What punishment will work ?
 

If there's a problem with a chapter that continues to have unapproved or underground parties (including providing alcohol to minors, underage drinking, and some hazing), what punishment can work to get the chapter to stop this risky behavior ?

In the past, the chapter has been required to attend risk management workshops, sign statements that they understand the GLO's requirements and promise to abide by them, and required to pay monetary fines to the GLO headquarters. Apparently these things didn't work, and the unapproved parties have continued, and even become more frequent. (And, have taken place in some very scary old houses that look like they could either trap members during a fire, or collapse on their heads).

What will stop it ? Does it take a tragedy within the chapter ? Or will something else work ?

I particularly am interested in current collegians' opinions on what will work, or what won't work. Thanks !

Alums,

How about if we let the undergraduates/colligians reply first. We might learn something.

Then we can add our "wisdom" later.

Just a thought.

Hosting unapproved parties? Before we add our "wisdom", what does this even mean? I'm assuming this is a sorority?

-Rudey

I'm an alum adding my $.02...

If fines and workshops have failed to effect any sort of impact, other options include:

1) The University and/or the national office for the GLO banning the group in question from participating in any sort of new member recruitment for a full school year. This will weed out a lot of members due to graduation or sour grapes.

2) The university will require increased security at all Greek events, and any groups who do not comply will be placed on social probation for an extended period. Students who are in attendance at unapproved parties or who throw unapproved parties will receive some penalty in the form of community service, fines, or risk some form of academic suspension for causing the university a severe risk management issue.

3) The national GLO HQ should send a field consultant out to the chapter for a prolonged period of evaluation and leadership training.

4) The university can kick the chapter off-campus and/or the national GLO HQ can revoke the chapter charter, making these activities neither university nor nationally sanctioned.

ETA: What the chapter can do:

1) Monthly open forum where the chapter provides feedback and suggestions to the exec board without the exec board getting defensive and mouthing off.
2) Required member education monthly
3) Recognizing chapter members when they have gone above and beyond
4) Delegating leadership to chapter members, especially during these workshops
5) Asking for help from nationals, rather than fearing them, and being open and honest with nationals when a situation is brewing. They want to help-- they are not disapproving parents-- they are the management arm of your org.
6) Call people up to standards and be harsh--clean house. Numbers may drop, but so will the problems.

This honestly sounds severe...like you are treating them like little children at best and prisoners at worse.

-Rudey

I'm with Rudey, we need to know 1) if this is a fraternity or a sorority and 2) whether the chapter housing is located on campus.

I believe that any chapter that thinks the rules somehow do not apply to them that actively refuses to do what members of their organization should do should be removed from the organization.

I'm up to the granting of early alum status, suspending charters, making chapters dormant, whatever needs to happen. It's not just about the people that are breaking the rules, it's about the culture within the Greek system. Until HQ's start to really get tough on their chapters trying to change this, insurance is just going to keep heading north.

Try this:
 

Take away their checkbook - have an alum or a private accountant control the $$$.

Allow spending only for approved stuff.

If they want to pay addl. money and have a party, so be it.

What the heck is this approved business???

What does that even mean? In my mind it's someone stealing money from the fraternity and throwing a party and putting up the fraternity banner. This can't be it so what does that mean??

It's probably some sorority BS where the undergrads want to do something and haven't gone through 5,000 approval procedures with alumni, regional whomever, and advisors in my opinion.

-Rudey

a few particulars
 

Yes, this is a sorority. No chapter house, only a common area inside a dormitory floor. Parties took place at privately leased houses in a city, off-campus.

Sorority either attended a party, after organizing attendance, transportation, themed costumes or clothing, or they actually co-sponsored a party with a fraternity group.

"Approved" vs "unapproved" means the parties were not in compliance with the GLO's risk managment policies and procedures. Unapproved means the events weren't approved by the proper GLO-designated advisers, etc. before the events happened.

Parties were funded by "passing the hat". Official sorority funds were not used. It isn't an issue of spending money they shouldn't have, or writing checks out of the sorority account. They funded the party "underground" or passing the hat.

Alcohol was consumed by minors. Alcohol was served via common source, like a keg.


BTW .... nationals have been brough in over the past few years. I don't think the chapter members "fear" the nationals, but I also don't think they respect them either. They just tolerate their brief visit, and then go back to their partying.

Maybe taking individual membership action (suspending people, or "kicking them out") should happen. Would that be a deterrant to chapter members in the future ?

Yes... I'd love to hear from current collegians. Honestly, what do you think would help stop this ???

Re: a few particulars
 

So would they not be allowed to throw a party outside of the sorority? Can they have birthday parties or are they Jehova Witnesses?

Remember if you treat people like children or criminals, then they respond in the same way. But then again sororities have all sorts of silly rules that I can't begin to comprehend.

-Rudey

Is the way they are having parties in-line with the campus Greek Culture?

If thats standard operating procedure you are going to be working up hill against whats been done for years.

If they are having off-campus stuff as a group of friends are they even in violation of your national's rules?

Re: a few particulars
 

I'm "almost" a current collegian (I graduated about 4 months ago).

No offense, but you really can't get at them if they go to a party "not as XYZs". If they want to organize rides etc together - that's their perogative. They shouldn't do that (eta: organizing the non-sorority social outing) during meetings of course, and an alum at the meetings would stop that.

As for co-sponsoring and underage drink - that's a liability|legality issue I can see why you're against it.

I'm always for a sorority dealing with itself, too much interferance from above will only make it worse. Inform them of the rules, let them know they'll get caught. When they are caught, send them to your version of standards and let them deal with it. If your standards council isn't working properly - well, that's another issue all together, and that should be dealt with by the appropriate parties.

Absolutely.

Groups should be responsible for following their own rules. And with that responsibility, they should face the appropriate consequences when they get caught not following the rules.

I wish some national organizations were tougher on their chapters.

I have to agree with ktsnake on this one. It really sounds like pulling the charter is the only thing to do if they are completely ignoring all rules. I'm surprised the nationals hasn't done it already. Our IH is pretty harsh on this stuff (at least in the instances that I know about).

BUT, in this case it was an off campus party so where were the cops? If they were supplying alcohol to minors then they were breaking the law. It doesn't matter what the rules of the sorority are.

The cops in that area of the city (if this is the chapter/school I think it is) have far more serious crimes to worry about. Stopping minors from drinking is about 53,287 on their list of priorities.

If it is a sorority then not allowing them to participate in organized greek activities for a semester to a year, would really be a wakeup call. (ie: Derby Days, official Mixers, Recriutment would be pretty serious but a possibility, Homecoming, etc)

If this is an NPC group (and it sounds as if it is) then they can't be excluded from Recruitment can they? I suppose their Inter/national office could prevent them from participating, but they would probably just close the chapter first.

A sorority can be excluded from Formal Rush but they cannot be prevented from taking members, unless it's by dictate of their national office. If Panhel or the school kept them as a recognized group and didn't let them take members it would violate their Freedom of Association rights.

I already thought about not permitting them to participate in Greek campus events, that I know they LOVE to do (and are reigning champs in many of them). Most members said that wouldn't deter them.


To others, it's not just "sorority BS", the parties (yes, even someone's birthday party) are NOT permitted if they are breaking the local, state or federal laws. They are also not permitted if they are hazing at the parties.

I'm not talking about a casual or impromptu gathering. I'm talking about organized (name tags, themes, etc.), and these are subject to both laws and the GLO's risk management policies.

This group has had many educational workshops, so they can't argue they didn't know the rules.

Pulling of the charter has been considered, a couple of different times, however the HQ has decided that the chapter and members have alot to offer in the way of leadership, scholarship, etc. The chapter is teetering on the edge of existence, but the members don't seem to care about that.

I don't want to argue about the rules, and if they are too strict. They are what they are. I'm trying to figure out ways to incent the collegiate members to follow the rules (and to realize the risks they are placing THEMSELVES and the entire GLO).

Maybe what I'm hearing here is the only things that would work are (a) revoking the charter or (b) taking membership action against the rule-breakers (that's most of the current chapter members).

Well, if you've tried taking them to standards; reteaching standards; emphasising the laws and rules; aren't willing to take away social/membership abilities... what else is there?

There's only so much you can do. If the chapter won't smarten up, and what they are doing is unacceptable to your HQ, then, yes, pulling the charter may be the only real option you're willing to consider.

Could you put the chapter on probation?

Evidentaly, you are not a member of said Organization, but in a placement of the School.

If this is the case, then it is time to give an ultimatim, Probation for one year, if further problems, suspended for what ever length of time and if all fails, Kicked off of Campus..

Has the National Organization been working with them?

If they have not changed with many suspensions, and have broken the regulations continually, then it is time to remove them.

They become a blight on the total Greek Organizatonal Society.

OK, I realize how this is going to sound, and I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like the national doesn't want to pull the chapter because they are large and popular and they're making enough $$$ from them that it outweighs the risk management issues. If this were a struggling chapter, they would have been gone a long time ago. The girls wouldn't continue to flout the rules if they hadn't been shown that they could.

If chapters are to have any respect for policy, the punishment has to be the same for ALL chapters.

Have they gotten caught "officially"? Is there a police report documenting this stuff or some other official complaint? If not it may be hard to take action against them as a school administrator.

I also want to repeat the question: Is this type of conduct pretty much in-line with the way Greek Life in general is conducted on this campus?

One program I'd like to see sometime (are you listening, Campus Speak?) is a mock liability trial done by an attorney, asking questions of the members to show them just how it would be. They did this with us in college for Occupational Therapy to show how seemingly innocent things (like taking paperwork home with us that is supposed to be confidential) can be damaging to the patient, to ourselves and to our pocketbooks. I think an interactive workshop like this could be very effective.

Another wonderful idea of mine that someone will take and make millions off of!

Dee

Great insightful posts by the last three posters.:cool:

Unfortunatly you may be right, if a Organization is big and strong on a major campus, they are given slack.

If this happens, it does show a precident to others.:(

LXA and many others have taken problem Chapters off of Campuses, AzSU. U. Mo. and U. Ark. for just three.

Remember, these individual Chapters reflect not only their respective Chapters, but the whole Greek World.

DCDisney
 

<Parties were funded by "passing the hat". Official sorority funds were not used. It isn't an issue of spending money they shouldn't have, or writing checks out of the sorority account. They funded the party "underground" or passing the hat.>


I know in my fraternity, it doesnt matter if the check has our letterhead on it or not, or if we 'passed the hat' to collect money for a party. The people attending that party only know that your sorority planned and sponsored it. If an accident ocurrs, you're still screwed.

Issues like this have come up when a group of brothers gets the bright idea of "hey, let's get a house to have parties in. It wont be the chapter house, so we dont have to follow risk management, we can have kegs, etc." The answer is always the same. The only thing that the average partygoer knows is that this is a party thrown by XYZ sorority and ABC fraternity, and that's exactly what they'll say if anything goes wrong.

Or, Try this scenerio on for size:

This came up at the risk management seminar at our regionals last Feb.

"Well, that's what we have insurance through Nationals for, right?"
- Wrong. Insurance does NOT apply if the situation results of a violation of your risk management policy"

"What if I live in the house, but I'm on vacation at the time?"
- You are just as liable because you knew the violation was likely to occur and did nothing to stop it. Residents are ultimately responsible for any activity in the house. And, oh yeah, insurance doesnt cover you, either.

"What about Exec Board?"
- Your executive board is liable because they are responsible for the actions of the active members.


Our chapter has the best parties on campus (out of 5 other national fraternities). We follow our national's Risk Management policy as well as this one of our own.
1. All parties are closed (guest list only)
2. All ID's will be checked at the door.
- Over 21 gets a wristband and highlighter 'X' on the hands
- Under 21 recieves a black 'X' on both hands
3. All alcohol brought into our house will be checked at our bar,
operated by brothers over 21, and guests recieve tickets for their
alcohol.
4. Guests may only bring a max of 6 containers. Those containers will
not exceed 20oz each.
5. Guests will recieve one container at a time, opened by the brother
on duty at the bar.
6. No one will leave the house with open containers of alcohol
7. The bar closes at 155 AM (5 min prior to the end of the party)
8. Any alcohol left behind the bar at the end of the party is lost.
9. Any guest found to violate any of these rules will be warned once
then asked to leave the premesis on subsequent violations.
10. Anyone not a brother, associate, or alum of our chapter is
required to leave the premisis at the scheduled end of the party.
11. All brothers on the risk managemnet team that are scheduled to
the party are required to remain sober throughout the duration of
the party
12. no one under 21 will consume alcohol on the premesis
13. No one who is visibly intoxicated will be allowed into the house, and will be required to immediately leave the premises.

Largest party under these rules: 600 guests
Smallest: 250 guests
#removed from a party for violating the rules: 0
Consecutive years as our IFC's 'Fraternity of the Year': 2
Consecutive Greek Sing Wins: 4
Chapter Re-Chartered: April 7, 2001 (Charter revoked 1976-2000. Colonized May 2000)
Undefeated in Intramurals
Highest GPA on campus: 3.22 AVG w/ 34 Active Brothers 2.9 Lowest Individual


Having fun doesn't mean breaking the rules.

Possible outcomes are losing your charter, being expelled from school, being sued, etc. The list goes on. Are these risks really worth it?

Here's some more straight news. This sorority is helping to perpetuate all of the negative stereotypes that the rest of the greek community is fighting against every day.

Bottom line, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.


I'm not one to beat around the bush, as you can tell, but I never write off any situation as un-salvageable. These ladies are going to have to put forth the effort. If it means a little thinning of their active roster, so be it. The needs of the many is what's important here.


I live in my chapter house with 6 other brothers. We were ready to fold the house and thus force the chapter to have all of it's functions on campus because of the poor attitudes of some of the membership. We gave an ultimatum to the chapter. Well, I'm typing this from the third floor of our chapter house, and this place has never looked better.

My advice as an undergrad that has been through problems somewhat similar: Tell them to re-evaluate why they joined, and why they are in college, and if another incident comes up: Dis-Association. End of story. No negotiation.

Good luck.



"I merely drop pearls of wisdom. Picking them up is entirely up to you"

33girl
 

Campus police should police the greek houses. YSU PD and YoPo have a 2 mile mutual assistance area around campus. We're a good half mile off campus, and YSU PD cruises our neighborhood and all the greek houses here pretty frequently, and they have nothing better to do.

Re: 33girl
 

But as she said in her first post, these AREN'T Greek houses. They're private houses off-campus. The campus cops have no jurisdiction there.

And like I said, if this is the place I think it is, it's next to a high crime area. I don't think "hey, can you stop messing around with that shooting/drug bust and go bust the 19 year olds" would go over very well.

Absolutely.

There is also the fact that if you put them on social probation that membership and activity in the organization will dwindle. It sounds like people may have joined for the wrong reasons, so you might as well yank the charter if this is what you intend to do. You can't take away the life blood of the organization to punish it and expect it to thrive afterwards. You are basically dooming it to being "that group" that will take anyone because the popular, good looking people don't want to have anything to do with them.

I'm not torn at all on this. Were I the executive director of this organization, I'd be looking to do one of two things:

#1: Reorganize the chapter -- that means alll the current girls are made alums and told that they can't have anything to do with the new chapter. Maybe leave the pledge class in tact to help with recruitment. Then just start from scratch.

#2: Pull the charter, wait a few years and recolonize.

At some point, to be fair, people who have abused their free choice need to face the consequences for this. If not, what kind of message is this organization sending to the smaller chapters that it keeps on a much tighter leash -- that money is more important than standards in their organization?

Honestly, I know from experience that this would just increase the behavior in question. When groups on this campus were placed on social probation, they would just end up throwing their own parties or "co-sponsoring" parties at fraternity houses. If you're looking to decrease the amount of illegal parties, cutting out the legal ones is not going to do it.

Honestly, there is not much to do at this point except pull the charter or do a "weeding out" -- which may not address the problem and will effectively kill off the chapter at many schools anyway. I agree with 33girl that it sounds like one of those cases where the national HQ is talking out of both sides of its mouth and enforcing policies differently for big successful chapters versus smaller ones, and it sounds like the chapter has picked up on this and knows that nothing really bad will end up happening to them as long as they keep bringing in money/prestige/whatever it is that HQ is keeping them open for.

James- to answer your question (Sheila and I know enough to put two and two together and know what chapter and school this is, but it doesn't need to be mentioned)- from what I understand (i'm good friends with a fraternity advisor from that school), this is the culture of the campus. A lot of kids live in off campus housing ( much like at my school). The campus cops can't do anything about it. And Sheila's right, again, that the city cops have much bigger fish to fry than busting up some parties.

Also from what I understand of this school's greek system, it's kinda at odds with the administration. Actually, most of the greek systems in the area have the same sort of relationship with their schools.

I'm very surprised that the GLO's HQ is so reluctant to pull their charter. They're a huge risk management risk. Just because they do some good stuff and are a "strong" group doesn't mean that they're not opening up a whole lot of liability risks.

Usually its the same person calling the cops anyhow (if its the area I believe it is). The only reason why he calls anyway, is because the students dislike him...

The campus police will only show if the city police call them which never happens unless you do not cooperate (if you call the campus police they will call the city police becuase it's out of their area).

So how Old Was This Dead Thread? Da?

Why was it even brought up?

Yesterdays News.

Well unless some important updates:(

Sorry, but if a need, then do it if not, let it lay to rest.