Hostage situation in Russia
 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131060,00.html

BESLAN, Russia — Armed militants with explosives strapped to their bodies stormed a Russian school in a region bordering Chechnya on Wednesday, corralling hundreds of hostages -- many of them children -- into a gymnasium and threatening to blow up the building if surrounding Russian troops attacked. At least two people were killed, including a school parent.

It's awful what these murderers do. Just yesterday they blew up buses in Israel and killed 15 people.

-Rudey

What's the link between the two stories?

Religion and terrorism.

-Rudey

How about nationalism and terrorism? I can buy that easier as overall reasons. But I'm not sure you can really link the two events.

How about religion, nationalism, and terrorism since it seems that they all have been mixed together in a large pot.

As for how events in Chechnya and Israel are linked - well it's funny that quite often there are Arabs training and fighting in Russia.

-Rudey

Seems to me the Chechnya thing is political. What's religious about it?

ETA, but in some cases I do agree about the pot you mention.

When there are Arabs fighting in Chechnya - a land far from theirs - is it about nationalism or religion?

-Rudey

Sad these terrorists have to use a school to further advance their agenda. These guys are no joke, will do anything.

I'm sure we have guys from EUCOM watching the situation very closely.

Re: Hostage situation in Russia
 

As a teacher I can't even imagine having this happen at my school. We have some emergency preparedness procedures but not much. Stories like this...well, I'm just reminded of how blessed we are to live and work in the USA.

there was a letter in the ISU paper this morning saying that this situation in Russia is why teachers in the US should carry guns to school.
:rolleyes:

It's unfortunate, but Russia can't afford to give these guys what they want. If they do, two more schools will be taken over tommorow.

I say they simply execute the people that these guys want released. Then, their hostage situation becomes a moot point.

Chechens blew up buses in Israel?


Or is the Palestinians who are holding the hostages?



Its funny how every topic about terrorism reverts back to Arabs (even when talking about Chechnian rebels and Nepal ---Non-Arabs).

Please stop linking Islam into these ordeals because these acts are not supported by my religion, as it is against my religion to kill people (with exceptions of self-defense), ESPECIALLY CHILDREN!

So you're saying that it's just by coincidence that about 99% of these terrorist acts are carried out by Muslims?

Can you not admit that there is something fundamentally flawed in the thinking of many people that share your religon?

I can certainly admit that the Crusaders who shared my religion and those who carried out the Spanish Inquisition were Catholic and at the time, there was something fundamentally wrong with my Church.

There are Muslim churches in the US that preach against the West and still consider the destruction of the World Trade Center to be a great day.

And you say these acts are not supported by your religion. That may be true. But there are factions within your religion who would disagree.

OK quick English lessons. Nowhere did it say Chechens. It said murderers. Perhaps in Canada they teach you some of that there funny English.

And again, there are Arab fighters in Chechnya fighting alongside Chechens because they are Muslim. If you feel they are hijacking you're religion, well that's an issue for you to take up with them and not us.

As for Nepal, nobody has any clue what you're talking about.

-Rudey

Many Muslims have different criteria for being in their religion. Many Sunnis says Shiites aren't Muslim. Many Muslims say these people who order jihads and terrorist acts aren't Muslim. One thing remains; they see themselves as Muslims regardless of someone saying they don't think they're Muslims and "they" are a sizable population that can't be dismissed.

-Rudey

Alright I hate to wade in, as I'm sure I'll draw flak from some, but I have to agree with _Opi_... there has been an overwhelming tendancy to equate terrorism with Islam, as if they are the sole perpertrators of horror.

Let us never forget that Christianity has inflicted some truely evil acts in the past century, and past decade for that matter, on others that don't fit their view of the world. Now to draw on past examples... let's see the KKK I believe uses Christianity as a cover for hatred and ignorance... but do the people involved represent Christians? Hell No! Alright how about a more recent example... hmm lets think about the former Yugoslavia for a moment... Serbs commited many horrible acts in the name of Religion and Nationalism, but people always seem to equate those acts with Nationalism or Ethnic tensions, not religion. Every religion has factions within that are so twisted in their fanatical devotion to their "beliefs", do these groups represent the religion though? No.... why should the actions of a few colour our beliefs about the whole?

Right now this issue is about Islam. There are Arab fighters in Chechnya because of Islam.

-Rudey

So you're saying kill off a few people so that the 350 children in the school are killed? wow

I stand by the Russians and hope they are able to secure the release of the hostages and eliminate the terrorists. On this I hope they finally start opening up to foreign aid because several countries have experience dealing with these types of situations. If this turns out like the theatre incident or even the submarine incident (not terrorism but they refused foreign aid) it will be incredibly sad.

-Rudey

If they open-up to foreign aid that might mean having to answer questions they don't want asked about the terrorists motivation in this case...

Muslims on earth: 1,678,422,000 (1998 stats, probably more now)
Countries with muslim populations: Almost all

Islam is the second largest religion in the world

Largest muslim population in the world
1. Indonesia
2. Pakistan
3. India
4. Bangladesh
5. Turkey
6. Iran
7. Egypt*
8. Nigeria
9. Algeria*
10. Morocco*

Only 3 out of the top 10 are arabized countries in Africa

Yes we have sects. So do Christians and so do Jews. We have extremists in every religion.


Every guerrila, rebel, criminal who is happens to be muslim today is labelled terrorist. How many muslim leaders are there? inconsequential to how many civilian and peaceful muslims there are in the world. If Islam propogates violence and we were all criminals, then there would be noone else in the world but muslims, because there are a BILLION OF US, everywhere. For you to link religion to such criminals who conduct acts not even SANCTIONED in Islam, is ridiculous and you know it. You are either being hard-headed, ignorant or just plain IDIOTIC to think that.

You need to stop this anti-Islam propoganda you are spreading in GC, its wrong, and its prejudiced. Maybe this is the only audience you have? Yeah, I really think so.

Listen racist (I can call you names too right?),
they are Muslims and they believe their acts are sanctioned by their religion. You can talk and talk about how they aren't Muslims but at the end of the day they are Muslims.

-Rudey

Possibly.

-Rudey

You have to see the bigger picture here. The Russians cannot and should not give in to the demands of these thugs. If they do, it will open up the floodgates for these terrorists to push the government around. It would practically guarantee this would happen again many times.

Did I say that Muslims were the ONLY source of terrorism?
-- No. In fact, I acknowledge the Crusades, the Inquisition, many acts of the IRA were perpetrated by members of my faith. I'm saying that their view of the religion and what was justified was wrong, but they were still of the same faith.

Ask any one in whose name Bin Ladin's men flew into the WTC. Yeah, I know they're dead. If they were alive, do you not think their answer would be "Allah"?

I don't think that anyone here is saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists and support it. No one said that, yet it seems to be the point you're arguing against.

I think our point (and I don't necessarily speak for anyone else) is that there seems to be a particular group within Islam who believes that terrorism is the way to solve the world's problems. Their religion is Jihad, murder and intimidation. A bastardization of Islam? Ask them, they will tell you no.

If you want to do a survey of the people that support the methods that terrorists use to achieve any end, how many of them do you think will be Christian? Buddhist? Jewish? I doubt there is any actual data on this, but I think we all know what the answer would be.

That's what I'm saying.

Unfortunately, the people arguing agains this don't understand the difference between "some" and "all".

And there is also the misunderstanding of what a Muslim is. I think the only fair way to determine that would be to consider whether or not a person considers themselves to be a Muslim. If they do, then they are. What other standard could we/should we use?

ktsnake,

Since when do you give credit to what terrorists are saying? If they tell you they are saints and are going to heaven if they kill, say a child, would you believe a word? Yet you are willing to believe the fact that they say they are true muslims. They manupilate and distort the religion for their political/national gains. If you think about it, even these disfunct groups are not that SIZABLE. look at MUSLIM population, then look at the terrorist numbers...they are no where near a SIZABLE amount.


Like RACooper said, its like blaming Christianity for producing the KKK.

And actually the word terrorists have be popularized after september 11, and looks like its only reserved for muslim rebels, guerillas, political opposition groups, etc, etc......


Hey, there are terrorists here in America who are christian and caucasian...there are terrorists in South America, etc etc.....we just don't call them terrorists!


Please stop blaming Islam as a faith for the world's problems.

Listen, reading comprehension and logic are very easy. Try to follow.

They are Muslim. Islam doesn't have some huge structure where one Imam or Mufti says this is what happens and this is what is accepted by Islam. Sunnis reject the beliefs of Shiites just like many Baptists may reject the beliefs of Catholics. At the end of the day they are Muslims just like Catholics consider themselves Christian.

Again, they are Muslim.

Let me repeat this. They are Muslim.

Nobody blamed Islam for the world's problems, but let me repeat, much of these Muslim terrorists consider themselves Muslim regardless of what you say and there is a large population often funded by Arab governments that agrees.

-Rudey

So you're denying that these are Muslims? On whose authority? I will acknowledge that members of the KKK, IRA, the Crusades, etc. were Christians. The members of the KKK are great examples because they actually disdained Catholics and considered us unamerican. That doesn't change the fact that they are Christian.

It sounds like we're getting hung up on the definition of "is" here. I defined what I consider to be a Muslim and what most people consider to be a Muslim -- that's anyone that claims that they are a Muslim. Did I say they were representative of ALL Muslims? Nope.

Did I say they were representative of a fair number of Muslims? Like the poor, innocent Palestinians dancing in the streets when they heard about the WTC? Yes.

It's all about how you define the word "is", isn't it?

I think the problem is that we are difining the terrorists by only one of the labels they apply to themselves... basically help perpertrate the image that they want...

That is the problem I have with a lot of the media (and other people's) labels that they apply to these people. I think that US and Canadian media need to take a step back and become more specific in their labelling of these groups. We need to specifically define these groups, to avoid the generalizations, and more importantly to lose sight of the what the enemy actually is.

For example many have labelled the terrorists in Chechnya as Islamists, or Arab Terrrorists, or Muslim Extremists... but the problem is that none of these labels are acturate, and may be misleading. Look it's not a cliche that it is vital to know one's enemy to defeat him; so it is important not to mislead ourselves or others... So labeling them based solely on religion, detracts from many of the other vital issues that actually motivate the terrorists: Nationalism, Ethnicity, Culture, History, Economics, Crime, Revenge, Politics, etc. Or to put it another way, how proper would it be to label the IRA as a Catholic terrorist organization? Yes they are Catholics... but is that they're only or primary motivator behind their terrorists actions?

What a bunch of phooey.

-Rudey

Wasn't the point of the IRA to take Ireland back from the Protestants? Weren't they bombing Protestant targets? Correct me if I'm wrong here, you're a fellow citizen of the Commonwealth with them, so what was it?

I believe you're glossing over my question without answering it. So if these people do these things in the name of their Muslim religion, doesn't that make them Muslims? Sure, not great Muslims or even sane Muslims in the eyes of some of their fellows, but still Muslims.

I still remember that video of people dancing in the streets in Palestinian controlled territory after hearing about the WTC attacks. Are they not Muslims?

I stated that the only fair way to decide whether someone was Muslim or not would be to ask them. If they consider themselves Muslim, then they are. Would you be so arrogant as to think you could devise a better test? So many viewpoints exist on the interpretation of their scriptures that it boggles the mind. Because their interpretations are often different, does that make someone more or less a Muslim based on their interpretation?

If a Catholic is "more right" in their approach to their religion than a Baptist, does that make the Catholics Christian and the Baptists not?

The IRA was/is a Catholic terrorist organization because they target others based on their religion. They operate based on a creed of nationalist/religious material not unlike these folks in the Middle East and Chechnia (sp).

When we take all terrorist activity into account and notice that 99% of it is perpetrated by people claiming a certain faith, that should certainly be enough to turn your head. You're saying that it isn't. Please explain.

The problem in Ireland has less to do with Catholic vs. Protestant and more to do with England vs. Ireland. The Irish want the English to give up their control of Northern Ireland. The English happen to be majority protestant.

Yes, but they are Catholic terrorists are they not?

I believe the point I was trying to prove is that most terrorists are Muslim.

You were disagreeing with me.

I still am puzzled how you could disagree with that.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I am simply providing you with information.

The problems in Northern Ireland are less about religion and more about land. The Irish want their land back.

It's easier to motivate a people to fight/die, etc if they believe they are fighting for a higher cause/power.

This is somewhat outside the scope of the original argument. I agree that it's easier to motivate people to fight/die if they believe they are fighting for a higher power. Hence, the relation between Islam and terrorism.

The statement that people were disagreeing with was that most terrorists are Muslims.

I didn't even think that was debatable.

That was only part of it... much like the Chechans(sp) want autonomy from a state that is religiously and ethincally different. The goal of the IRA was partially to "liberate" the Catholics being oppressed by protestants. However underlying all of this is a strong undercurrent of Irish nationalism, and to a lesser extent cultural/ethinic tension... as the Protestants in the north were "imported" by the English to help them secure the land centuries ago. So there was a number of attacks directed at "Protestant" targets (leading to tit-for-tat between the IRA and the Provos), but most targets were of the "English" authority or colloboraters... to weaken support or infastructure.

Quote:

I believe you're glossing over my question without answering it. So if these people do these things in the name of their Muslim religion, doesn't that make them Muslims? Sure, not great Muslims or even sane Muslims in the eyes of some of their fellows, but still Muslims.

Yes some are doing these acts solely in the name of their perversion of religion... however we and most practicsioners of the religion realise that they adhere to a perverted form of the faith. So yes they are Muslims, in much the same way that members of the KKK are Christian, or Hitler was Catholic...

Quote:

I still remember that video of people dancing in the streets in Palestinian controlled territory after hearing about the WTC attacks. Are they not Muslims?

Maybe... could also be Coptic Christians. Okay lets say they were Mulsim... was their celebration motivated by anti-Christian feelings or by anti-American feelings? Or more likely they were celebrating that Israel's main backer and ally had been attacked... so I'd say a fair bit of anti-Israeli feelings motivated them....

Quote:

I stated that the only fair way to decide whether someone was Muslim or not would be to ask them. If they consider themselves Muslim, then they are. Would you be so arrogant as to think you could devise a better test? So many viewpoints exist on the interpretation of their scriptures that it boggles the mind. Because their interpretations are often different, does that make someone more or less a Muslim based on their interpretation?

Well yes if the identify themselves as Muslims, that is what we the world will percieve them as... however it imperative to realise that they may not be acting based solely on their religious denomonation. It is important to keep that perspective, and even more important to not simplfy or dumb-down the issue of their religion. We need to always bear in mind that those terrorists motivated by religious fanatism are religious fantatics, not simply followers of that religion.

Quote:

If a Catholic is "more right" in their approach to their religion than a Baptist, does that make the Catholics Christian and the Baptists not? The IRA was/is a Catholic terrorist organization because they target others based on their religion. They operate based on a creed of nationalist/religious material not unlike these folks in the Middle East and Chechnia (sp).

Well Catholics percieve themselves as the "right" interpretation of the Christian faith... however they do acknowledge that the Protestant religions are adherents of Christ and therefore Christians... just misguided.

The IRA didn't solely chose their targets based on religion... but many other factors... just as the Provos solely target Catholic targets. The problem is arises that if we believe that this (religion) is the sole reason behind an attack, we don't understand the enemy and therefore can't effectively counter the enemy. Much like the IRA the terrorists/insurrgents in Chechnya are at their most basic motivated by revenge, politics, ethnic/culture, history, and religion...

Quote:

When we take all terrorist activity into account and notice that 99% of it is perpetrated by people claiming a certain faith, that should certainly be enough to turn your head. You're saying that it isn't. Please explain.

99% of terrorist activity world-wide isn't perpertrated by followers of the Islamic faith... I'd say it's closer to 33% at best. Unless a lot has changed in the past year the greatest contributors to terrorist acts are still fanatical Communists (such as the Shining Path). Political Ideology terror has always been the largest percentage of terror since the turn of the last century, Nationalist terror acts usually took second, but now Religion has started to make a comeback as a source of terrorists - ironically roughly corresponding to the decline of the USSR.

Let's all remember that Muslim Arab fighters are fighting alongside Muslim Chechans because of religion and not nationalism.

Let's all remember that these aren't isolated people or groups. In fact today a high ranking Egyptian Islamic official said it's the duty of Muslims to fight in Iraq against Americans. These are groups that have grown - groups that were once killed in numbers of 30,000 by Syria but serve their state leaders' interests and are now allowed to grow.

Of course not all Muslims are like this but some Greekchatters have made this religion "untouchable" and make comments out to be what they're not. For example here is an editorial from the Kuwait Daily in support of wiping out terrorism http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD77504

-Rudey

An update on the hostage situation
 

Here is an article from the CBC.


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...sis040903.html