Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

This article made me think..."What does Mrs. Bush REALLY think of her husband?"

Or is she so far removed from a real life that she just doesn't care/doesn't think about it?

Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Maybe she admires her husband because she's NOT removed from a real life and because she does care/thinks about it.

Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Why do you hate Bush? This is very personal with you.

Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Yeah, it really is.

To be fair, though, there are those on the other side of the process who hate the other candidate and take things very personally.

I wish everyone would back off and take a deep, cleansing breath...

Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

I don't think anyone "on the other side" takes it personally like this guy. In fact I found the partisan remarks getting more and more vicious once this kid started posting just so people could keep up.

-Rudey

Selective perception...

Rudey got pwned.

But it still goes both ways.

Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Someone needs to explain to this woman that President Bush did not kill her son, a terrorist murderer killed him, and his death is mourned and honored by his fellow soldiers. There are no draftees in today's Army. Every soldier, whether that soldier is a Regular, Reservist, or National Guard member is a VOLUNTEER. He was there doing what he voluntarily committed to do. He was not some kid drafted out of school and sent in harm's way. He was a man who made a man's decision to serve his country as a soldier. His mother brings shame and dishonor on her son's sacrifice. He gave the full measure of devotion to his country and his fellow soldiers. She has made a mockery of his ultimate courageous gesture. As a reserve officer and a veteran of the first round of deployments I am sickened that a mother could act in such a manner. Soldiers, and most certainly volunteer soldiers, do not get to pick and choose which fights they feel like getting involved in. It does not matter whether a soldier personally approves of this war or whether he takes a totally opposite direction in his opinion. When the Army is called on to act soldiers do what they have committed to do. To protect and defend the the United States and to obey the orders of the officers and/or non commissioned officers placed over them. Something else to consider is that when the shooting starts soldiers pull together and draw strength from the brotherhood. We on Greek Chat should clearly understand the concept of mutually supportive brotherhood. A soldier has chosen a hard and demanding profession but he has chosen an honorable one. When that soldier chooses to put it on the line for his country we his fellow citizens owe him the respect to honor his choice and doubly honor his sacrifice. That his mother could do this saddens me to consider how much she has missed the point of her sons decision and committment as an American soldier.
While the old phrase has gone out of fashion in the broader community the Army still believes that while it is better to let the other poor SOB die for his country, if the worst comes to the worst then "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori".

Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

This needs to be repeated. Since he had to go through ROTC to become a 1st Lt., it's not like he made the decision to join the Army on a whim. But there is the very loose argument that the GI Bill and assisting with college finance is the "new draft".

Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Even you admit it's loose.

That means that rational people think it doesn't exist.

My heart aches for this woman; I can't imagine how awful it would be mourning the death of ones son. So I'm inclined to grant her some slack in this.

I agree with dekeguy in his synopsis of the situation, however, in the death of a loved one, there is often no rational thinking. Clearly, this soldier's mother is out of her mind with grief, and needs to blame someone, anyone, for the death of her son. Her reaction is completely normal, if not rational.

My heart goes out to her.

I agree completely. She must be devastated to lose her son. I feel nothing but compassion and sympathy for her.

Personally, I don't think arresting her helps her or anyone. I think that she might benefit from some grief counseling. Hopefully, a judge will agree.

Grief is one thing, but a pattern of acting in a grossly inappropriate manner regarding the tragic but honorable death of her son is quite another. We who have worn our country's uniform perhaps view this in a somewhat different light. We know and accept the downside risk of service in a fighting force. As my old Sergeant Major used to tell us, "Somedays you get to earn your rations the hard way." I have seen men die and I am sick with grief that anyone would have this happen to them, and that includes the "other fellows" who oppose us. Death is a grim reality that we must all face someday. To some are given the opportunity to face it doing something brave and honorable, as that young officer did. He kept faith to his oath and with his fellow soldiers to the last full measure of devotion. He died while acting to protect his fellow soldiers and the innocent bystanders who would be caught in the blast radius of a bomb set by cowards who would kill without regard to the innocence of their potential victims. To diminish his sacrifice through self serving histrionics is appalling ...
By way of contrast, when I was leaving for my reserve call up my Mother said the words to me that my Grandmother said to my Dad and Uncles when they went to fight in Viet Nam. She said that I should do the best I could to lead my men well and to take no unnecessary chances for them or myself and to come home safe and sound, BUT, to always remember that if the unthinkable happened that the very last thing I would do on earth would be to die, so, DO IT WELL!
If anything had happened to me I have no doubt that she would have been stricken with the grief that only a mother could know, but I am equally certain that if the unthinkable had happened she would have honored my death and looked to my brother and/or cousins to take my place. Yes, we have discussed this and yes she and my graqndmother define for me the concept of "steel magnolias", but it sure as hell makes me proud of them.

Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

The alcoholic cokehead is trying to push a constituional apartheid of which I would be of the second-class status. Why should I not hate him?

Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Recently, this "loose argument" has become quite popular among some extremists in my area. It's really shaky footing, although it may carry more truth than at first glance it would appear.

The reality, though, is that regardless of social and economic issues, there is no requirement to join the Army, there is no requirement to utilize it for college, and there is no excuse for those in military service who joined for the 'free college' never expecting to actually go to war.

To me, the flipside of the argument is that those who take advantage of the GI Bill and etc, but expected to never see wartime service, were doing just that: taking advantage of a government program. There's a fine line between the "new draft" and "stealing from the government," and I personally feel there is a little truth to each side.

(Total hijack, but I thought it necessary to respond to a smart post by ISUPhiPsi so he sees what it should be like.)

Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

The man has touched neither in more than 20 years. How that is relevant to anything today is completely beyond me. Of course... Bill Clinton never inhaled so we can see how bad President Bush is.

Though I disagree with his position on gay marriage, I understand that the foundation of his reasoning is in the religious teachings that he believes in. At least we have a President now that believes in something and has a firm foundation as opposed to one that acknowledges the church's position but decides it won't win him enough votes. Though I disagree with Bush on that issue, I find the way that Kerry doesn't really seem to actually believe in anything to be morally repugnant compared to the Presiden who actually holds an unpopular opinion due to his personal beliefs.

I think strong leadership is a more important quality than certain individual issues. I plan on practicing family law as soon as I get a JD. Gay marriage (or actually, divorce) is definitely something that will have an impact on my bottom line :D

Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

He did cocaine at Camp Davide during his father's presidency- that was less than 20 years ago.

What the heck are you talking about? I think you've seen way too many episodes of Will & Grace and need to just stop copping this annoying attitude.

-Rudey
--PLEASE STOP USING YOUR GEEKY WARCRAFT COMPUTER GAME DEFINITIONS YOU LOSER!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Says Kitty? Moore? Two very credible sources.

[IMG]http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=LSD/v=2/SID=w/l=IVI/*-http://www.spicken.de/lvd-beratung/grafik/lsd.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Says Kitty, that oh-so-believable author.

He's also put any drug and alcohol problems behind him, something I give him credit for.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

Allegedly. I'm not aware anyone has proved that.

ETA:

"He's also put any drug and alcohol problems behind him, something I give him credit for."

Any drug abuser or alcoholic will tell you that the problem is never behind you. It would seem, though, that he has done pretty well so far.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

There is a difference between someone who "parties" and someone who is an addict.

-Rudey

What does President Bush's alleged drug and alcohol use/experiences/problems/addiction have to do with this thread? :confused:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

An addict.

That's generally what someone with a "problem" is, as it has been described and was said as a response to an earlier post.

It doesn't.

However since IowaStatePhiPsi wants to attack another man's character:

IowaStatePhiPsi drinks alcohol and gets drunk - by all measured fitting the category of problem binge drinking. Perhaps we could call him an alcoholic?

IowaStatePhiPsi talked in a thread on chit chat about how he was going to hit on boy scouts, made a remark about wishing he was a twink (a sexual term for a young boy), and talked in the Entertainment forum of salivating over several young characters on television shows. These are all facts and he tried to justify it all with the age of consent in his state being lower. Perhaps we can come up with some sort of label for this fellow.

-Rudey

I'm sorry but no matter how patriotic you are or how much this country and its military honors the death of one of its soldiers who dies in battle, to a mother who has lost her son the death is just as painful as if he was killed here in a car accident or in a violent crime. There is little comfort in the "honor" of his death. Moreover, I find nothing dishonorable in the way in which this woman has acted. She is exercising the exact freedom her son fought to protect!!!
While you may not agree with the way this particular mother chose to exercise her first amendment rights, her actions are not "grossly innappropriate." The most fundamental cornerstone of the first amendment is that we should be able to question our political leaders. Mrs. Bush is campaigning for her husband and therefore is open to protests and questioning because she is choosing to make speeches and campaign for votes in a political campaign.
Furthermore, everyone seems to be avoiding the point of the mother's protest. Why aren't the children of members of congress serving in this war? Why aren't Mr. and Mrs. Bush sending their daughters to serve in the military? The political leaders of this country spend a tremendous amount of time telling us how important the war is and how we must sacrifice both financially and emotionally to send our sons and daughters oversees to win this war, yet only one member of Congress has made the ultimate sacrifice and sent a child to Iraq. If this war is so important to our safety and our survival as a nation, why aren't George and Laura sending Jenna and Barbara over there to fight??

dekeguy serves in the military. I think he fully understands honor and serving for one's country.

George Bush did not kill this woman's son. An Arab did (or whomever).

George Bush is not the end all, be all of government. People voted to go to Iraq. John Kerry is one such person who voted to fight in Iraq. However, John Kerry chose not to fund out soldiers after the war started and that funding could have possibly saved lives.

Again, why don't you question why Kerry's daughters aren't there? Are you somehow jaded that you have to keep bringing up Bush?

And again, this is a war. In a war people die. In a military people volunteer to join. Would you make this argument about any war?? Or did you just randomly pick Iraq?

The son served honorably and gave a great sacrifice not only to our country, America, but also to a country that was haunted by mass murders and torture at the hands of Saddam Hussein. The mother is understandably upset, but she has to accept this at some point.

-Rudey

STOP! hammer time!

No, seriously, STOP! Ease off it sister, because you're completely out of line here. While SIATS (shit in a tee-shirt, for those of you who didn't know) Mikey Moore wants you to believe that congressional children are somehow exempted or prevented from serving in the military, the raw numbers for military service are HIGHER among elected officials (compared w/ national averages), and EXACTLY THE SAME for their children.

The reason why moore gave a number, rather than a percentage then comparing that to the nat'l avg? Because the number sounds low, but the number of people serving in the military is sparse compared to the number of people in the nation in total.

And as for why the Bush twins aren't enlisted . . . jesus, what a weak argument. They're college-aged women; do you want me to pull out the figures for how few college-aged, college-enrolled women are enlisted into the service? Do you want to discuss how far from infantry duty they would be required to serve? Or maybe how infinitely different their service duty would be than the woman's son who died?

It's a strawman, and you know it. There is no argument to be found in "why aren't congressional children in combat!??!??!??1"

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Laura Bush heckled by mother of dead soldier
 

What I meant to say is that he's gone through many of the steps to try to recover from his problem. I do understand though that these problems are never COMPLETELY behind you.

I give him credit for his effort in the matter.

So Kerry voted to send us to war in Iraq and then didn't want to fund the soldiers. I think if any mother feels the need to protest someone, they should protest Kerry for not protecting soldiers and not funding the war/follow-up rebuilding.

-Rudey

First, I did question why Kerry's daughters aren't serving. Kerry is a senator, which puts him under the heading of member of Congress. Maybe you should check your own level of jadedness...
Furthermore, I never said Bush killed this woman's son. In fact, nowhere in my comment did I mention anything about who killed him.
What I did say is that certain populations of people are paying a much smaller price for this war. You say that "in a military people volunteer to join," but should that always be true? I personally think that if people (politician and citizens) vote for a war they should have some "skin in the game," so to speak. Charlie Rangel called for a draft when they voted for the Iraq war, specifically because he knew his constituency (which is predominanty minority and often joins the military to get a job and/or obtain money for college) would be paying a disproportionate price for the war.
My point wasn't to specifically chastise a particular person for not going to war, but to raise a philisophical question about a system in which a few people who are insulated from the really painful effects of war are making the decision to go to war.

I can't begin to understand what hell that mother is going through with coming to terms of the death of her son. Most people don't get involved unless the political becomes personal. During the Vietnam War there were moms who against that war as well. Rudey I think she does accept the fact her son is gone. She doesn't want to remain silent. Let's keep in mind that the 9/11 commission wouldn't have been public if it were not for the actions of the widows from New Jersey who chose not to sit on the sidelines.

If there was a present draft for our armed forces I would think there would be just as many parents, whether or not they are in Congress, trying to get their kids out of serving.

=====================
Since you demand that I recognize the First Amendment rights of the woman in question then I expect that you will recognize mine as well. That being the case, I stand by my comments. I consider her actions to be trading on the death of her son to make a preposterous point, ignoring the fact that her son was a serving officer who was in the Army by his choice and who was killed by a cowardly terrorist. While I would gladly fight to defend her right to make a political statement I am appalled at the context in which she expresses that statement. Tacky!
Since you seem to be sensitive to issues of freedom and constitutionally guaranteed rights, might I suggest that you consider that the American military is a volunteer service and that members of congress can't SEND their children into the service. That decision belongs to the young fellow who is going to be at the pointed end of the stick. Same goes for the President and the First Lady, they can't SEND their kids anymore than my Godmother could send me (she is a retired multi term member of congress, and a liberal Democrat, and she is very proud that members (plural) of her family and close associates have served, are serving, and will continue to do so).
As to the notion that only the poor who lack money and connections end up fighting this war, I refer you to one of my early posts from "in country" where I described the demographic make up of my outfit. It was a remarkable cross section of American society.
My comments are not intended to interfere with anyone's RIGHT to make political statements but rather to object to anyone's lack of DISCRETION in choosing when and how to do so. The death of one's son seems a poor occasion to make partisan points.

a.) uh, yes? are you suggesting that America should require service for some? ridiculous.

b.) you are apparently going to ignore my refutation of this point, so I'll address again: according to statistics, members of congress have 'skin in the game' at the same rate as the average american citizen w/ regard to their children, and a much higher rate with regard to their own personal service. what now, SIATS not withstanding?

ETA: Also, dekeguy's point is made beautifully, and is a very strong argument as well - nicely done.

Read the post by K Sig RC above where he addresses your inaccurate statements.

And again, people would go to war in the military. You are trying to make 2 issues into one. If this is an issue about who joins the military (read K Sig RC's post above) then it has nothing to do with us going to war and this mother's son dying. It seems that when someone knocks your argument you back off and make it into a different issue - here you're trying to make it into an issue of certain people going to join the army more.

-Rudey

Not arguing with your logic or the tone of your response, but I grew up with the draft. Not so ridiculous -- it's been done.

Before anyone asks, I'm not in favor of reinstating the draft unless things get a lot worse. Our all voluntary armed forces have done a magnificent job, and the level of education and professionalism has never been greater.

Didn't the funding pass even without his vote? If it did, Kerry voting against it would have no effect on deaths in Iraq.

My point was that comparing some sort of vague socioeconomic 'indenturement' of lower-class, lower-income, lower-education, or minority Americans to the draft is ridiculous, and anyone promoting the draft on the basis of supposedly alleviating those (vague, flightly, weightless) concerns is even more ridiculous.

Feel me a little more now? Although far to young to experience the draft, I don't want to take away from its impact on generations of Americans, that's for damn sure.