Inside School Number One: the full horror of Russia's 9/11
 

05 September 2004

The death toll in the worst terror outrage since 11 September rose well above 300 yesterday as President Vladimir Putin called the Russian school siege part of "a full-scale war" on the nation by international terrorists, and made a rare admission of weakness.

Mr Putin made a national TV address as hundreds of distraught people in the Caucasus town of Beslan pleaded with the authorities for information to help them find their loved ones, more than 24 hours after a three-day siege at Beslan's School Number One ended in bloodshed.

Inside the school yesterday, workers completed the grim job yesterday of clearing corpses from the gym where hundreds of children had been held for three days without food or water, surrounded by explosives.

Calling the siege a "grim reminder of the nature of the terrorists we face", US President George Bush told an election rally in Ohio: "We saw the horror of terror in Russia, and I can just imagine the heartfelt anguish of the mums and dads of those Russian kids."

The official number of people killed, according to the regional emergency situations minister, Boris Dzgoyev, was 323, including 156 children. Medical sources said more than 542 people, including 336 children, were in hospital after the crisis ended in explosions and gunfire, but officials have given contradictory accounts throughout. Some estimates put the death toll at around 360.

There was equal confusion over the number and identity of the hostage-takers. Mr Dzgoyev said that 35 men and women with explosives and weapons had been "eliminated" after the 10-hour battle, which erupted shortly after 1pm local time on Friday. His statement was in sharp contrast to claims by a senior prosecutor, who said there were only 26 terrorists, and all were killed. Earlier claims that three had been captured, and that three or four others had escaped, appeared to have been forgotten.

Who the hostage-takers were, and what they wanted, were similarly unclear. Officials were quick to link the attack to Russia's bloody war in neighbouring Chechnya, as well as to international terror groups, amid reports that at least nine Arabs were among the hostage-takers.

The rest of the article is here: http://news.independent.co.uk/europe...p?story=558377

This is truly horrific.

Unlike the United States, Russia is well known for its ruthlessness in pursuing terrorists and other enemies of the state. HAMAS tried kidnapping some Russians years ago in Beirut. A commando attack by the SPETSNAZ (Russian Special Forces) freed the Russians and left several terrorists with their throats cut. HAMAS quickly learned their lesson.

Warning to terrorists: when ya piss off the Russian Bear, he'll relentlessly pursue you and then eat you!

It seems that there are no longer lines that people like this won't cross. Too terrible :(

I had jury duty on Friday, and this was on tv all day - but no real details. As I was reading the details today, I felt sick. Anyone who could do that to a child deserves wrath beyond what any human could dish out! To do this to hundreds of children, along with their teachers & families, is simply incomprehensible.

I can't help but wonder if this could happen here, and even thinking about it scares me half to death!

I wish all countries would pursue terrorists like this.

This was a tragic and horrifying event. CNN is reporting 330 dead with over 200 still unaccounted for, as well as all those in the hospital. I can't see why it *couldn't* happen here... and that's the scariest part.

Dee

Let's hope they don't go overboard and do what they usually do, mass killing of innocent civilians.

Going after terrrorist should be done, but the innocents should not be targeted. Unfortunatley, history is not on the side of the innocents.

Guess what happens when terrorists hide among civilians?

At least the reaction in the Muslim world is one of horror and condemnation. I think that they are beginning wake up and see that most current terrorism is being committed by people in the name of Islam.

I saw a video of a mother searching for her young sons. She found their bodies together on one stretcher under a sheet.

She could only kneel quietly beside them, caressing their little faces, so overcome she was like a robot.

And one girl shot IN THE BACK 46 TIMES??????

These people are so ruthless, so inhuman, that they must be eliminated.

I for one, do hope that Russian bear is awakened.

So, it's ok to kidnapped, murder innocent civilians just in case they are terrorist? That is what is happening in Chechnya. In the end, civilians are the one getting hurt on both side and neither side don't give a damn about it.

Is it OK? No, but its not always that simple. All intelligence gathering agencies are imperfect, and sometimes decisions have to be made with imperfect information. The option of inaction can be the worst option of all. Its not easy to pass judgement on Russia unless you know everything that they know.

Read about what happen during the "winter operation" in Chechnya. It is not about imperfect inteligence, it is about sheer incomeptency and lack of discipline of the once glorious Russian military. It is also about violation of human rights which has nothing to do with terrorism. There are thousand of missing civilians who only crime was they are chechnyan and they are male.

Of course one should not do nothing, but if something mean mass killing, then I rather do nothing.

Please provide a link. I'd like to read about this.

Here is an excellent book about the chechan conflict:

The Chechen Wars: Will Russia Go the Way of the Soviet Union? by Matthew Evangelista

Some articles, sorry no link:

Exploitation of the 'Islamic Factor' in the Russo-Chechen Conflict Before and After 11 September 2001. By: Russell, John. European Security, Winter2002, Vol. 11 Issue 4, p96

The Russian army in Chechnya. By: Felgenhauer, Pavel. Central Asian Survey, Jun2002, Vol. 21 Issue 2, p157

The Chechen Exception: Rethinking Russia’s Human Rights Policy. By: Heinze, Eric A.; Borer, Douglas A.. Politics, May2002, Vol. 22 Issue 2, p86

International Law, Human Rights and the Wars in Chechnya. By: Faurby, Ib. Baltic Defence Review, Jan2002, Vol. 7 Issue 1, p103

Justifying Forceful Resistance to Ethnic Separatism: The Case of Russia versus Chechnya, 1994-96. By: Shulman, Stephen. European Security, Spring2001, Vol. 10 Issue 1, p107

The prospects for genocide in Chechnya and extremist retaliation against the West. Central Asian Survey; Sep2000, Vol. 19 Issue 3/4, p315

To say nothing of the Police. Did you see the video of relatives, etc. wandering through the school? A British TV crew actually got up to the building and took a shot inside the gym while the operation was still going on.

Not going to be much forensic investigation going on at that crime scene after it's been contaminated by the entire town wandering through it.

I believe each family should be held accountable for any terrorists that hide in their house. If terrorists knew the price of terrorism would go up and that their families would be arrested or executed, I bet terrorism would stop. A few extra people may die in the beginning but I bet in the end, less people would die.

-Rudey

Interesting... that's exactly the method used in Chechnya during the winter operations that moe.ron mentioned... if a house or family ever sheltered a terrorist, raze it and the neighbooring houses to the ground... and hey why not shoot out of hand the first son of the "guilty" family" for good messure.

The actions taken by the newly constituted "Cossack" Unit resposible for "pacifing" the region were so appauling that other Russian units refused to serve with them, and asked that the unit be disbanded... finally when the Spentanz complained about the brutality of the Cossack unit (campared them to SS Commando's), the unit was finally disbanded, after 2 months "on the line". Seems the other units felt that the actions of a few brutal men, where creating more enemies than they killed or "pacified". Collective and arbitrary punishments against a population does not work...

They bare responsibility for raising and harboring terrorists. You're trying to meld and mold the facts here. There is a difference between random acts of violence and other targeted acts.

-Rudey

I don't believe I'm trying to mold or meld facts... the brutality of both sides simply adds more fuel to the fire.

Suffice to say I find your advocation of the use of terror irresponsible and hipocrytical... Terror used as a weapon is "evil" and wrong; no matter who wields it, the state or the rebels, the victims will label them terrorists.

I don't advocate terror. I am in search of peace and I am not afraid to see reality on the ground instead of fake ideals.

-Rudey

There was also the case for the Moscow theatre situation. Did you know that two civilians just walked into the front of the door and went into the situation. They were not stop once by the police or the military as they walked into the building. Both were killed when they entered. You have to wonder who is running the police and the military.

We were awake a long time ago. But we just haven't been getting the airtime, if you know what I mean.


And PM Mama, and what's wrong with the area that you go to school?

If that's true, its not just American media that has been depriving rational Muslims of airtime. Its also the state controlled media in the Arabian world, as well as newer private outlets like Al Jazeera.

Most of the muslim world is non-Arab.

Most (if not all) international Muslim-oriented media is Arabian.

Yeah, but I fail to see how Arabian news represents us muslims in other parts of the world...especially in North America.

The strategic issue in the War on Terror is the nations that are economically disconnected from the rest of the world. There is virtually no direct foreign investment in these nations, and oil really doesn't count. Which nations are they? Its Arabs. How is radical disent manifested in these nations? In the name of Islam. Where do they get their popular support? From Muslims, especially through Arabian media outlets. Terrorism always relies on PR, and moderate Muslims have remained relatively silent. They are under attack as much as anyone else.

How will this be resolved? By direct foreign investement so that these nations can be integrated into the modern world. When will this happen? When its safe for foreign investment in these nations. When will it be safe? When foreign nationals are no longer kidnapped and capital is not blown up. Also when there is an educated population that can both participate in the global economy, as well as fight Islamic radicals.

A weapon against Modernity is Arab media, and it is Islamic in conotation. Non-Arab muslims are not really challanging this, so Arabian news represents Muslims by default. Because of all of this, it is very relevant in North America.

I hear those African/Arab/Muslim countries are great places to live. Is anyone vacationing in Sudan soon?

-Rudey

I am wondering the same thing myself. I am not knocking the way they handled this because that would be wrong and unfair, but in hindsight it does seem that it could have been taken care of in a better way. I read in the Washington Post (sorry, I don't have a link) that it was reported that everyone still in the gym was dead so they opened fire, but then later it was said that perhaps there were still people alive in there.
This whole thing is tragic! I think a lot of people are starting to think something like it could happen here. I have faith though that if it did our government would handle it a little bit better.

I still don't see why other non-arab nations should get involved with the problems in the middle-east? Every country has its own interests and problems and basically what you are saying is, just because we happen to share the same religion that the ME is that of a muslim one and not of politics. Don't you think that simple-minded? Non-Arabs essentially don't have anything to do with these conflicts, whether we are falsely represented. And you seem intelligent, and you can tell its false representation, so why insist that it does in fact represent ALL MUSLIMS? Are we, the international muslim community, supposed to take up arms against terrorists, rebels, geurillas, separatists, extremist. movements, etc that falsely uses our name? And if so, what about the Christians, hindus, Jews, etc etc........? wouldn't the same apply to them..?

Again, it is not just Arabs. Stop being so anti-Arab.

-Rudey
--It is Islam that unites these terrorists and not being Arab.

I see... so the suggestion of burning villages, razing homes, or going after the families of terrorists isn't advocating the use of terror?

See this is the same logic used by the Nazis in fighting insurrgents or resistance fighters during WW2 (which they called terrorists)... first it started with reprisals against the "terrorists" themselves... then they decided to target the homes/families of the terrorists for "supporting" them... this of course logically led to the conclusion that anyone "supporting" the terrorists must also be punished as an example, so the whole community was then held to account.

You claim to be in search of peace, but advocate the use of terror to enact revenge against "terrorists", their families, and their communities... without realizing that this will invariably lead to even more hatred and acts of revenge; thus continuing to feed the cycle.

As for your comment of seeing the reality on the ground, I didn't realize that you were also an expert or past citizen of Chechnya as well... or dealt with acts of terrorism personall... or are you just another arm-chair general like your beloved Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz?

Keep talking. You always talk Cooper. You talk as if that itsy bitsy military training has allowed you to talk about things you don't know about. You post lies and misconstrue things all over and sorta just let it go when I correct you so often. Me an armchair general? No - but my ties to Iran and Israel as well as my vast reading everyday of the region and on terrorism help me to understand it. You? Just another Anglo who makes up facts about "the ground" and qualifies it with your "military training".

And again there is a difference between acts that will discourage the use of terrorism by showing the price will increase and acts that just make it easier for terrorism to grow.

-Rudey

Wow your just full of contradictions ain't ya? But anyways I will always keep talking, as that is my right... and also my hope, my hope that by talking others will be encouraged discuss issues of import, instead of being told what they should think.

You deride others for their reliance on books when argueing a point you disagree with, while you tout your book reading as a qualifier of your knowledge...

Now if you had used some of your touted reading ability you might have read in earlier posts about my military service in addition to my military training... I have witness the evil that can be perpetrated in the name of religion or country.

So you have ties to Iran and Israel? So what, does that make you any more of an expert than those who also have friends, family, or cultural ties to the very same region? I am disgusted by your continued allegations and attempts to link either Islam or Arab peoples to terrorism, as if Islam or Arabs are to blame for terrorism.

Your constant insults against other's backgrounds, politics, religion, culture, country makes your post about racist brothers sadly commical - you meet one every day when you look in the mirror. Case in point: using the term "Anglo" or "Anglo-boy" as a insulting or dismissive term is in fact a racist... after-all that is what you would call me if I dismissed you as "Jew" or "Jew-boy" wouldn't you?

Finally think about this please:
Terrorism will be removed when the causes or conditions that breed it are removed, not by using methods that ensure it's survival in an enviroment of hate and an atmosphere of revenge.

You make no sense. And again you are not an expert. I read, you don't read. I have ties, you don't have ties. You make allegations and lie, and I tell the truth.

Again, this was an act perpetrated by Chechans which are majority Muslim with Arab Muslim terrorists who assisted them. Again, you are a little no-nothing who keeps talking and talking. You are the man who threatened also to kill me. You threatened to gut me. You told me there was a reason you left the military and insinuated it was for violence. You want to keep up with the personal attacks even after you shamed yourself and your fraternity Mr. Psycho Killer? Go for it.

You can call me Jew Boy. You can also create posts prefaced with warnings about how some have called you an anti-semite. Being an Anglo and me calling you an Anglo-boy is not racist, not bigoted, not anti-semitic, and not even ignorant. Look up those terms and stop cheapening the sad experiences of others. You are just a nobody that keeps spouting ignorance and lies and that's fine with me because I will keep correcting and embarassing you at every step of the way.

-Rudey

Such irony...
 

I'm sorry, but this whole event that happened in Belsan, Russia--I truly find it ironic...

Putin skrait flexed his ancient KGB ties with "Soviet style" and no more mofo's are gonna fcuk with him and his gang--I mean group... Unless they sniff up some angel dust with crack...

And as far as the "innocents" go... It is unfortunate... But that's what happens in Gangland, U.S.S.R... And if mo'fo's are gonna rob 'n' steal... Well, they gets "got" by the Po-po... :rolleyes:

Biggie Smalls must be rollin' with his Tec-9 in his grave...

Same chit happening here, just a different language...

And that's the word on the street...

If history repeat itself, there will be another "zachistki" which will see men between the ages of 15 and 49 face the threat of theft, beatings, arrest, and murder by Russian soldiers.

According to Jackson Diehl "the campaign by the Russian military and police against Chechnya's separatists has degenerated into a full-fledged dirty war, complete with disappearances, mass graves, systematic torture and summary execution of civilians." Some even called what is going on in Chechnya as mini-genocide.

A 2001 Article On Chechnya

Refugee problem in Chechnya and Russia

-Len Rubenstein, executive director of Physicians for Human Rights

I posted a good NY Times piece in another thread about how instead of sticking to just condeming this awful terorrist act, people move quickly to talk about the Russian government. Two birds, need two stones and Russian soldiers did not stockpile weapons in a school to massacre children, Chechans did.

-Rudey