Honoring the Thousand
 

Tonight (September 9), moveon.org is holding candlelight vigils across the country to honor the 1000 American soldiers who have died in Iraq. The site http://www.moveon.org has information and http://action.moveon.org/vigil can help you find one near where you live. I think it would be great to have many people attend, including Greeks.

Right...so honor these men in a celebration held by a group that says their deaths were for nothing.

-Rudey

I don't think most of these soldiers would be honored by anything moveon.org has done.

I respect that not everyone on GC agrees with moveon.org's ideology. However, they have promised that this would be "simple and dignified." They also say, "This is not a rally. Although we may be moved emotionally by our shared reflection and acknowledgement, this is not the place for speeches or announcements." Although I have some strong opinions, I was planning to abide by the ground rules and hope that everyone else there does too.

Ummm

"1,000 military men and women have now died in this misconceived war. On September 9th at 8pm, we're joining with the Win Without War coalition to hold hundreds of candlelight vigils. "

Right...

-Rudey
--So basically let's hold a rally to say they died for nothing

Agreed. I pray for the soldiers and their families daily, but there is not a chance in hell that I would attend anything sponsored by moveon.org. I think a vigil remembering the deceased soldiers that also showed their families and all of the other soldiers how much we appreciate the sacrafices they make for our country would be much more appropriate.

To be honest, I believe that there are some parallels between Iraq and Vietnam. The problem is that it's not going well and the Iraqi people don't want us there, no matter what Fox News says.
So I guess I feel the same way about the soldiers who died in Iraq as I do about the soldiers that died in Vietnam. It wasn't their fault that they were there, and they deserve to be honored for their service. When I visited the Vietnam War memorial in DC, I was really moved, and I hope that something equally impressive is constructed for these soldiers. However, this still doesn't mean that I think that either war was justified.

I don't know how Vietnam came up or what it has to do with this, but I've posted several posts on this topic. There is nothing similar other than they were wars and the similarities are to any war and not Vietnam.

Again, this organization has an agenda and it's not to honor the troops. In fact I feel sad that it's doing it because it's trying to piggy back on their sacrifices. That shouldn't be - not with any political part. I believe municipalities and organizations should honor them without any other motive whatsoever.

-Rudey

Until there's a draft, this ain't no Vietnam.

I agree that turning this into an anti-Bush political rally would be abhorrent. However, I think there's another issue here.
Someone told me that years ago, the Prussian king had to ride out into the field after every war and look at the faces of the dead. We're not comfortable with this. Al-Jazeera's Baghdad office gets shut down for showing disturbing images, and there's a flap when coffins of returning soldiers are photographed. In the movie "Control Room," someone says, "Every war has a human cost." We should never forget this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you sign up to serve in the military don't you know that it means you may end up fighting in a war and it may be a war you don't believe in? I am sure it is hard for the soldiers and their families who don't believe in this war, but didn't they know going in that going off to war was a possibility?

This ain't no Vietnam period. (<---see the period?)

-Rudey

What angers me is the illogic of this...where was the candlelight vigil for #1? #145? #999? Are their deaths less significant? Apparently so according to those that disagree with the war.

I don't recall ever reading any political or military manual that says once we reach x number of deaths, it's time for retreat. Sure, maybe on a percentage basis...but nothing about specific thresholds.

Each and everyone of those killed or injured, or who will be in the future willingly volunteered for the risks, to defend our country and way of life, and to guarantee the rights for those who oppose the mission to be able to speak freely.

Each one is a hero in my book.

We as Americans are not comfortable with seeing death ever whether it is woman who was murdered by her husband, a child who was beaten to death by a parent or a soldier who was blown up in Iraq. We are not in denial of what is going on. Some of just don't think it is respectful to show those kinds of things on TV. You could argue that coffins are ok, but the disturbing images - not necessary.
What does this have to do with the vigil anyway? Are they going to be showing distrubing pictures of all the dead soldiers? There is nothing wrong with holding a vigil for these men but what gives moveon.org the right to host it. They clearly are doing it for political gain.

Thank you!

Actually, I'd say that anyone has a right to hold an event in honor of the dead soldiers. So if you don't like moveon.org, maybe your organization could host one. As far as the numbers, I'd agree that the all the deaths are just as important as the thousandth.
Yes, when soldiers enlist, they do know that they may be sent to war. However, I think that our soldiers should never be sent into harm's way without a very good reason, and the lies about the weapons of mass destruction were very disturbing.
I agree that the media should show respect for the dead. However, I think that the human suffering should also be acknowledged, and the Fox-style flag waving tends to cover that up.

WMD lies? There is a thread on this. Why don't you show us the lies.

Vietnam? There is no resemblance to Vietnam. There is a thread on that if you'd like to post.

Fox? There is a thread with a study showing Fox is the least biased. I would think that being the least biased is the best thing.

Freedom to hold ceremonies? Yes they do have a freedom to do that. Nobody here is talking about laws and freedoms. What we're saying is that it's tasteless and disgusting to piggyback on soldiers' sacrifices (The ultimate sacrifices) to get your political point across. It's even more disgusting that Moveon.org a group that trivialized the holocaust through the usage of the imagery of Hitler is doing this.

-Rudey

I'll have to disagree with that statement (though I don't think it disagrees with you personally).

I think we are in denial right now. No one on the "left" side of the political aisle seems to think we really are in a war right now.

The animals that slaughtered the 100's of children in Russia recently are an example...there's not much news in regards to this - we're more interested in another hurricane that might hit Florida again, to really see the terrorist attack in Russia for what it is - an evil act by some evil people bent on total destruction of western society.

Denis Prager put it best recently, and I want you to read this carefully:

"According to the New York Times, when the terrorists took over the Russian elementary school, they shouted "Allahu akbar" ("Allah is the greatest").

"Does this surprise you, dear reader? Does it shock you that the people who deliberately attacked a school and then systematically shot and blew up little children did so in the name of Islam?

"Unfortunately, the question is rhetorical. Having targeted little children for death, there is no atrocity, no barbarity, no act of evil that the human race cannot imagine fanatical Muslims committing."

This does not mean all Islam is corrupt, but the religion has been hijacked by extremists, and I don't know about you, but I haven't seen any recriminations from any Muslim groups about this attack, just like after 9/11.

Here is where my political beliefs in how I will vote were cemented...Kerry told the nation in his acceptance speech that he would RESPOND to any terrorist attack forcefully. Bush said that he will continue to PREEMPT any attack against our country, controversial or not, that's the policy I agree with.

Why? I have three children. If you don't think that terrorists are capable of doing unimaginable violence against the most innocent of victims, you're living either in denial or a dream world.

Sorry for the length of the rant, but I had to get this off my chest.

Read the article I posted on the Russian thread by David Brooks.

-Rudey
--You'll like it

LXAAlum, I appreciate your "rant" and agree with what you said. What I meant was that we are not in denial that our troops are dying everyday but that doesn't mean that we want or need to see their mangled bodies on the TV.

The bottom line to this thread is that moveon.org is sponsoring a RALLY (call it whatever, but that's what it is) to show how the Bush administration killed 1000 of our young people in a war they disagreed with -- at least that'll be their position.

Come on. With a statement like this on your website:

"In the past four days, clashes with Iraqi insurgents have claimed the lives of 17 American soldiers. With these deaths, we mark a grim milestone: over 1,000 military men and women have now died in this misconceived war. On September 9th at 8pm, we're joining with the Win Without War coalition to hold hundreds of candlelight vigils. Gathered together silently in towns across the country, we'll reflect on this terrible moment and honor the fallen."

How can this be anything less than a rally? How many people that attend these will be supporters of our president? Honestly? Probably none.

Moveon.org is a political group. The only thing they exist for is to influence politics. Therefore, this is just another cheesy rally with a gimmick.

I think it's an insult to the soldiers and their families for this group to be invalidating their sacrifices.

Correct - that's why I said it wasn't disagreeing with you personally. Just the context.

The other rant I wanted to get off my chest has been the reluctance or outright refusal of the media to label this as an act of terrorism. The are not Assailants, Commandos, Fighters, Insurgents, Rebels, Militants, or activists, as many media groups have labeled them. They are terrorists, period. Whatever their motivation, no one with a rational mind could call their mission "noble" or "just" when the targeting of innocent children was part of their diabolical plan.

Think about this...they held the children for three days before the massacre. In three days, you'd get to know these children in some manner. You'd think that will appeal to human emotions? It should've...but instead these terrorists willfully shot, stabbed, and burned as many of them as they possibly could at the end....those few terrorists that reportedly were shocked to learn children were involved, and tried to back out at the beginning, were also killed by their terrorist "brothers".

It makes me sick. I just hope this is the wake up call the world has needed. 9/11 didn't do it. Bali didn't do it. Madrid didn't do it (in fact it helped Spain capitulate). I can't imagine a worse attack than one specifically targeting children. I simply can't.

Unfortunately I can... and have seen it....

The reason the media has been all over the board on what label to apply to the hostage takers is that the motivation behind it still in debate.

Okay the simple view would be that they did this for the sole reason of inflicting terror. But if that was the case why did they take them hostage and not simply kill them right off? Could it be that by holding something so prescious (children) that they could draw media attention to the conflict or force serious negotations? Thats the problem... to some they are terrorists, to others rebels.

Now when the identification of the rebels/terrorists have been confirmed perhaps we will know more about the motivation of the attack. It could simply boil down to a terrorist attack, an attempt by the Chechens rebels to garner more media attention to the conflict, or a matter of revenge for anyone of the atrocities commited in a dirty war.

The problem, and how this relates to the thread, is that groups are cynically willing to co-opt any event for their own political benifit. Just as many different factions have alrady begun to use Belan to advance their own agenda, groups likemoveon.org will use a memorial to advance their political agenda... no matter what anyone may think or say.

What a bunch of phooey. You can use terror to draw attention to something political. They are terrorists. It's funny that Muslim and Arab media has called them terrorists. But now it's the West that seems torn on the issue of what is and isn't a terrorist. Cut me a break.

-Rudey

Absolutely.

If they were only fighting for Chechnya, why were there Arabs among them?

Because Islam unites Arabs and Chechans. Today Pakistani jets bombed Al Quada training camps. Guess who the victim included? Chechans. This has happened over and over yet some are trying to deny it. Even the Muslims and Arabs have started admitting it recently. But I guess it's easy to make up facts and pretend they're wrong too.

-Rudey

Because mercenaries have always been used to strengthen armed groups? Besides we are still waiting for confirmation of the rebels/terrorists indentities... as it stands the first 10 confirmed aren't Arab.

Their identities aren't confirmed. That's different from confirming they are Arab. Earlier you tried to pass off that Arabs weren't involved and that Islam had nothing to do with this. Arabs have fought with Chechans for a long time. They are terrorists with strong bonds. Let's not start creating a fake new history.

-Rudey

Do you ever get tired of distorting others posts to conform to you views or opinions?

The indenties of those confirmed aren't Arab... thats the facts as they stand (at least this morning). As for passing off that Arabs weren't involved... I never denied that they weren't, I opposed your views that it was "Arab" terrorism.

Actually it's you who distorts, but anyway.

The news reported that there were Arabs. In the past there have been Arabs. Regardless Muslims feel disgusted that this was just yet another example of Muslim terrorists.

-Rudey

You misunderstood. It is Muslim terrorism because that is the uniting factor between Arabs and Chechyans.

If not for Islam, would they be fighting together?

Of course Kevin. They admit that. The history is there. Even now many Muslims are ashamed that these people are their own and created through their systems.

-Rudey

^ Yup. Neither do the troops that are alive.

:rolleyes:

Well, I'll go and find out how it is. I hope that it isn't a political rally. The exploitation of 9/11 was pretty distasteful, and I hope that moveon.org doesn't stoop to the same level.

Yeah Democrats are good at exploiting issues :(

-Rudey

how in the name of anything on the f-ing planet would you think that an organization that utilized the defining horror of our lifetime for its own means would suddenly decide at this time to hold a 'respectful vigil'?

jesus i can't even WAIT to see the commercials, replete with footage of the 'vigil'

listening to moveon.org, and all of its similar bullshit on either side of the aisle, should be instant grounds for stoning

For what it's worth, when I asked my husband (a Marine) what his thoughts were on this -- he said he doesn't see any difference b/w this group holding this sort of rally and any other group doing the same thing.

Even if it were "respectful", they should know better than to do this and be who they are. The fact that it is even on their website means that they are trying to politically capitalize on this.

There's no way around it.

Let's split the difference and say that politicians are good at exploiting issues.

Well, I went and it seemed quiet and respectful. The organizer read a statement that basically said that there were different opinions about the war, but we all mourned the soldiers. There were no signs or speech related to specific individuals or the upcoming election.