Dear Abby today
 

Mon, Nov. 29, 2004

Dear Abby | Her daughter was attacked

DEAR ABBY: My 16-year-old daughter went to a party at a frat house where she was given a great deal to drink. Feeling "woozy," she went outside. One of the "boys" she had been talking to went with her and suggested she go back to his room to lie down. She had known this fellow before that night and trusted him. She was drunk, and he had sex with her. It was her first time. She claims she tried to make him stop, but he wouldn't, and she couldn't make him.

Shouldn't the young man be punished in some way? I feel something should be done. Would this constitute date rape?

from Confused in Virginia

DEAR CONFUSED: You're darn right it was date rape. And the "something" you should do is call the nearest rape crisis center and get help for your daughter. You should also inform the police.

What was her 16-year-old daughter doing partying at a frat house? I mean, that sucks that that happened to her if what she told her mom is true, but she shouldn't have been there in the first place.

that's a vvvvvvvvvvvvvery interesting story.

33 and georgiagirls, absolutly, just what the hell was She doing there and even out on the streets with her mother not knowing where she was.

Wonder if she had all of the toilet paper in her bra giving her bigger boobies like Dean Wormers daughter did?:rolleyes:

Help, I have been raped when she spread her legs and got layed (?) and scared!:rolleyes:

What kind of person writes to Dear abby to ask if her daughter was raped lol?

Its probably not a true story but if it were . . . it would be understandable why her daughter was out and about like that. . .. look at the mom.

Dear Confused:


You are an idiot.


Sincerely, Abby


// Not to say that I have no sympathy for the 16 year old who got raped, but to echo sentiments already said, this girl should not have gotten herself in this situation in the first place.

No kidding.... not only that..but why in the heck would a mother let her 16-year-old daughter go to a frat party anyway!?!?!

If this girl really did get raped, that is definitely not a good thing. At the same time, I hate that the tone of this letter makes her daughter look all innocent - I mean, she was "given" a great deal to drink... people have this thing called a brain which gives us the ability to think for ourselves....she could have refused the drinks and thus prevented her from getting in that terrible situation. I'm not saying what happened was her fault, but it could have been prevented.

Not that I don't agree with you that the mother is an idiot ;) but if this situation is a true story it's a slippery slope to say the girl got herself in the situation. It must be said that bad choices don't equal a license to have sex with someone who says no. Stepping down from the soapbox now...:)

yea i totally agree... if the story is in fact true, i'm not saying it's the girls fault or anything... that is about as smart as saying "she was asking for it".. which is really a terrible thing to say, and that is not at all the point I was trying to make.

i'm just trying to make a point that the situation itself could have been prevented - maybe I just grew up very sheltered, but what on earth is a 16-yr old doing at a frat party in the first place? and how does a 16 yr old already know and "trust" a college age guy enough to go to his room? when i was in high school, sure i went parties, but they were all with my high-school buddies and i knew better than to take drinks given to me by random people i didn't know very well - there's no telling what could have been in there, ya know? Maybe it's because the colleges around my hometown didn't have open parties... i don't know.. but IMHO 16 is really young to be partying out at fraternity houses. I am not condoning what happened at all because it's NOT ok, and it's very true that it could have happened to any girl there whether she was 16, 19 or 34. I just thought it was a little odd for the parent in the letter to make it sound like it was ok for her daughter to be there even though she was very young and was willingly drinking the drinks given to her.

Once again, not saying it was her fault or it was all because of her bad choices, because raping someone is NOT ok in any circumstance.

i totally agree...i figured no one actually meant "she totally deserved to be raped"! but you never know, some people do actually think (i went to college with some of these people) that if a girl goes to a party and drinks, if she gets taken advantage of then it is her own fault. a girl in one of my classes in college who was the victim of a date rape type situation made a very good point though. she said that in her situation looking back on it she knows that her choices influenced what happened and she had to take responsibility for those choices in order to deal with her situation. it's an interesting perspective that i had never thought of before

I very recently wrote a poem about this (I am on a slam poetry kick)...No means no means no, but how many times that night did the girl say yes?

WHAT THE FUCK IS A 16 YEAR OLD'S MOTHER DOING LETTING HER DAUGHTER OUT AT A FRATERNITY PARTY! good lord! "given" drinks? Im sure they were forced down her damn throat. this woman needs to open her damn eyes!

For those of you who are asking how a 16-year-old could have been at a fraternity party, and how she could have known one of the brothers, and how her mother didn't know about it: Can't you easily imagine a situation like this?

Just think: girl grows up in a college town. A friend from high school, a few years older than her, graduates, stays in town to go to college, and joins said fraternity. That's how the girl knows someone in the fraternity. She tells her mom that she's going to go spend the night over at her friend Suzy's house, but instead they go to the fraternity party, which they know about through the friend in the fraternity. It all goes from there.

Maybe it's just because I know a lot of people at my uni who also grew up in this town, but it sounds like a common enough situation to me. Doesn't make it right, just means that it does happen.

It does not matter how she was dressed. It does not matter if she went to his room consentually and starting kissing him.

WHEN A WOMAN SAYS NO, IT MEANS NO.

I can't believe you'd post something like this, Tom. Way to perpetuate a double standard.

What was a 16 year old doing at a frat party? "Mom, I'm just going to visit my older brother/sister and we'll stay in their room all night." I went to college parties when I was in high school. Just because her mom didn't know she was there doesn't mean it's okay for her to get raped.

I go to school in a town where there isn't much to do. All of the local high school kids like to try to get into college or fraternity parties. "It's like totally like cool like. Now Mary Sue, tell you're mom you're gonna be at my house, I'll tell my mom I'm gonna be at Ellie May's. Ellie May will tell her mom she's gonna be at Katie Beth's." You get the picture. If it's an unofficial fraternity party, it's not too hard for a high school student to slip in "unnoticed". The girl may be thinking how cool, a fraternity guy is hitting on me. The girl agrees to go up to his room. The guy may lean in for a kiss, wanting more, while the girl thinks oh goodie a kiss from a college guy. One thing leads to another.... bada bing, bada bang, bada boom..... girl gets raped. I don't think it's unfathomable. However, this does not explain the stupidity of the mother....

I think the more important question is why the hell did the frat guys let her stay? at my house if we new/found out/were suspcious that a girl was under 18 she'd be out the door quick.

Also I'd be interested to know how the "no" was said. Was it said playfully and on the third try she said "oh alright" for all we know if she was that drunk maybe she didn't say no at all, maybe she just felt guilty or someshit the next morning. Maybe she had been seeing that guy for a while and got pissed and decided to do something crazy because she may in fact be crazy. I'm not insensitive to rape, BUT something about this story sounds a little too much like an after school special and a little too drama queen for me.

I think from the evidence presented in this I would say that the two main mistakes were 1. Letting her in/stay and 2. giving her booze. As far as the rape goes I wouldn't take it for its word right off the bat.

Free Kobe !

I went to tons of college parties when I was in high school. I don't really think my parents are idiots for not realizing where I was. Kids can be really sneaky.

No blame for a rape can be placed anywhere but on the rapist.

I agree with GeekyPenguin. No means no. Legally, even if the girl says yes to everything else and says no to sex, it's rape. Especially since she's a minor. I forgot the exact percentage, but I remember at Take Back the Night when they were saying how a large percentage of rape victims know their attackers.

Wowza. That's potentially one of the most sexist, chauvinistic, offensive comments I've ever read. Add that one to the Earp hall of fame.

Fact is, we DON'T know if the girl was raped. All we have is her word. And, being the fact that I work with female survivors of domestic violence (which, believe it or not, does include MARITAL RAPE) I'm inclined to believe her. Sure, we all hear about the "girl who cried rape". But, in reality, that occurs a very small fraction of the time (a study I read stated that the FBI crime statistics showed false rape reporting occured in 2% of cases, though it has been acknowledged that this number does fluctuate according to various reports, 2% being the lowest I've seen, and 8.6% being the highest).

What was she doing at a frat house? Why did her mother "let" her go? Why was she drinking? WHAT DOES IT MATTER? Let's all think back to when we were 16. I don't know about you, but I went to fraternity parties. My mom knew I was going, too (my boyfriend was a member of the house). Even if she didn't-have you ever tried to tell a 16 year old no? Rarely works-they'll figure out a way around it.

Back to the fact of the matter-if she had sex without giving consent, she was raped. No woman "deserves" to be forced to engage in sexual activity against her will, I don't care if she's walking down the street naked. To minimize her experience is only further victimizing her.

LOL.

You can't? Because I can.

As always, I agree with the "no means no" crowd and thank you all for expressing yourself more eloquently than I can.

well shit I guess I'm the asshole for not thinking it is wrong for someone under the age of 18 to be at a fraternity party (unless they are a registered student at the school, like in my case, i was 17 but I was a student at EMU). I must also be an asshole because I didnt go to frat parties untill I was old enough or in college. But back to the point. I don't care who was doing what when they were 16. So a few people say they were out partying at frat houses at 16, are we showing off or proving a point? If you're proving a point than its a bad point bc NO MINORS SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN FRATERNITY HOUSES! No, this doesn't make up for her being raped by saying she is some dumb girl who got drunk and had sex with a fraterity guy. But was she really raped? Maybe that is just what she told her parents to get out of shit. I have heard of people who will claim rape and get someone in a LOT of shit, just so they don't have to own up to what they did wrong. Maybe she doesn't want to say, "Yea mom, I did have sex with him. I am only 16, but I got drunk and had sex with some guy at a fraternity party." I'm not saying this is the case, but maybe...

i agree with sigphisunshine !

actually i made that point earlier, but i guess it got passed over.

Bottom line is this, try and put yourself into my shoes. As a male it's frightning to think that any time you hook up or have sex with a girl when your both drunk and such she could EASILY call rape at any time, no real questions asked and there really isnt much defense for it. Life is scarey when you think that at any time you could be screwed over out of anything, even spite. I'm not saying this is the case, but as a male I gotta at least stick up for our species a bit and give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

HornyToad and SiPhi, I understand what you are both saying. SigPhi, I apologize if I came off as calling you an "asshole", that was not my intent. Fact of the matter is, e DON'T know if she was actually raped, or what occured the night of the alleged assault. And since the girl obviously didn't/has not reported this to the authorities, it's doubtful that anyone other than her and the guy involved will ever know what really went down. It's a case of he said/she said.

My post was in reference to the implications that she "deserved" it, and the automatic assumption that she cried rape b/c she was embarassed/wanted to get out of trouble, etc (and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone who made the implications, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter). I'm not denying that cases like this do happen. We've all seen them on the news, etc. But those represent a very small percentage of reported rape cases. Having worked in social services for what feels like a very long time (:)), I am conditioned to believe victims until proven otherwise. And I admitidally do live in a bubble.

As far as her being at the fraternity house, and people responding that they went to fraternity parties in high school, I think it was just to prove the point that, whether or not it's right, it happens. Knowing what I know now, 10 years later, would I have gone to a fraternity party? Hell no. But I was young. I was dating a guy who I wanted to like me. All my friends were going. And I felt safe in the situation at the time. Maybe this girl was in similar circumstances. Maybe she just went along to be cool. Who knows? We know very little about this case, other than the limited information the mother provided. Should she have been allowed in? From a risk management stand point, HELL NO. But maybe no one knew she was underage. Maybe she had a fake ID. Not all schools have registered parties (I know mine didn't) and anyone, really, could roll in off the street.

And it IS scary. I remember hearing once (and this could have been an urban myth) that in certain states, a woman was not legally capable of giving consent after ONE alcoholic beverage. Whether or not this is true, I'm not sure, but it still does play on your mind. And I agree, it would be scary to be a guy and have that way on your mind. My only advice is to tread very, VERY carefully with girls you might be hooking up with.

I don't know -- maybe this is just me, but hey, if I went to a frat party at age 16 and willingly had sex with a guy, I wouldn't tell my mom about it. What would be the point of telling her, when I know she's going to disapprove, unless it was unconsentual?

Add to this the fact that this girl was 16 and the frat boy was probably not, so even if it was consentual, in some states it could be prosecuted as statuatory rape as well, if the mom chose to take it that far.

As for the post after this: What part of the law do y'all not understand? When a girl is intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol or drugs, in most states she is not legally able to give consent. Even if she says it's okay, for all practical purposes, having sex with her is breaking the law. Now is this necessarily very practical, fair, or romantic? No, but it's the law, and you're the one that broke it -- so if some girl decides to press charges for date rape, you can't pass yourself off as the victim.

I have worked with kids who were worried that they'd gotten pregnant under such a circumstance and were, therefore, having to tell their mother about it. Some attempted suicide instead, leading them to be admitted to the hospital, when the story then came out.

ETA: I found a list of legal age of consent and am SHOCKED that it is 16 in many states (but not in Virginia, where this letter was from.. where it is 18)

16 AND drunk? Any college age man who touches a drunk 16 year old is a fool.

SirHornyToad: Yes, you are in a precarious position if you sleep with someone who is drunk. You really need to understand that the vast majority of women put some value in sex and probably believe that if you're sleeping with them, you are in a relationship with them. Yes, there are some women who are into one night stands, but it's not the majority and most will feel violated if it's only a one night stand and they didn't know it ahead of time. Out of self preservation, you would do best to not engage in such behavior. Women are rarely looking for a one night stand, they are looking for a relationship no matter how drunk they are. When they wake up the next morning and realize that you aren't seeing it as they do, they will definitely be upset. Since you know you are at risk for having "raped" a drunk woman, then don't sleep with drunk women.

Dee

Here's what bugs me. The letter is written too cluelessly to be real. Whaddya mean, was it rape? Of course it was rape and what adult would seriously write a letter like that? On top of that, no adult I know,except one--uses words like "fellow" and "great deal".

I think it sounds exactly like a Barb V letter, like she created this situation just so she could get Dear Abby to agree that it was rape and then she's going to quote it in some lame book about the supposed evils of the Greek system.

It doesn't matter the tone of the NO. Once a woman says it, even vise versa...the other person stops IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!

If she/he didn't not mean then they will let you know if it's okay to keep going. I'm sorry but tone of voice is not an acceptable excuse.

As the letter reads it was rape. She explicitly stated her daughter tried to get him to stop.

It doesn't matter she was 16.
It doesn't matter she was drunk.
It doesn't matter it was at a frat party.

They were engaged in sexual activity, and she tried to get him to stop. If he didn't, that's rape.

EXACTLY.

What does everyone have a problen with in understanding this?

Some 16 year old girls look very mature for their age, while some 18 year olds look very young. None of the frat parties I ever went to--at 16, 17, 18, or 19--ever carded me or asked for my college ID. A 16-year old at a frat party doesn't shock me at all. But, in the warped-ass world that some of you live in, that gives some frat boy carte blanche to rape her.

Tom, as usual you say some of the most assinine, stupid stuff that makes me ashamed that you feel the need to post your letters in your sig, and I wish you'd get de-modded so I could block your drunken ramblings.

to those who say he shouldn't have slept with a 16 year old:

who's to say he knew her age?

i know when i was in high school you didn't tell boys at fraternity parties that you weren't in college, because then they wouldn't talk to you.

it may have been rape, but i doubt she was little miss innocent through the entire ordeal.

That's not a defense to statutory rape. Call it fair, call it unfair, but that's one thing that I certainly remember from first year criminal law.

While the scenario presented in this letter = rape, I hope to God that there's no way this letter is true. To have a mother that would write a letter to Dear Abby to ask if this is rape, that girl is truly unfortunate. Not to mention having a mother who would allow her daughter to go to a fraternity party, to stay out that late! etc etc.

I wasn't saying it was a defense, because I totally agree that it isn't, but merely that people are all "oh well he was stupid for sleeping with a minor in the first place" when in all likelihood he probably had no idea that's what he was doing.

Rape is not about the No is about consent. A woman (or a man for that matter) cannot give consent to sex. Maybe this was my college's interp, or maybe its a WI thing. But we were taught that you actually have to say YES to sex. And honestly, as a fraternity guy I'd go by that. What does it matter, in the long run, to not hook up that night? If sex is THAT important, find a girlfriend or someone who is sober and CAN consent.

I'm sorry but this whole 'she's a drama queen' bit just makes me sick. You were not in the room that night, what indication do you have that this girl is not to be believed? Do you know the guy? Just because a young girl is a little wild, it does not give the rights to any horny little boy that comes along to do as she pleases. If she says yes, (though she's a minor in this case) fine, but if there is any no, or hesitation on her part it is just wrong.

Also, do you know what actually happens to that girl who claims she was raped? The fight to get someone to believe you, to make decisions regarding prosecution, the exam, facing all your friends, and then facing him and his brothers/friends. It can be the worst experience for a young woman to go through. /soapbox

Definately.

This whole thread is a great example of how people make snap judgements of a girl who was raped. I mean, we got a minimal information and half the people hear are trying to find a way to sound the all clear for the guy.

----

The fact is that unless you were seriously hurt during a rape, reporting it and going to court will have your reputation pulled through the mud. What you wore will be analysed. Any flirting you did that night will rule against you. Bruises and signs of struggle will be discounted as "foreplay". You will become a social pariah.

Why would this mother write Dear Abby? Well, I think this thread shows how unwilling society is to acknowledge date and marital rape. The mother could honestly be confused. Maybe Dear Abby wasn't the right way to solve her question, but that doesn't make it any less likely.

One more time:

As the letter reads, it is rape. If you think the latter is false or wrong, that's different. To be honest, I'd love to think that this letter was written by some 13 year old girls who just wanted to see if they could get in Dear Abby - because then no girl was raped.

This is true, but I think that if the girl in the letter had gotten pregnant from the encounter, the letter-writer would have mentioned it. Instead it sounds like the daughter told her mother pretty soon after the event. I don't know any 16-year-old girls who would do that if the sex was consentual. Some of them might if they had gotten pregnant, but they would definitely wait until they knew for sure whether or not they were pregnant.

My personal thoughts on Dear Abby are that she doesn't usually use letters she's gotten from people (and obviously when she does, she edits them severely). Most of the time, I think, she takes scenarios that are important or common enough that she gets asked questions about them fairly often and either makes up a letter or cobbles several of them together. Of course, this is all just a guess on my part -- but you know, it's kind of like those advice columns in Seventeen magazine. I could never believe that any teenage girl would write in to ask Seventeen, "This boy is flirting with me and I think he's going to ask me to Prom, but I hate him! How can I turn him down gently????" when, you know, it would take a month or two for their answer to appear in the magazine, way too late for any help. The answers in published advice columns aren't for the people who write the letters -- they're for other people who are going through the same situation.

For those of you who are saying that this letter doesn't sound believable because "why would you even have to ask if this is rape? of course it is!" -- look at this thread. There are plenty of people who would hear about a scenario like this and immediately dismiss it as probably being consentual. And sadly enough, there are still plenty of people who think of rape as ONLY being some stranger jumping out of the bushes and attacking.

This thread just upsets me because of the views of so many supposed educated women. :( :(

Carnation, I completely agree. I don't think this is real at all - just someone trying to make Greeks look bad. If it was real, the mother would have said "I had no idea she was at this party, she lied to me and sneaked out." That a parent would admit in print that their 16 year old was at a party with alcohol - and not explicitly state that they had no knowledge of and didn't condone it - is just setting yourself up for a child endangerment charge these days.

I don't know how the law reads in other states, but in Texas I believe we clarify that drunk people cannot give consent. If a person is inebriated and another person has sex with him/her, it can be called rape and the victim will win in court because here drunk consent is not consent.

This thread seemed to be a little unreal to me, so I asked my sister for her take on the question. Wow, I got an irate blast back from her but not exactly what I was expecting. She said that she was sick of all the irresponsible winging of this and countless other stories of a similar nature. Her position was that women needed to grow up and deal with the reality that the world does not operate under PC rules and everyone, regardless of gender, needs to take responsibility for their own actions. She pointed out that this story really pushed the limits of believability but that several factors should be examined if one really wanted to take this seriously. First, it is not exactly a closely held secret that 16 year old girls can and routinely do look, act, and present a totally believable appearance of being very much older. Unless the fraternity demands proof of age someone could easily pass for "legal". Second, while no means no, no one should rely on this as positive protection from base instincts in circumstances that invite trouble. Take responsibility for yourself and avoid situations where trouble could be expected to happen. Also, being "drunk" is likewise not a legal defense for your actions. It is very possible that one could be well oiled and appear to be fully in command. While ignorance of actual age is not a defense as regards stat. rape the "reasonable man" approach can be a major mitigating factor. If the girl can be shown to demonstrate the poise, sophistication, and appearance of a much older woman the court can consider what the proverbial reasonable man would believe in all honesty. She referred to the Errol Flynn rape case heard in the California Superior Ct, County of LA, in 1943. Her basic annoyance is the attitude that no means no is viewed as a magic defense against anything bad happening to anyone no matter how contributory that persons actions. She believes that it is demeaning to women to maintain the attitude that the responsibility lies on the male to operate under artificial rules of PC conduct in a real and potentially dangerous situation while excusing the female any provocation so long as she just says no at any point in the proceedings. Her argument is that a woman must take full responsibility for all her actions or be relegated to the status of "the poor little thing that was taken advantage of by the big bad man". Her position is don't go voluntarily in harm's way, don't borrow trouble, be aware of circumstances, be aware of your ability (or inability) to tolerate alcohol, choose your actions (and companions) wisely and dont winge if your skirts are not clean, but if after taking full responsibility for your own actions something inappropriate still happens then nail the sob's hide to the jail house door.
I am impressed by her stance, and a bit surprised by her anger on the subject. Any thoughts on her reaction?

I heart dekeguy's sister.