Gray Areas of 'Hazing'
 

Link to the Article

Discuss among yourself.

The writer makes a good point. Every team has initiation rights...even rowers! We call a person's first flip out of a single their "baptism", you have a pissing contest, where you literally row till you can't row any more, some teams make their freshmen wear costumes during races...it's pretty funny, and it's very similar to what Greeks do.

It just goes to show, that there is Hazing as it were in any group or type of group.

But, Greeks seem to take the most heat for a hazing incident on a Campus.

The really sad part is that having been under the gun so much, We as Greeks Strive or try to Strive Harder to not do Hazing or point out and try to educate our members more than anyone else.

Still, We are the ones who take it in the shorts.:( But, too, when will We as Greeks ever learn?:rolleyes:

I definitely believe there is a difference between a trial and hazing. While I don't believe in destroying people, emotionally or physically, I believe that we are letting New Members/pledges down by not testing them in preparation for the way Greeks are tested on a daily basis.

I agree wholeheartedly! It seems very odd to me that we are collegiate GLOs (my comment works only for collegiates - I'm not commenting on non-collegiates because I don't have any experience) but we don't use classroom-type situations to teach our New Members/pledges. When you're in class, you have tests which you either pass or fail. In some classes, you might be able to retake the test, but often with stipulations, or you might simply flunk altogether. You have to sit through long lectures and you are expected to KNOW the information. If you do not know it, you are not a good student. (And, if you do not know your GLO's info, you are not a good member.)

In P.E. type courses, you are expected to work out your body. There will always be exceptions where there are people who are unable to complete and exercise and are excused. That's fine.

Nowhere in school classes - except in ridiculous circumstances with evil professors - are you degraded, beaten, made to do anything harmful (drink too much, eat bad foods, etc.), made to exercise until you are sick - nothing! So, why, as collegiate orgs, would we ever condone such activities?

" Anything activity that puts a person in clear danger is unacceptable. And any activities which have no beneficial outcomes and serve merely to humiliate or scare another are unacceptable, because those are just the things which put people in the hospital and give sports teams and the Greek system bad reputations. On the contrary, those things which may be hard but have a a purpose and conclude with success have their rightful place among us. "

i think this would be a much better definition of what hazing is/isnt than what i was taught in new member education. which was something to the degree of "hazing is anything that causes you mental, physical or emotional harm." and somehow includes things like scavenger hunts (not the scary ones, but just around the house or something) and other activities that are usually fun for everyone included.

ive noticed, unlike the writer's campus, that its only the greeks that get admonished/punished for hazing-like activities, while honor societies, service groups and spirit groups have been hazing for decades and no one gets booted for five years.

This is very true, and I'm glad you posted this. Sports are pretty big at my school and freshman year one of my guy friends went out for the hockey team. He had an initiation that lasted all night long, when we asked him what happened he said he doesn't remember because he passed out. :eek: I've heard of stories from friends in other schools where sports teams and other clubs haze yet are left alone. Can you imagine what the newspapers would say if the same standard was applied to all collegians, and not just Greeks? After finding a freshman boy with alcohol poisoning, the school has broken up the Glee Club, got rid of the men's basketball team, and forbidden anyone from living on the 6th floor of the dorm...

FOR REAL!

I definitely would NEVER want to haze any of my new members/future sisters (this wasnt so true the first semester I was a full sister and we had new pledges! I really wanted to have some fun with them, but its been 3 years since then I have since realized that its not cool, healthy, beneficial to the chapter in anyway) but I HATE how strict everything is. We're not allowed to hold new member sleepovers (which was an awesome part of my new member experience), quiz them (which in my belief is not in anyway hazing as long as they arent being punished for a bad score....its not considered hazing when a teacher gives you a pop quiz, its a learning tool!) or really do anything besides read information about the sorority off. New members arent even required to attend events which are mandatory for the sisters, which i find ridiculous.

BUT I was New Member Educator of my chapter for many many semesters and we stuck to the rules...and I've had EVERY single one of my new members ask why it was so easy to get in and that they wished it had been challenging in some way. These are all dedicated sisters and I feel badly I couldnt give them the NM period they desired.

I guess I'll end my rant saying that I thoroughly respect my Headquarters decisions regarding our no hazing policy, I just wish things were a little different for Greeks in general :(

Are you kidding me? NM sleepovers are the BEST!!! We had one as a sorority a couple of weeks ago and it was great.

i think back to some of the things i had to do during pledging that are now considered hazing, like manditory study hours and doing sister interviews can be beneficial.

we didn't have to memorize the sisters info and repeat it back or anything, just talk to a certain number and get them to sign a book. i think it helps you get to know sisters who you wouldn't necessarilly talk to, like the seniors if you were a freshman.

looking back i wish my pledging experience had been a little "tougher". though, the women who came after pledged after my class had an "easier" time because of all the policy changes.

My school still does mandatory study hours. They're required for NM's of all the GLO's and also for all freshmen on any sports teams, I think they're a really good thing.

All chapters of AGD are encouraged to have mandatory study house for EVERYBODY. Most chapters have developed a system where, the higher your GPA, the fewer proctored study hours are required. They count computer lab time, tutored hours, set times that are available for the chapter in the library, and study groups. There is nothing wrong with this and should be encouraged for EVERYBODY. That's the key, for everybody. You're all in college/university for the same reason, school.

KLPDaisy: You said the sorority did a sleepover. That's fine too, the whole chapter, all the women, not just the new members. A new member sleepover indicates that it's just the new members and, historically, has involved activities that aren't in accordance with NPC GLOs standards.

Greeks are under a microscope, fair or not, this is the reality and we must behave impeccably to avoid bad publicity and risky situations or else we will cease to exist. If bad things hadn't happened due to scavenger hunts, sister interviews, etc., they would still be allowed. But bad things did happen, repeatedly, at campuses all over the country, so they are no longer allowed. It's like everybody losing lunch recess because 5 kids beat someone up. It's not fair, but it's reality.

Dee

I don't know how I feel about mandatory study hours. We (all GLOs) had them during lot week for Thurtene Carnival and I found it a pain. I barely got anything done and it was so inconvenient. I have a 3.5+ and like to study on my own, in my room. I think study hours might be a good idea if you have under a 3.0, but I don't think they should be mandatory for the whole chapter.

How do they work anyway? Are there specific times you can go? etc. My chapter DOES have "study hours" where if someone from exec volunteers to be at the library/etc for a certain time span on a certain day, you can earn points for going during those times.

In my school it's up to the individual org to decide how they wanna do study hours. Some do it every weekday from a certain point that you have to be in the library. We do ours that the girls can go whenever as long as they do their hours and get them in to the NME. Study hours are also mandatory for anyone who's on academic probation. They have to email their hours to the secretary and the sorority's advisor to make sure that they get them done.

I was better at self studying too, but, as a result of a good GPA, I only had to attend like two hours a week, where someone with a 2.2 might have to put in 10 hours. I would plan to do things that didn't take too much concentration or that required library resources anyway (this was before the internet, when we had to go to the library for EVERYTHING!). Each chapter works it a little differently, but yes, the scholarship committee sets up proctors (everybody has to take a turn at that too) who have people sign in and out during a certain time period. Like I said earlier though, they would also include time spent with a tutor, in a computer lab, or in a study group (some majors do a lot of group work). The details are up to the chapter to come up with what works for them. Sometimes any time spent studying in the presence of a sister would count, so sisters with like majors or in the same class could study together. For chapters with houses, the study hours could also be held in the house, say, in the dining room, during certain hours. Some chapters set up study buddies with upperclassman paired with underclassman, etc. Each chapter I oversee does them a little bit differently, but they all have them in some form.

Dee

This is a great standard to look to... anything that puts someone in danger - wrong; anything that is designed to humilitae - wrong...

That to me is the basic difference between hazing and indoctrination. Which is the great essential difference between the crap that some chapters pull, and what happens (for the most part) during basic training in the military.

Yes, Scavenger hunts are something I have always been upset about not being able to do!! I wish I would have been able to put together a (nice) scavenger hunt all around campus for the NMs. I remember whenever I would visit my Aunt Anna when I was little, she would put together these "treasure hunts" for me and my sister all around her house and backyard and they were soo much fun...my aunt wasnt hazing us!! haha. I think it would have been SUCH a fun time to be able to do this with my pledge sisters and a great way to learn history and bond.

Of course, I know some chapters ruined it for the rest of us which sucks. I guess this just goes back to my earlier statement of "i wish things were different for Greeks in general!"

I think you hit the naill on the head.:confused:

The few who did and got carried away made it that much harder on everybody, therefore, Risk Management Insurance and the idea of being squeeky clean for that reason.

All of us as National and Locals should be aware of this.

The problem is, what We Sowed, is what We are Reaping Now!:(

Grey area?
 

I think it is totally laughible to compare military training to keg stands.

I have been through Army Infantry training. Yes, I volunteered for it, but once you get there, there is no where else to go. The government makes you sign a contract, and you take an oath of office containing the phrase "I swear to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foriegn and domestic, and to obey the orders of those appointed over me". Once you sign the contract, you are considered government property. You can be brought up on charges of 'Damaging government property' if you break your leg.

Most importantly, the military is training you to KILL and to SURVIVE in times of war!


My fraternity has a strict no hazing policy and my chapter strictly adheres to it. We don't haze at all and lets see, has it hurt my chapter? Has it caused my brothers not to bond?

Regional Outstanding Chapter 2004 - Sig Tau
4 Consecutive Greek Sing wins - YSU
Undefeated Intramurals - YSU - 3 years running
Cum GPA of 3.24 (out of 36 brothers)
- Best on campus (6 fraternities / 4 sororities), Best in nation for Sig Tau
Numerous philanthropy, scholorship, and recruitment awards

Oh yeah, and we were re-chartered in 2001. These awards are since the re-chartering.

If you feel that humiliating another human being brings you closer to them, then go for it.

We like to think that winning everything builds bonds too. You can only win when everyone is doing their part to reach the goal.

There are some idocies with hazing as well. A scavenger hunt considered hazing? Come on.

I am angry that my nationals now considers it hazing for us to require new members to learn our creed. The foundation for everything we do, and Nationals says that we can only encourage them to learn it!

Basically, my opinion on the whole thing is that an activity becomes hazing when the person in question wouldn't normally do it, or have it done to them. Laws are interpreted based on the state of mind of the victim during the event.

Be careful out there.

Well, I can say that I personally witnessed a Drill Sgt standing on the chest of another recruit, yelling at him. BUT, the kid was about to make a mistake on a live-fire range and was putting the whole platoon in danger.

I was thrown up a flight of stairs by a DS, but I was being a douchebag.

The worst that I saw while I was there happened to another platoon. One of them was caught wearing his sweats under his uniform. It was around 10 degrees out with wind chill, but he broke a regulation. The DS's put guards at the door of their platoon bay and they were smoked till all of them fell out. They had to put on all their clothes (including a charcoal-lined chem suit) and were PT'd (Physically Trained) for about 2 hours. We could look through the windows from our bay into theirs. They were crawling through piles of vomit, and that's all I saw because the windows got covered with condensation. One kid lost 12 pounds in those 2 hours. None of them broke regs again though.

Military training isnt the touchy-feely crap you see on Dateline NBC. Those visits are scheduled weeks in advance, and all the dicipline is kept away from the cameras.

But we kept telling ourselves "I'm getting $1,187/month for this".

Well, that, and "I am kicking my recruiter's A$# when I get back!"

"I have been through Army Infantry training."

A lot of us have. The vast majority lived through it.

But, what if that boot had died while the DI was standing on his chest?

Or, if someone in that other platoon had died of heat stroke?

Whle being the first to admit that there's a major difference between the military and a fraternity, here's also a difference between "training" and brutality.

To a lesser extent than the military, the failure to understand that difference, and the death or physical injuries to pledges during previous years is what brought on all of these strict rules on hazing.

It isn't PC. It's stupidity on our part -- and then fostering the reputation by bragging about what we went through, what we did to the next classes and fables of what great drinkers and partyers we are/were which grow by the year. Who built and protected that reputation?

The days of drill sergeants/drill instructors/military training instructors (Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force, respectively) physically touching recruits in training are officially long gone. It might happen once in a blue moon, but for most DIs, they value their Smokey Bear hat/bush hat and the extra pay to not piss it away doing something stupid if they get caught.

Sure, we had it tougher last year (WHITLY!). It's been over 20 years since I endured Pinnacle Week, but I wouldn't wish it upon anyone else today the lack of sleep, the bullshit rules, among other things that I endured to become an Alpha Sig.

And it's been nearly 20 years since I endured basic training at Lackland AFB. I never was touched by any of the TIs, but they sure can put the fear of God into a young recruit. Hell, I didn't relax until the flight out of San Antonio International took off.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
[B]The days of drill sergeants/drill instructors/military training instructors (Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force, respectively) physically touching recruits in training are officially long gone. [QUOTE]


Um, I graduated basic in Feb 2000. That's not so long-gone, but there is a difference between the infantry and the rest of the Army.

To clairfy, I think its important to consider a chapter's, a Panhel's/IFC's, and a headquarters gray areas. For a time, it was very very very clear that there was no gray area in my chapter because we had messed up so severely that our headquarters said no to every event that could be a gray area. My chapter had messed up our HQ's trust that these benign gatherings wouldn't wind up clearly being hazing.

And then its very hard to trust and respect your immediate older sisters and alumni.

But then I've sat in Panhel meetings where your Greek advisor mentions a hazing incident and you realize that you know it was the business fraternity on your campus. And there's not much you can do about that.

I've always felt that hazing can be a good thing and should be treated as a productive tool and not shunned automatically because a bunch of assholes decide to combine alcohol and bungee cords to its meaning...

Hazing is Good Thread

However, all states have anti-hazing statutes and will continue to ignore the problem and only punish when it occurs. Never quite understood how a scavenger hunt could be so mentally dangerous to a pledge, but whatever...


RUgreek

Scavenger Hunt trends:
Items to find/things to do became more and more "outrageous" or sexually explicit or dangerous or illegal

Punishments for not completing the hunt became more and more dangerous/extreme (drinking a shot for each item not found, having to do something humiliating if you didn't finish, being screamed at for being useless dirtbags if you didn't finish, etc.)

Scavenger hunts are not just a hazing issue, they are a risk managment issue. If you are racing around town trying to win a hunt, you are at high risk for injury (ex. running in front of a car because you're trying to dash to get back to the house first, driving dangerously because you're in a hurry, etc). For this reason, even alumnae chapters/clubs are forbidden from doing things like Road Rallies, which can be really fun, but carry a high risk of liability problems.

Dee

I feel like a broken record on here sometimes

I think what the real issue here is that society is so PC now, it's not even funny.

"OOh, we might hurt this guy's feelings if we do this"

I completely understand the philosophy behind hazing. It happens wherever you go. The new guy at work, the new roommate, new kid in your circle of friends. We all have either hazed someone or have been hazed at some point. The reason why the Greek Community gets so much of the attention is that, reaching it's height during the Vietnam War, it was seen as part of the establishment. Fraternities were widely viewed as recruiting for the business community and the government that was fighting an unjust war.

Who's running things now? The 'hippie protestors' of that period.

Hazing is a fact of life. Each one of us does it every day. We decide if someone is 'good enough' do deserve our company. Hell, I bet you could scream hazing because people around you were talking about something you knew nothing about.

"They were trying to change my views"

Basically, I believe in hazing with due regard for safety. However, given the current political climate, I don't conciously engage in hazing.

My advice: "Stop whining and grow a set. The world is not nice and sweet. Not everyone deserves a trophy, not everyone deserves praise. Get over it, because I already have."

So, let's see if I've got this right.

George Bush was a hippie. Bob Taft (your governor) was a hippie. The president of Ohio State was a hippie.

Hey, I was a director level manager with TCI, and I wasn't a hippie.

The hippie thing is way overbuilt in a lot of people's minds. Don't misunderstand, the "opposition" folks of the sixties did a lot of important things -- and some of them did become leaders -- but the fact is that they were a very small part of even the college society back then.

On the hippie thing, remember that a lot of people get much more conservative/mainstream once they begin to have families and larger responsibilities. I've seen, ok so this is my generation, a lot of hippies go very conservative as soon as they leave college. It is just an angry right position to say hippies control this country. If they did, we'd have a constitutional amendment that granted women equal rights, pot would be legalized, women's choice would not be threatend, we would not be in Iraq, religious groups would not be recieving federal money and Georgie would certainly not be our President...for the second term. This country is MUCH more conservative than most of the right will admit. You can see it in our federal spending, our foreign policy and in our domestic politics. I'm not whinning, just pointing it out.

George Bush isn't running a college, dude. :) Neither is Bob Taft. I have no idea what the prez of Ohio State did in his youth. We're not talking about who runs the country, we're talking about who runs colleges and universities which is not the same thing.

As far as Dee's comments about the scavenger hunts, they're not dangerous if they're done correctly. People are just too lazy to make rules that say scavenger hunts/interviews/whatever if conducted will be done in such and such a manner - it's easier to just ban everything. Of course, that fosters the "in for a buck, in for a quarter" mentality - if we're going to get busted for hazing for a scavenger hunt, we might as well go overboard with it.

It's like allowing 18 year olds to drink 3.2 beer - I'm sure there would be those who would still break the law and drink liquor but I think the majority would appreciate being given that leeway and not abuse it.

But what was being talked about, according to the post above by Spitz is "Who's running things."

That would include anti-hazing laws as well, I think, and politicians are making those -- as well as university administrations.

A few may have been hippies, but not the majority, I think.

Sorry for two posts in a row, but generally my experiences would have me tend to agree with this.

Really, what difference does it make on what level things are being run and by whom?

Colleges are microcosism of a country are they not?

I am sure those of us must have been somewhat free spirited when we were in collge just as those today are trying to be.

So, some dont think scavenger hunts are bad, then why are they on a list of no no's for a hazing item? So if people had not screwed them up then it might have been alright. But they did didnt they!!! That unto itself lies the problem.

Remember two things:

1. Our National Organizations set the polocies.

2. We are the members of our National Orgaizations who vote on amendments that are to be followed by ALL of said Greek Organizatins members.

The problem is that the people making the rules are the liability insurance carriers and they get to call the shots on this one.

True--back in the "purple haze" days of the '70's, we did all sorts of stuff that would now get our butts kicked off campus for 5 years.

The norm at that time: Parties where 10 kegs were lined up (and drained) by 300+ Greeks in a basement that probably would've been sanctioned to hold 100 people. Been there, did that, actually remember some of it...

The norm today: BYOB parties where sign-in sheets are turned in to Greek Affairs and attached to the event request form (w/copies going to the particular GLO's IHQ).

Is one better than the other? Not necessarily...however, it would be interesting to see research on how many alcohol-related deaths happened back in the "good old days" vs. today. I don't recall hearing about any during my UG days--could this be because of "binge-drinking"?

-BF

Yes.

You aren't allowed to drink in public so you drink a whole bottle in private.

This is why I said they should educate the students on conducting "proper" hunts, and set up some reasonable boundaries. Once you keep alcohol out of it, there is hardly much of a risk management issue. If going around and collecting things is too risky for a pledge activity, what the hell are greeks doing for bonding activities today? Sitting around a camp fire and telling spooky stories? Oh wait, a camp fire, probably too risky to have one of those :rolleyes:
Some rules are just demented in my opinion.


RUgreek

No matter how many fabulous national education programs are set in place, it only takes one stupid idiot to ruin it for the whole bunch. It happens all the time. Good national programs and something at the local level gets twisted.

So, the scavenger hunt privilege is abused one too many times, and is taken away. There are other "getting to know you" activities students may engage in.

Clarification: Risk Management isn't just about alcohol. And most traditional-age college students go with the mob mentality and are robbed of normally solid decision-making skills in their desire to fit in.

Nice. :rolleyes:

This should be engraved in 10" letters in ever chapter house, suite, or whatever!

I also liked lyrica9's quote, from wherever it came.

I've been used as an example as someone who was hazed, yet the very nastiest thing I can remember being forced to do was polishing the silver. We did horrible things like answering phones, going on scavenger hunts, and getting pledge books signed (read: "I really want to meet ___ the Delt, will you assign me to interview him?"). Most of what our pledge tasks were about was getting to know the sisters and how to become a good sister yourself.

BUT! Of course, there are the ones who think pledges should take the place of housekeepers, or worse, and those idiots are the ones who ruin it for everyone.

Each GLO HQ takes a long time to go over exactly what they consider hazing and what they don't. When you accept a bid from that GLO, you accept their policy - no options. So, as responsible Greeks, we must take a stand against hazing in ANY form, and try not to falsely glamorize to a New Member something that you wouldn't do yourself.