Schools that don't recognize GLOs
 

Do you think that these schools are actually making Greek life more exclusive by not recognizing/allowing (or limiting) GLOs from advertising? I think that in this case, recruiting requires word of mouth, and you have to know the right people to join. Otherwise, it would be harder. If a school does allow GLOs to advertise, it would be easier to get the information out, and will get more people.

Princeton problems
 

Here's story about Princeton.

The 4 sororites got 140 pledges, and 11 fraternities got 140 pledges, in spite of the school sending an anti-fraternity letter to parents.

Sometimes, when the road is rough, it makes you stronger.

One of my fraternity's old natl. presidents (and a pastor) always used the line "We don't pray for a smooth sea, we pray for a strong ship."


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Greeks, university clash on campus life

Sunday, October 24, 2004

By AMY SENNETT


For years, American pop culture has depicted college social life as a humorous struggle between debauched students and straight-laced administrators, and while those stereotypes may be exaggerated, there is an ongoing skirmish at Princeton University over how students choose to socialize.

In this year's battle of the Greeks and the deans, score one for the students.

Despite the university's efforts to discourage fraternity and sorority life on Princeton's campus, a record number of students this fall went through rush - the common name for Greek recruiting activities.
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More than 140 freshmen and sophomore women and an almost-equal number of men joined Greek-letter organizations this year in spite of a letter to freshman parents from the administration discouraging it.

The university does not recognize the groups, which it believes negatively affect campus social life and the sense of community in residential colleges.

"Princeton does not officially recognize fraternities and sororities because we do not believe that, in general, they contribute in positive ways to the overall residential experience on campus," wrote Janet Dickerson, vice president for campus life, and Kathleen Deignan, dean of undergraduate students in the letter received by freshman parents.

"They can contribute to a sense of social exclusiveness, and in the cases of some fraternities, they detract from the quality of the residential experience by placing an excessive emphasis on alcohol."-- -- --

Alcohol consumption among fraternity and sorority members has long been a concern at Princeton. Earlier this year, actor Paul Newman urged students to discontinue their tradition of drinking a beer an hour for 24 hours on April 24, dubbed "Newman's Day."

Yet Greek-letter life is not limited to socializing. Greek organizations, particularly sororities, emphasize their involvement in philanthropic events on campus and in the community.

Each sorority has its own national philanthropic cause for which it holds annual fund-raising events. Sorority members also are actively involved in community events, such as the Race for the Cure and the Special Olympics and historically have worked at Trenton's Lifegate Christian Assembly soup kitchen and on the Martin House housing initiative.

Princeton has 11 fraternities and four sororities, all four nationally recognized chapters overseen by the National PanHellenic Council. None of the Greek-letter organizations on campus has a house, though some share space at the Prospect Avenue eating clubs.

Dickerson said the university estimates 800 of Princeton's 4,600 undergraduates are members of fraternities or sororities.

This year, the three sororities participating in formal rush - Kappa Kappa Gamma, Kappa Alpha Theta and Pi Beta Phi - each took a record 36 new members. Typically the groups accept 25 to 30 new members and have just over 100 members per chapter. Fraternities are significantly smaller.

The university is particularly troubled by the timing of the rushing process at the beginning of the school year.

"We are especially concerned when students elect to participate in fall rush their freshman year," continued Dickerson and Deignan in the letter, ". . . thereby restricting themselves to one set of activities and acquaintances before they have had a full opportunity to explore a variety of interests and develop a diverse set of friendships.

"It puts unfair pressure on young people, who deserve time to think about social choices they might make."

Formal sorority rush took place during the last week of September this year. All freshmen and sophomore women were invited to participate in four nights of "no-alcohol" rush parties. Fraternity rush is conducted more informally over the first month of the school year. The groups hold parties in dorm rooms on campus beginning during freshman orientation week in early September.

Dickerson also said Deignan had met with Greek-letter organizations to encourage them to push back their rush activities in the past but had not been inclined to negotiate with them. The groups were not contacted before the letter was sent to freshman parents.

"We have consistently chosen not to grant them recognition because it detracts from the central early purposes of our residential education program," Dickerson said. "And as we understand it, they don't want to be recognized because they don't want to adhere to the university's policies on alcohol and financial management."-- -- --

Sorority and fraternity leaders declined to comment and have asked members not to speak to the press.

In late September, the university canceled a Greek-letter life discussion panel sponsored by OWL, the Organization of Women Leaders, a campus group. Two days before the panel was to occur, the Office of the Dean of Undergraduate Life called off the event on the grounds, according to OWL President Maria Hughes, that it was a "a pro-sorority event."

"The university does not recognize these groups and does not offer them the privileges of other registered student organizations," Deignan said via e-mail.

"OWL does not officially take a stance on sororities and we were hoping that this event would help to demystify Greek life here," said Hughes, a junior and a Kappa Kappa Gamma member.

"This way freshmen and sophomore girls who are trying to decide whether they would like to rush could get a chance to ask their questions about logistics and get more of an `inside scoop' rather than having to rely on rumors that circulate," she said.

"There is a fear that once a freshman joins a Greek-letter organization, their entire four years is planned out for them," said student government President Matthew Margolin. "There are so many groups and possibilities at Princeton, but some people believe that if you join a frat or sorority that it will define you, put you in certain specific social circles.

"I think the big advantage of being in a sorority or frat is that you immediately feel really close to a big group of friends," Margolin said.

Greeks and non-Greeks point to that connection between new and old students as a major benefit.

The Daily Princetonian, the campus newspaper, quoted junior Jen Ragus, a member of Kappa Kappa Gamma, who said, "Princeton doesn't really provide any formal mechanism for bringing freshmen and upperclassmen together.

"Through frats and sororities, older members can give new students advice, make them feel more comfortable and help them to adjust to college."

Other Greek-letter students have echoed such sentiments, saying the organizations promote lasting bonds among people with little in common and, especially, some connection between upperclassmen and underclassmen whose paths might not otherwise cross.

The downside, students say, is that fraternities and sororities tend to strictly define one's social interactions and create an insider-outsider perspective. -- -- -- Residential adviser John Jacobson's experience confirms the university's concerns about Greek-letter life's effect on the freshman experience. While the majority of freshmen attend advising activities, a few drift away from the group.

"You might have seven or eight kids in an RA group, but you always lose one who is going to do frat and sorority things. Athletes or Greek life - they already have a group."

The university's efforts may have left little impact on freshmen, but they have raised parents' eyebrows.

"My roommate's mom hung up on her when she told them she was rushing," said freshman Jackie Latina.

Freshman Alyssa Smilowitz said she was surprised by Princeton sororities and her decision to rush. "It wasn't as intense as other campuses. I met a lot of girls, and I like them a lot."

But she wasn't sure her parents would feel the same. "I told them I was just going to try out the rush process," said Smilowitz.

One student who decided to wait was freshman Emily Aull. "I'd think about doing it sophomore year, but right now there are so many new things," she said.

In a late September editorial, The Daily Princetonian newspaper urged Greeks to change the timing of rush, noting that Greek life dominates social life at the start of the year and "freshmen are unfairly goaded into believing that failing to join a Greek society will leave them on the outskirts of the Princeton social scene."

The editorial concluded that the benefits of Greek life would not be sacrificed by postponing the recruitment process until freshmen get settled into university life.

In recent weeks, several members of Greek organizations have defended themselves against such views.

"Like dance groups and singing organizations, fraternities and sororities do not hurt anyone and greatly enrich the experiences and enjoyment of their members," wrote Matt Musa in a letter to the editor of the Princetonian on Sept. 22.

"If those groups, which take up far more time than fraternities, can recruit as soon as school starts, let the Greeks do the same."

Re: Schools that don't recognize GLOs
 

Successful recruitment doesn't involve advertising.

I do think it has an impact in the early years, when one or a few pioneer groups on that campus are getting up and running and trying to gain a foothold. Not sure if exclusivity is the right word, but it keeps 'em small for awhile!

Re: Re: Schools that don't recognize GLOs
 

Actually on some campuses I think it does. For example on my campus if we don't "advertise" in some form with fliers, signs in the union, around the dorms etc... NO ONE would even know about rush as we can't send things out to incoming freshmen and our greek community is fairly small. We still have people saying " I didn't even know there was sororities here". Maybe at a bigger school where going greek is just "what you do" advertising isn't important but at my school if we didn't get our name out there.. there'd be no one at our parties.

The Greek organizations at my school would give their eyeteeth to be allowed to put up posters, e-mail freshmen about rush, etc. There's no question that more people would come out to rush if they knew about it, and if they didn't view the organizations as "underground" due to their relative invisibility compared to other campus groups.

Re: Re: Re: Schools that don't recognize GLOs
 

It really doesn't. Advertising just brings in prospects who don't know anyone. They are far more likely to depledge, and make for lower quality members. Quality recruitment never involves advertising. It involves prospect acquisition based on making friends.

The real proof is this. If anyone claims that advertising helped out his or her chapter, ask that person what that chapter's retention rate is.That's because "the grass is always greener on the other side." Princeton's greeks should embrace their climate, and learn how to thrive in it.

What do you think makes Greek recruitment so different from essentially every other kind of recruitment there is? (I'm thinking specifically of universities themselves and of college clubs such as choirs and club sports, all of which use advertising to recruit and seem to get a lot of good members that way.) You can still recruit via making friends when you have posters up; it's just an additional way to reach people.

The advertising associated with greek recruitment almost always implies a very short time frame with which the prospects and the GLOs evaluate each other. This short time period is makes it different from many other types of recruitment. Also, the context of recruiting for a GLO is not the same as that of other groups. Fraternal organizations need to take more time becaue we're fraternal. Its not like joining a choir.

The Greeks are unrecognized at Santa Clara. They got "kicked off campus" my freshman year and immediately the Greek system shrank. We lost a fraternity, SAE (it became a local, Cal Phi) and a sorority (Delta Zeta) for various reasons, but then rebounded last year with the addition of Theta. They're thinking of adding another sorority and trying to get another fraternity, so the Greek system is getting stronger. It requires a little ingenuity, but it can be done.

unrecognized...
 

Unrecognized greeks draw a mixed reaction from me. But mostly,
I am against going on to a school who does want us. As an old
college dean myself, I cannot understand the objections, as the
Greeks give far more loyalty than the barbs ("Barbarians") and
are good recruiters themselves, as well as ambassadors.
The failure to recognize is a buck-passing ploy, but perhaps no
worse than the ersatz greek bureaucrats--largely made up on non-Greek college staff...who do not like the greeks anyway.
Why go on a campus who does not want you? Beta tried to go on Notre Dame a few years back and the students were told in
no uncertain terms Beta or Notre Dame...end of discussion.
Some schools attract a type who'd not necessarily be greeks, the
rep like at Reed, Carleton, Oberlin, Cal Tech, Bob Jones, Grinnell,
well, you know, and some of us mockingly call them "three eyed"
schools...but at any rate, we got enough opportunity and enough
challenge just keeping ourselves afloat on our recognized campi.
CU-Boulder has been a disaster in that the administration withdrew recognition basically 'cause they could not handle the
situation, and it has become a real embarrassment. If they had
advisers, housemothers, recognition...perhaps the result would
have been a more positive one. At any rate, a gutless hierarchy
ignored it and now is grandstanding with a deferred rush idea. The idea of unrecognized greeks, deferred rush, and closed campi
has been around a long time and will continue. Let us just try to
keep our chapters healthy, scholarly, and fun, huh?

The University of Toronto doesn't recognize greeks solely based on the fact that they are single sex organizations and they consider this "discrimination". It isn't as though they revoked recognition because of hazing/alcohol, etc. Our chapter there was founded in 1919. We own a house there and have a very strong Alumnae Chapter there. They were our first Canadian chapter, making us Alpha Gamma Delta International Fraternity. They have consistently been one of our best chapters academically and they're my only chapter who sends reports in on time consistently! They are probably our most diverse chapter as well. They are sophisticated, wonderful women. We're not about to close their doors just because the University won't recognize single sex organizations.

Dee

If many can cypher out what E C is saying besides Me, it is to true.

Many Schools want to disassocoiate themselves with Greeks. Does it really Happen with the Alums from Greeks who donate Money to The Chapter or the College? Yes it does at espcecially Large Universitys.

While We as Greeks have become our own worst enemys, the Colleges still have a responsibillty to keep the Students safe guarded in their care so to sepeak.. Hell, they usually dont, they dont give a damn as long as they are not envolved with Risk Management.,

Again, Alfred U. om NY Banned "ALL GREEKS" for what a Local did.

I know LXA was coming back along with others who were living by the rules.

No way, they were all Banned.

While I wrote to them, of course, I never got anything back! Go figure?

Again, who is its own worst enemy?:(

Hey AGDee,

I am in a sorority at Carleton and we are not recognized as well or any other Greek Organization. The non-recognition at Carleton just makes for a stronger Greek Community bond-we work together to bring positive recognition to the Greek Community. However, the non-recognition and the pop culture of Canada makes it hard for us to appeal to students. Fellow students at Carleton, the campus newspaper and our student soceity have nothing but bad word to say about us.

The Greek Organizations have just formed an IFC in order for us to deal with administration better and to hopefully some day get recognized! Hey-we just got club status!!

So its not the end of the world for non-recognition. It can create a stronger Greek Community and make it more unique-you feel more part of a community than of just another club at school.

We recruite word of mouth. A lot of Greeks volunteer for our frosh week as frosh guides. This gives us a chance to be involved with potential rushees and see their personalities as to whether they would be suited to us.

two Carletons....
 

the Carleton I referred to is the one in Minnesota, I believe,
and not the Canadian one. I always thought none of the Greeks
were 'recognized' in Canada, but could be wrong on this, too.
Sorry for the confusion, there are several schools who have
the same or similar names.

Re: two Carletons....
 

Yes, the one you are refering to, if it is the highly selective and very liberal school, is in Northfield, MN. Its a wonderful college, beautiful campus, great faculty.

I knew that you were referring to the Carleton in the States. I already knew about Carleton College. I was responding to AGDEE because it was talking about U OF T which is a Canadian School. I was using my school as an example of how we are successfuly coping and working together without recognition. Wilfred Laurier however has a recognized Greek system in Canada.

Thanks

Doesn't UBC have a recognized system as well?

While we can all discuss it, and E C is pretty much a Historian for GLOs from experience. it all changes not only over time but for the GLOs just plain screwing up!

Yes, there are Private Schools that do not want National GLOs, but, there are others Who Want Us as they feel, that Yes, there is a need and a desire for GLOs.

Is there a Need, Yes there is and Those Who do not do an injustice for the workings of GLOS and The people working so hard to Make it right!

Hey Kappaloo:

Nice talking to you again! :)

yeah, I heard UBC is building Rez's for their Greeks..anyone have any confirmed info on this?...

Another Note:

UBC as quoted as saying that, " The Greek System refers to the organization of fraternities and sororities in North America. Fraternities and sororities are another great way to meet people and get involved. At UBC there are nine fraternities and seven sororities. While providing many social opportunities for students, the Greeks also contribute to the community by taking part in many local events and charity fundraisers. "


This is on their student services pages as a question and answer page for parents.

Go BC for always being more progressive...Grrr Carleton..LOL

You know what I find funny? There are schools that don't recognize GLOs because they exclude one gender, but yet allow a local Link (Girl Guides of Canada) unit to meet on campus. Some schools even allow Guides to set up a booth on their clubs info nights.

Re: Re: Schools that don't recognize GLOs
 

I have to agree ... no matter how many posters you put up word of mouth is something entirely different and can help people form opinions before they even have been exposed to the group or its advertising

Okay, I don't know exactly what kind of "unit" you're referring to - but Girl Guides and Girl Scouts are connected through WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts) and I would assume their policies to be similar.

As President of the Campus Girl Scouts at my school, and after 15 years of membership in Girl Scouts, I guess I consider myself somewhat of an authority on GS policies.

Once a girl turns eighteen or graduates from high school, she is no longer eligible for Girl Scouts - as a girl member. After eighteen, one wishing to be involved with Girl Scouts is considered an ADULT Girl Scout. That means that you volunteer in various ways. You can lead a troop, organize programs, or just lend a hand when needed. Most Campus Girl Scouts are not troop leaders or advisors because no one has time with a full academic workload. Instead, we put on programs for Girl Scouts, for the campus, and for the community.

Here's where it sounds like you're confused - adult Girl Scouts CAN BE MALE. In fact, my very own fiance is a Girl Scout. And if I didn't go to a women's college, we would certainly recruit males to be in Campus Girl Scouts.

Perhaps Girl Guides in Canada don't have similar policies (because there are differences between Girl Guides and Girl Scouts, but I don't know them very well), but I suspect that men are reluctant to join Girl Guides when it carries such a stigma (at least, that's how guys are here). Maybe you are believing a campus group of Girl Guides to be exclusively female when it in fact only suffers from lack of male interest.

:)

Girl Guides of Canada is a part of WAGGGS, and will be the host country for the Western Hemisphere Conference in 2007. Link is for women who are between 18-30 who would prefer to work as a group over being a leader in a unit (troop). In Canada, adult members, just like non-adult members, are all female.

Girl Guides of Canada website: http://girlguides.ca/

Heh, not that sexism is the real reason GLOs are not recognized on campus .....

The University of Waterloo does not recognize Link due to its single-gender policy.

Doe Waterloo have single-gendered student residences?

is it because of the one gender or because of the one gender and private membership policies? I mean, we don't openly discuss the basis on which we choose members, girl guides is open to all women. That selection process is private. Girl guides does not do the private selection does it?

I have a feeling that is the reason why Queen's University in Kingston recognizes Link (heck, we even had a club photo in the yearbook!), but won't allow GLOs on campus. There is a co-ed philanthropy group affiliated with med students that used to be a medical school GLO back in the day.

Nope - all residences are co-ed.

The new Panhellenic House is now built and it is BEAUTIFUL!
http://www.vapa.bc.ca/forever_friend...ome/index.html

The Fraternity Houses have all been demolished and new buildings have been built as well.

Are any segregated by floor? It must be tough for those who are religious or don't feel comfortable living on the same floor with members of the opposite sex if this isn't the case. When the last remaining all male rez at Queen's went co-ed, there were a few groups that demanded that some floors remain all male for religious reasons. The rez people listened and a couple of floors in Leonard Hall are still guys' only.

Oh, they're segregated by floor (or portion of floor in some cases) in traditional residences and there is options to have a single sex suite in suite-style, but strictly speaking, all residence units (house or floor) will have both men and women.

if you want to know more, PM me cuz this is quite the hijack.

I'll hijack a little here too... I'm a Cub Scout (because I'm a leader, you have to register) and a Girl Scout (because if I'm going to go on any of the 'field trips' with my daughter, I have to be registered). This is how they get most of the Dads registered too. To be covered by Girl Scout insurance, if they are going to attend a trip or drive the girls somewhere, they have to be a registered member!

Dee

Congrats UBC!! I am soo jealous..up here in Ottawa we have to find a house on our own. The frat houses are quite messy and gross...ewww

Is the Rez for all Greeks? Do you have seperate floors for each Org?

Yeah, the guys frat houses (the old ones) were pretty messy and gross too, prior to getting demolished.

I know in the upper floors of Panhellenic, there is housing for something like 5 girls from each chapter, and housing for non-Greeks too. There is no "all Greek" housing though (except for the fraternity houses)

UBC residences (Totem and Vanier) are pretty much run like this (girl floor, guy floor, girl floor, guy floor). I don't know of mixed sex floors. For me, it has nothing to do with religion, but rather the fact that living with young men, aged 18-22....well, boys can be messy, noisy and gross at that age! ;)

This is a very interesting question you asked.

I know Guelph has a single-sex residence. MacDonald Hall is an all female residence. There used to be an all male residence-Mills Hall-until it was changed to co-ed because of the lack of space for females (females make up 60-70% of our student body).
Guelph does not recognize GLO's, and their reasoning is that we discrinimate based on gender. But it's interesting that they do recognize Varsity sports teams, which are single sex and are somewhat exclusive. Everyone is welcome to try out for a varsity team, however not everyone will be choses for the team. Kind of like GLO's. Everyone is welcome to go through recruitment, yet not everyone will get a bid.
This is of course more of a rant than it is a question, but what makes varsity sports team different from GLO's??

I think the real reason why GLOs are not recognized by some schools is because of ritual. The adminstration can't control what goes on because they don't know what happens, unless they happen to be an alum of that group. Also, from what I understand, U of T kicked all GLOs off campus because GLOs used to discriminate based on race. I think there was a post here a while ago about that, but I'm not sure where it is now. This occured in the early 60s, I think.

Delta Upsilon is a non-secret fraternity, so they don't have a secret ritual. And Phrateres is an all-girl club at UBC with an initiation ritual (I know, I was in it), and the administration at UBC has no problem recognizing them.
http://www.ams.ubc.ca/clubs/phrateres/
There is also Ceres at U of Alberta which is an all girl club at U of A.

I think it's perceived that Greeks discriminate against people based on race or sexual orientation, and that all we do is party, promote underage drinking (more of a USA problem with its age 21 business than here, but I digress), behave immaturely and fail out of school (Hey...movies like "Animal House", while funny, are not great for Greeks in terms of promoting a positive image). I also suspect that with Canadian University Administrators, that there is some anti-American sentiment too, since Greeks started out as being uniquely American.

That is occasionaly cited at some religiously affiliated schools, but other than that its never the case.