthed off and made her talk to "the mean priest". She also told me that he wasn't mean at all and would talk to her like a normal person! hehe

As a 4 year old?

"Your daughter is kinda young for this, but keep it in mind. "

did you read the whole post???

My daughter's roughest age was 4 also. I remember someone (my mom I think!) saying "4 is two TWICE". Consistency, loss of privileges worked with her. They are trying to be more independent, so give her choices WHEN APPROPRIATE. We would have battles over what she was going to wear. So I would get out two outfits the night before and ask her which one she wanted to wear. If she wanted to do something that was against the rules, I'd give her two other options. You can do THIS or THIS. I also had to tell her "I will not talk to you while you are this upset" to avoid power struggles. She thought it was a good idea to try to bite me while I was carrying her to her time out spot, but she bit my diamond instead and cracked a tooth. That put an end to biting.

Above all else, you need to do your best to remain calm but firm. A calm but firm voice helps keep it from escalating. And, don't give in to the temper tantrums. Her dad used to give in to the temper tantrums and she learned to work that, especially after we were divorced!

actually I believe that punishment started around 5 or 6 for my brother and I. Mums was gung ho about us being able to read and write before we entered kindergarten.

I love that--I've been thinking the same thing about my 7 year old--since she was about 3. Bitchy is the only way to describe her ocassionally challenging behavior...she can be so adorable & sweet, but man! I feel sorry for her future boyfriends/husband.

I have learned that I have to keep her busy, and try to get her to be logical about things...teach her to think about her actions & ask how she'd feel if other people did that to her. She usually repents, but the bitchyness/sas always returns.

DeltAlum-will it get better, or am I doomed to deal with it until she moves out? I can only imagine what a smart mouth she will have at 16.

I don't have kids but....
 

I hear consistency is key. If you do X, I am going to not let you do Z. And then follow through. But, I'm not sure how to teach the girl the underlying message that what she is doing hurts other people, and that is something that goes beyond losing your favorite toy for a week. Maybe you can talk to her about it?

No kids yet, but as a former hellion, this is what scared the bejesus out of me:

Dad removes belt, folds it in half, snaps it together (makes the smacking noise) and says "you want some of this boy?".

Yep, worked for me.

My sister does this thing were she rolls her eyes and it pisses me off BAD. However, she picked it up from me.

COSIGN. Big time.

Our 3 1/2 year old daughter has been acting up a lot recently as well. So, we called Santa (Grandma), and talked out loud in front of her...that she wasn't behaving, etc.....it worked. "Santa said you better start behaving like a nice young lady or he might not bring any presents this year" - the look on her face and the reaction was priceless.

However, this is only a short-term solution (you gotta love the holidays for providing this outlet!), but, we have also found that if you completely IGNORE the bad behavior - no response at all, other than "if you'll speak nicely, I'll listen to you"...also works, but takes time, and patience to be effective.

We've noticed when she really goes off the bratty deep-end is when she is very tired. So we do the ignore treatment until she is somewhat respectful, or we load her into the van to drive to the "store"...in reality we're just burning miles until she conks out...then right back home.

trojangal - You just described my daughter perfectly...she actually turns 4 tomorrow! I sometimes feel like a live with the devil. She is so cute and sweet but then she just snaps...the screaming fits are awful. I have tried spanking her but I have found that it does not work with her it only makes things worse. The biggest thing that bugs me right now is her being so bossy. If she needs something she will scream at me from the other side of the house and will not stop screaming until I respond to her...I know what you all are thinkng, just ignore her...I have tried that but I promise you she can scream longer than I can mentally handle it. I have tried to walk back to her room and calmly explain to her that I am not going to respond to her when she screams and close her door and walk away...but that turns into her beating on her door and walls and then opening her door and throwing her toys down the hallway. It gets really bad.
I have excepted that this is a phase and she will out grow it but I really don't like the person that I am turning into because of this. I feel like I am always mad and having to bitch and complain and fuss all of the time...chronic bad mood! I do hope things get better soon. I used to say how the "terrible twos" were a breeze but my mother-in-law would laugh and say oh don't worry she'll get there soon enough. And she also loves to say that "It never gets any better, they simply go from one bad phase to another". So good luck and remember that there are others out there who feel your pain!!! And by the way, if you find a miracle solution, please let me know...I'll even be willing to pay big bucks for tip.

Our daughter did this, actually, so did one of our sons. We simply picked up the toys, put them on top of the refrigerator or mantle...somewhere they can see them, but can't get to them.

We tell them once they calm down and start acting nice, they can have the toy back. Sometimes the toy will stay there a little longer if their attitude is especially bad.

It works. They see it, and can't play with it, and you remind them why - they start (slowly) to modify their behavior.

Like the Santa call...sometimes it also helps (if the child is emotionally close to them) to threaten to call the grandparents (or uncle/cousin)...etc....that also brings good results. It becomes a team effort.

We have three kids, so we no longer get to do "man-to-man" parenting...it's "zone defense." Once you find something that works, you stick with it.

Isn't it good that we don't remember being such brats when we were children?

I'm sure you will get through it and your kids will be wonderful, happy, caring adults!!!

Just out of curiosity . . what do you guys do to lower and prevent your children's stress and anxiety levels? As in diet or whatever?

The reason I ask is that a lot of what you are describing are experimental coping mechanisms for stress.

Remember that kids feel stress and anxiety through diet issues and environmental pressures the same way adults do but have less sophisticated coping mechanism as well less control.

I am sure you can find adult parallels in "acting out" behaviors among your friends and acquaintances.

Something to think about for those of you that never payed attention in psych class :p

Well, reducing sugar intake (hard around holidays, I'm sure) will more than likely reduce the post-sugar rush crabbies, as will reducing caffeine intake.

As far as what to do to reduce stress/anxiety especially around this time of the year...because i'm not a mom I can only take a stab at it. But make sure there's quiet time. I'm talking no shopping/going out, no loud music playing on the stereo, TV down pretty low or off in general. Make time for quiet activities (board games in which the WHOLE family participates, story time, craft time, something that involves as little hectic outside input as possible yet still keeps them moving/active). I can only speculate on this, but I think that sometimes kids start to feel "left out" during the holidays because parents and older siblings get very busy (shopping, letters, presents, cleaning, cooking, parties) and the only way to get any type of attention is to act out (I know i was guilty when I was little).

I can agree that consistency is a key -- but the truth is that I don't think there is any real "answer." Kids are different and parents are as well.

What "worked" (if anything really did -- other than growing) for one, didn't for another.

Good luck.

Sorry, I didn't see this until tonight.

I don't know whether it ever gets better -- or just gets different.

I can't really think of any age that didn't have it's challenges -- but that's what you sign up for when you have kids.

In the end, the good parts at least equal the bad ones -- and often outnumber them dramatically.

I kind of like the essay idea. Since she's four, maybe have her draw pictures of how she feels/why she's angry/etc.......have her open up a bit....I dunno...I'm not trained in child psychology nor do I have kids of my own

You need to find her "currency"(yes I watch too much Dr. Phil), those one or two things that she treasures above all else, whether it be TV, a toy or privilges such as picking out her own clothes, etc.. (I remember mine when I was little was dresses[no idea why]...my mom always threatened to make me go 2 weeks without wearing a dress, that made me straighten up). Also from memory of being a terror sometimes DO NOT EVER a)give in to a tantrum or b)let her play mommy vs. daddy. My parents did both...mom gave into tantrums and dad let me do what mom didn't.

Does the lack of response mean that most parents don't have an organized framework to minimize stress in their children?

ITs a little after the fact if you punish them for incorrect coping mechanisms.

Also, if you are able to keep their stress and anxiety minimal you may be able to stop other issues from developing later such as ADD depression and anxiety.

Some outstanding clinical answers.

Call me after you've all raised some kids and tell me how they worked.

Thats an unfair response Delta alum. I am surprised that you would be flippant that way.

If a person goes into parenting without a developed perspective of the effects of stress and anxiety on a child then its an issue that probably will never be addressed or understood . . . or it will be too late and the child will grow up needing medication.

To spell it out a little cleaner. We know that sleep is crucial for kids and adults, so many parents develop a system that encourage enough sleep. Bed times, no sugar or soda before bed etc.

Over the years we have learned that diet can have major effect of mood. In fact it can be a determinant of it. So a saavy parent devises ways to keep the amount of sugar in a child's diet low, and provides nutrients that aren't readily available. The better you are at that, the more knowlege you have, the more likely you are to develop systems that give a good and consistent diet to a child.

So why not stress? Are there ways to diminish the amount of stress and anxiety a kid feels? Can you incoroporate those things into your "system?" Absolutely.

Its a major thing issue that is mostly overlooked in both kids and adullts. And yet there is a huge body og knowledge out there on how dehabiliting stress is over time.

*shrug* I guess its not something taught in parent school.

I think the responses that suggested you take away privileges, toys, etc. are fine. Talking to them at that age, well, there's only so much they understand. I believe she understands right from wrong, but trying to rationalize with a 4-year old, well, it ain't gonna work. At 4, she is asserting her independence, and also probably learing some stuff in school.

And this may just be the beginning. My almost 10 year old (she'll be 10 on Friday) has a smart mouth as well, but she gets a lot of that from me. Kids pick up on the things we do and say, and I didn't realize just how much I said until I heard it repeated from her. Usually though, all it took (and still takes) is "the look".

Now Pink Bug, you sound like you have a problem. Believe me, my child was no angel, but the screaming and throwing toys thing? Never happened in my house. Wanna talk about taking things away? Next time she throws toys at you, get the garbage can, load it up, and take them away. You can temporarily put them in the garage or something, but she needs to learn that throwing toys and screaming are not the way.

Also, when you "threaten", follow through. They'll soon enough pick up on what you say and what you really mean.

THIS is what scares me about ever becoming a parent, and I know that I also have to mature TONS before I have a kid. As you all know, I'm a smartass to no end and have no problem calling people out if they say or do stupid things. I can just imagine a mini-Munch calling me out on something after seeing me do the same thing. :(

Four year olds are in the heart of Erikson's stage 3 of psychological development:

Stage 3: Early Childhood -- Age 2 to 6

Crisis: Initiative vs. Guilt
Description: Children have newfound power at this stage as they have developed motor skills and become more and more engaged in social interaction with people around them. They now must learn to achieve a balance between eagerness for more adventure and more responsibility, and learning to control impulses and childish fantasies.
Positive outcome: If parents are encouraging, but consistent in discipline, children will learn to accept without guilt, that certain things are not allowed, but at the same time will not feel shame when using their imagination and engaging in make-believe role plays.
Negative outcome: If not, children may develop a sense of guilt and may come to believe that it is wrong to be independent.


Therefore, to some extent, it is their JOB to find out what the limits are and the way they do it is by testing. Firmness and consistency, telling the child their behavior is unacceptable (making clear that THEY are ok, but their behavior is not) will work, but they will take time.

James: There was nothing in her post to indicate that the child is under any unusual stress or anxiety. I do agree that anytime a child's behavior changes drastically, it is worth evaluating whether there is some other cause like a new school, new care giver, stress in the familial home, etc. It is also important, once the child is calm, to tell them what it is OK to do when they are mad or frustrated. It is ok to be angry or frustrated, but it is not ok to throw your toys. If you get really mad, you can punch a pillow (for example.. my personal fave was ripping up newspapers, of course, they also knew they had to pick them up afterward).

I have been thinking more about how I handled things back then (it's been a while now!) and I do know that I got creative rather than setting up power struggles. Somehow, singing the Barney clean up song got them to pick up toys. We also sometimes had a race to see if they could beat their best pick up time, and I would time them. Refusing to get up in the morning meant early bed time (because, logically, if they couldn't get up when I needed them to, they probably weren't getting enough sleep). Refusal to go to bed usually (and still does!) results in me saying "Well I'm going to bed, so you'll have to tuck yourself in" and voom, they're in bed, because they don't want to tuck themselves in! I also tend to engage in "silly parenting". "Momma, will you put my shoes on?" "I'm sorry honey, they don't fit me".

Keep those suggestions coming!!

Thanks for everything so far! There are some great ideas here and several to think about.

We are pretty good about controlling her diet and how much sugar/caffeine she has every day. Her amount of sleep is pretty consistent as well.

Major battles: getting dressed in the morning ( once we are dressed, she wants to change or does not want to get dressed)

"smart mouth disease"--tried playing the Christmas present card on her this weekend...( her daddy did) and she turned to him and said "Fine..I'll take your Christmas presents back then..." :eek:

Her school uses a "behavior chart" where the students get a sticker on their individual chart each day they don't have to have a "timeout", are following direction, sitting, etc. I've been thinking of using this at home.

This very very very seasoned mom thinks that there's been some wonderful advice in this thread. However, the line above by DeltAlum is classic and I want all you young parents to remember it!

Sorry to offend, but it wasn't meant to be flippant.

Not being genious, but reasonably bright, both Mrs. DA and I read about every book and suggestion we could find -- tried what made sense -- and discovered the very little really worked the way it was supposed to.

I think the reason is that every human being is different and isn't affected the same way by "fixes" from studies.

It just isn't that easy. That's all.

Here are some ideas for your individual troubles:

Then her think she has the power. Choose 2 outfits that she would like and you approve of and then let her make the choice. She thinks she has the control, but actually you hold the parameters to her control!

If she smarts off, fine...then really take her presents out from under the tree and put them away, as if you have all intentions to return them. Whatever "threats" you use, you HAVE to follow-through! If you don't then the only lesson she learns is that she can manipulate you because you're not following-through anyway.

This is a GREAT tool to use at home! You can set up reward systems that every time she gets "X" number of stickers, she gets a reward...whether it be the reinstatment of a previously revoked privilege or a token that she's been wanting...

Good luck to you! You've got a lot of great suggestions coming your way!