Counseling Psychologists/Family & Marriage Therapists HELP PLEASE!
 

Okay, I want to be a counselor, specializing in Marriage and Family Therapy. I am 99.9% sure this is where I want to go with my counseling. Do you suggest I do a specialized program for MFT or should I just do the general Counseling Psych, and specialize with that? I know with a doctorate I get more money, but I don't even want to think about that yet. With a Master's degree, I need a minimum 2 years, 2,000 hours POST DEGREE before I can be fully liscensed or get a certificate (for the MFT and the LCPC). What types of locations/facilities would I have to work in in order to complete this requirement?

Have you considered getting an MSW degree? While it is not easy by any means, and there are rigorous field requirements, this degree doesn't sound as intensive as what you are describing, and SW's can basically work with ANY population. I don't know too much about the degree program you are discussing but I do have a friend who is getting her PHD in psych right now and it is VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY difficult. I think Psychtau (???) "may" have similar background/training regarding what you are asking.

They tend to overkill you a bit with education for those types of degrees.

In the end it comes down to how well you read people. Which is awful hard to learn.

Practicing bartending might not be a bad preparation. Or sales.

I am only half kidding. :)

east carolina university has a very good MFT program. i applied and got an interview this spring, but unfortunately i didn't get accepted. they only take 12 people each fall and i think it's a good thing to have a lot of experience, which was what i lacked. i struggled with the same issue. maybe instead of getting a PHD, try going after a PsyD. I think those are less research intensive and more counseling based. i'm not sure though. it seems as though MFT is getting very popular now though. in one of my undergrad counseling classes, it seemed like most of the people in the class wanted to go into MFT. good luck though!

I think James is onto something. I really didn't get too much out of "book knowledge". It is all about people skills. EIther you have it in this field or you don't. You can memorize all the "theories" in the world but it comes down to how you can handle people in a crisis situation.

Well since you asked for a counseling psychologist, who would actually know what you need to do, let me chime in here. I'm on my internship now and will complete my phd (in four years thank God) next summer.

The others are right in that with JUST a MA degree you can work with anyone (same is true for phd work of course) if you use a general degree. A social work degree is NOT the same as a MA in counseling and while some agencies will hire you others will not because they want you to have specific training that is not typically a part of social work programs, ie learning how to use the diagnositic manual that most insurance companies expect diagnoses to come from so they can reimburse you--it may seem minor but we are about to have to train all the social workers on staff on an instrument that I've been using for six years now and they have essentially never utilized.

You can work with an LPC, or similar license, in most states but you also have to pay for weekly supervision (unless it's part of your compensation package and that usually lowers your salary) while you get your two thousand hours and I believe have be under someone else's direct supervision after that indefinitely--meaning it's doubtful you'd be able to do private practice work unless a licensed psychologist was willing to supervise you indefinitely. Once you get the phd you work for a year longer than you would for the LPC to meet your hours requirement but that officially ends you needing any type of supervision from that point on when you get licensed.

As far as specialization goes, just note that the more specialized the degree is the more restricted your career options become in some sense. I could have done a sports psych phd but it wouldn't have given me the more generalized training I would need to do what I want to do now and that is focus on more family concerns, emotional disorders and the like. By picking up cognates (doctoral majors essentially) I still got the specific information I needed without jeapordizing my training experience and future marketibility.

Depending on your area a two to four year (for those folks that are working full time and can't attend classes like other students) may be your best option. But if you were going to do that (and then tack on AT LEAST another 18 months to finish the 2000 hours typically) you might as well consider a MA/PhD program which is anywhere between 5 and 7 years usually and then there's no starting over in a new program with new issues if you decide the PhD was really what you wanted. And it's not just about the potential earning power either, I can do anything now from run a college counseling center to teach college to be a contract psychologist for the military if I wanted to. It would be difficult at best for me to do that with a MA or a MSW. And I understand everyone's concern that school is hard but if it was easy then you'd have a lot of less qualified people out there harming other folks who really need help.

That is so true about many programs. It seems that these days everyone is seemingly going into counseling and social work. Due to this many schools are bombared with applications so they are increasingly choosey about who they take. (Especially public schools which tend to have cheaper tuition). As a rule though I think if you have demonstrated interest and committment to this field, you will most likely get in. From what I am hearing a lot of INTERNSHIPS are becoming more choosey in who they take. Case in point, my first year field placement traditionally would take students with NO experience in the field. They have learned over the years that this is difficult because of the complex problems these clients are dealing with (usually both legal and mental health related). Because of this my former field instructor is requesting only 2nd year students. Random blurb though........Continue on..........

Every client you have isn't in crisis and those that are usually need to have that resolved before any work is done. Yes it helps if you have good intuitive skills that are CORRECT. But some folks infer based on faulty data that they somehow attribute to the client which just causes more trouble. And those "theories" should be your basis for intervention because if not you are flying by the seat of your pants and while that usually won't mean a thing the one time it is a mistake could be a DIRE mistake.

This isn't necessarily true. I have extensive knowledge with the DSMIV. Maybe it's because my specialty lies in mental health. It is so important getting this training as a Social Worker. Unfortunately, unless you are a clinical major, it is not emphasized.

How is it not true lol when you just said the clinical specialty is what made sure you knew how to use the DSM? It's not training that I believe most social work programs push. At least not with the individuals here or the ones that I know with social work degrees. Many have taught themselves the DSM by necessity but it was not a core component of their training.

I know this. My point was that "some" people think that just because you went to class and read the texts you know how to work with people. This isn't true at all.

I am currently cleaning up "mistakes" from a former co-worker with my clients. He had no advanced degree, (not even a BA). In the MSW program, extensive training is given on how OUR values influence the work with the client, and often can bring harm onto them. He always acted from his "gut" without the knowledge of harmful outcomes. For example, he told a couple with both mental retardation and mental illness and limited functioning ability in the community who wanted to live together that "it was wrong to live together because it was not appropriate in the eyes of God and they should get married instead". He never consulted their residences, psychiatrist, therapist---anyone. They basically ran off and got married and now are living in nothing less than a crack house where they are mentally and physically abused every day, food, money stolen, etc. He also went and hired a private detective to locate the family member of one of my other client's that she hadn't seen in 20 years after she brought this up ONCE in a "session". Again, he didn't consult the treatment team. She has been showing signs of increased depression and her residence didn't know why until I pointed out about this taking place prior to my coming to their program. I guess where I am trying to go with this is that the KNOWLEDGE you gain from any advanced degree program in this field in important. Psychologists and Social Workers are trained completely differently though and often are in battle with each other because of our different schools of thought.

Which is why Social Workers are Social Workers and Psychiatrists/Psychologists are Psychiatrists/Psychologists. You work in the MEDICAL model, we don't diagnose clients, prescribe medication, etc. (Although if you work in mental health as a SW you become pretty good at this). I don't think this thread is supposed to be about which profession is "better" or "more knowledgeable" which is the tone I think you are trying to set. The woman was just asking for info about a program.............So let's get back to the original question.

Please be accurate when you speak on my field. Psychology is not oriented to a MEDICAL model. Psychiatry is and we are in perpetual conflict with them over it. We diagnose only when we have to (at least from my training program) and we use medication when it's the only way to address the issue at hand. I never made it into a SW versus Psychology debate (at least that wasn't my intent, you've been the one analyzing each of my posts) I gave her the information from the COUNSELING PSYCHOLOGY field and the benefits I see in my degree.

We don't have to agree, heck we don't agree, but I believe my original post outlined potential drawbacks with any degree. MSW may not have as much training but it may feel (only to that individual) to be an easier program to get through. MFT is a good program but it limits your job options. A phd in Counseling Psych, not clinical so I can't speak to what they know more than my personal interactions with them, provides good training and opens up a number of career options for me but is very time intensive and everyone doesn't make it through okay. Again the information is out there, it's my opinion on the options from the viewpoint of someone in the field that was requested.

Thanks you guys for sufficiently scaring me LOL.

The time involved is WAY more than I ever thought it would be, and being that I already have a chgild, I really don't know if this will really be the right route. I have to REALLY think about this, especially since it looks like I'll need a PhD just to get ahead....

But I GREATLY appreciate the feedback from those in the field. Social work doesn't really fit my interests, so that wouldn't work, plus the available jobs for social workers in my area are few and far between, my soror has a MSW and her license, and she can't find anything new. Now all the jobs want social workers that have the next license that she can't get yet. SO that's not for me.

I still have to figure this all out :(

You'll want to check with your state regulations on this. Licensing and Certification for counselors/psychologists/psychiatrists differ from state to state. I'm planning on specializing in I/O Psychology and am trying to figure out what sort of certifications I need since I/O isn't technically in the health field.

Checking with your state to see what their requirements are is great advice. Certification and licensure and job definitions and requirements vary depending on the state in which you live.

I can do a number of things with my degree, and do not feel limited because I do not have a PHD. I completed my school certification, and am currently working in the schools. I am also working towards my LPC, and National Boards while employed. I'll kill two birds with one stone in the next two years, and have a pay increase based on the National Boards. I will not get one due to having the LPC, but will increase my marketability should I pursue other avenues.

Other things I could do with my degree are private counseling (and yes, I did have a class on the DSM IV so I can diagnose clients), agency counseling, human resources, college advising, career counseling, research, consulting and some psychological testing to name a few.

In my state, when you want to get more specific to have a title, such as MFT, substance abuse or geriatric counseling you will have to complete those hours of supervision no matter what degree you have. If I had a PHD and decided that I wanted to be a certified substance abuse counselor - then I would still have to complete the necessary requirements of getting that certification, which again in my state will include 2000 hours of supervision. It does not necessarily come with the PHD degree unless you follow that track from the beginning.

If you have a clear picture of what you want to do as far as counseling goes, then make sure that you target your internship hours towards that. If you want MFT, then have supervision by an MFT, and then you can count those internship hours towards the required 2000 hours of supervision.

You will find as you explore the mental health field that there are many schools of thought (MSW, MA Counseling, Clinical and Couseling Psychology, Psychiatry, etc) and you need to pick the one that is right for you.

BirthaBlue4 - I completed graduate school with three girls in tow! It can be done!
PM me if you want to hear more about it!

BirthaBlue4, you've gotten some great advice. I was going to add the bit about knowing what your state requires, but I was beaten to the punch!

The only thing I'd add is to attend some seminars held for those you'd like to counsel (ie: Parents Without Partners, Fresh Start, Inc, etc). Let those in charge of the seminar know that you're going for an advanced degree - they will be more than happy to have you sit in on it! Learn how to listen without letting your jaw drop, and when to speak. Learn when a gentle touch is needed, and when it would offend. Watch the dynamics of a large and a small group. Even if you hate it, the experience will help you both in your career, and look great on your resume.

Re: Counseling Psychologists/Family & Marriage Therapists HELP PLEASE!
 

Hi!

I'm new to the board, but I saw your post and wanted to answer.

I am a Pre-Licensed MFT in CA. I've finished my hours and sat for the 1st of my 2 Board exams for licensure...What your questions boil down to is what your interests are, what your long term goals are, and what your state licensure requirements are...I worked in a county Mental Health Clinic to satisfy my hours post-degree. It was a tough position, but the experience was valuable and the hours were accepted by my Board without any problems.

In CA, as a therapist, PhD's don't make any more or less money than a MFT in a private practice. PhD's are best for teaching in a university or research purposes. Private practice? Doesn't matter, so I'll stick with the MFT...

Hope this helps!!:)

Wow, I'm sorry I found this thread so late. I'm trying to break into the mental health field, I already have my BS and am trying to look for some kind of entry level position and am having a HARD time doing so. (I'm in the MD/DC/VA area). Any advice would be appreciated. I'm in the process of applying to Howard's Master's program in Human Development, with the idea of eventually going for a Ph.D in Counseling or the PsyD program, probably at GWU. OR should I just go for a MA in Counseling? Thanks

While I would recommend you go on for an advanced degree of some sort, you can find a job in the interim in the mental health field. I would recommend you find a County mental health position...you can apply for a mental health specialist position. While it's more case management, it'll still give you some vast experience in crisis and working with the chronically mentally ill.

As far as the PhD vs. MA/MS debate, it depends on your area, the expectations of the area insofar as determining the needs of MD/DC/VA area and what your long term goal is....in CA, an MS in Counseling is sufficient for private practice in counseling as you work towards the state license...Getting a PhD or PsyD won't help me in private practice...these degrees are great for teaching in a University or for research...but I'm not interested in these arenas...

Good luck!

Nikki: I suggest looking into a mental health residential or outpatient program. These are great entry level positions. Be prepared not to make $$$ though. You will be exposed to EVERYTHING though this way, and it is a great way to learn if you really are ready to make a committment to this field. Let me know if you have any other questions :)

I've got a LOT of questions, but Friday's discussion led me to do more job searching, and I am applying to two state positions at separate inpatient locations. What can I expect for starting salary? I have some experience (5 years) working with DD children in a very informal setting.

If you want to do therapy and want insurance reimbursement, try at LEAST for a LCSW. See your state guidelines

Well I can only speak from what salaries range in New York. (From the multiple listservs I belong to SW & related salaries in other states are even less). If you can get a state position in NY you can make a pretty decent salary (well, by SW terms, decent)IF you have a professional (meaning Master's level) degree. I know SW's that work say, for the state office of mental health make in the mid-upper 50's in NYS, maybe more if they are a supervisor. Most non-profits pay even less. The average pathetic starting salary for even a licensed SW in NYC (less in more rural areas of NYS) is between $35-40 a year. Now I know if you don't have a Master's divide that in half and that should be what your starting salary will be. I know that many of the agencies in NYC that work with the DD population pay little. My friend worked at an agency called YAI and this was before her MSW she only made like $22,000 a year. I was thinking of applying here for a Master's level position, and the HR person was up front with me and said I wouldn't be making close to what I am making now (even in a MSW position), which, is not much. It's really hard to live on that amount of money. People do it, myself included, obviously, but it's hard. I really enjoy what I do but if I could go back and start all over, I may have chosen a different field. It's really hard being a single person in an expensive metropolitan area living on a non-profit salary. I am hoping to get my license by the new year, but even then, I might make like $5,000-$10,000 more a year, which we all know, by the time they take taxes out, I still will only be getting maybe a couple hundred dollars more a month in my paycheck. The other thing I want to be straight up about to anyone thinking of going into this field is that it is FLOODED right now. So many people with years of experience, a Master's and a license can't find a job. If you are from out of state it's even harder. They aren't gonna tell you that though when you go to grad school because they make money off of you there. Feel free to ask me any other questions :)

I really can't tell you what to expect for a salary in your location. But if you want experience, an inpatient setting will show you the more severely ill of the spectrum, which is good experience to have. As soon as I graduated with my master's degree in psychology, I went to work as "staff" (they called us Residential Treatment Counselors, but we weren't officially Counselors....title looked good on the resume though!) at a long term, locked, psychiatric treatment facility for adolescents. I worked there full time while getting my Master's in Counseling Psych. Let me tell you, I LEARNED SO MUCH MORE there than I did in the classroom (as far as interacting with clients goes).

If you are interested in the psychiatric field, consider looking for a position in a psychiatric hospital that serves all populations (substance abuse, psychiatric, adult, children, adolescent, etc.). That way you can move around to different units and figure out what populations you like to work with and ones you dont. You should also be able to see what the social workers do vs. what the psychologists do in their daily work (depends on how they staff their units).

By the way, this info was based from my experience in Arkansas.....which I know is WAAAAAY different than New York. But, it might spark some ideas for you.....

Good Luck and let us know what happens!
PsychTau

Thanks to everyone for your insight and for sharing your knowledge. Its been very helpful!! :) I went to MD's liscencing site (its FINALLY up) and got some more liscencing info. I also found the MD. Psych Association website but it wasn't helpful to me as a student. :( That was disappointing.

I just finished an application for a residential counselor position, and am planning on dropping it off today. I am trying to get in touch with a past professor so I can make a better decision re: straight psy.d or go the master's route.

My focus has always been working with children (birth to five) and/or adolescents. For the year I was at GW in the Infant Special Ed program, I concluded that I was very interested in the assessment portion of early intervention. (I didnt finish b/c it was too interdiscplinary: I wasnt interested in OT or PT, but I did like the speech aspect). GW's Psy.D program allows one to determine a track and a minor, one of which is assessment and child development, essentially. I already know that I dont want to teach, or do extensive research, or publish. So I know a Psy.D program would be better suited for me in that sense. I'm a little concerned b/c I am lacking research experience.

For anyone who cares, I got the residential counselor position. :)
Pay sucks. :( BUT its in my field (YAY!!) and the lady I interviewed with was very impressed with my career goals, and they promote from within. The company is based out of Baltimore, so if I can move up there, that would be easier on the pocketbook. New hire orientation is Thursday, and training begins after that (at minimum wage..).

I'll keep you posted.

Congratulations. The job you have now may suck but trust me, you will learn a lot and you will probably advance quickly as well, especially with your goals. Good luck!!!

Update. I went through two weeks of training, including medicine administration, and decided that the job was not for me. They were asking me to do way too much for the minimal pay I'd be getting (you want me to give ppl beh. mod drugs for $8 an HOUR? wtf?). I took a temp position at an agency that lists Human Service organizations and that's been interersting, to say the least. But the pay is good, and that is what I need right now. I actually work with someone who is in the program I'm considering and he's agreed to be a kind of mentor for me. I just found out yesterday that I was offered a county position as a Human Service worker (temporary assistance). While thinking about what I want to do when I grow up (lol), I decided that I had no face to face interaction with adults, and this county position can give me that. In the meantime, I'm still applying to grad programs and looking for money to pay for my master's degree. This new job offeres tuition assistance and assistance for learning a foreign language, so this could be a great catalyst for my career. Again, if anyone is intrested, I'll keep ya'll informed. Thanks again for all the great advice and information.

Yeah, keep us posted. My position sucks right now (if you've seen my other threads) but I am looking for a new job. Hopefully something will come through in the next couple of weeks. The one thing that you run across in our field is that certain positions are definately not for everyone, and we are definately underpaid for everything they want us to do as you mentioned! I've actually had to pack meds in the past because the program I worked for just couldn't find a p/t nurse because the pay was so low. Yeah, right there shows that we are asked to do unethical things that are not part of our expertise. I wouldn't do it now though anymore. Which is part of the reason I want to leave my current position. I didn't spend 60grand to go to Social Work school to be a police officer and get yelled at every day by other providers who are NOT my clients............If you are not my client, there is no reason you should be treating me like S%*T if you are also a social work professional..........

Which I dont understand. We spent three days on Med administration, followed by a written test, followed by a demonstration with one of the RNs on duty. But you only want to pay me 8 an hour?! And I have a college degree? Uh, no. Where is all this money that the program gets from the state and Medicare/Medicaid going? That bothered me. But anyway, I am still pressing on with schooling and getting a foreign language down.

Nikki...
Sorry that it wasn't a good match for you. However, I see a BIG RED FLAG in your post. From my understanding, you cannot adminster medications unless you have a Nursing license. When I was an RTC, only the nurses had keys to the med room, and only nurses could physically hand the medication to the patient.

This of course was in Arkansas, so it could have been a state specific law, but I figure it is a law that everyone follows. Plus, you'd be SOL if that patient had an adverse reaction to the meds and you didn't have enough medical background to treat it.

Probably a good thing you said "Adios!" to them, huh? :)

Good luck on your search!!
PsychTau

Actually in MD, I am now a CNA, a certified nursing assistant. I can do everything except give shots, but i can give oral and topical meds, plus first aid, cpr, restrictive techniques, etc...

still wasnt enough money though. and i feel selfish and greedy for saying that, but still..

Never feel selfish and greedy for saying that! While we don't go into our profession "to make money" we still need to make a decent salary to live on. Non-profits especially are infamous for trying to save a buck any way they can and if that means cutting corners and having other employees do the work of 2 or 3 employees, to save money on hiring others, they will do it. I am actually going through this right now at my very own program and is just another reason I am getting ready to say adios. I actually have an interview this Thursday and the man scheduled it for 7 AM so I can go there and then to work without raising a lot of suspicion;) . AND this is for a position where I will actually be supervising other employees and NOT working in mandated-client hell, so wish me luck. Good luck to you too and keep us posted!!!

I completely agree with this statement. I went to a seminar a couple of weeks ago on private practice. The presenter stated, "You need to charge what you are worth...this is a business and you need to be able to sustain yourself."

Yes...If I wanted to make $250,000/year, I wouldn't have become a therapist, but there is no reason that I shouldn't be able to live a comfortable lifestyle that I'm accustomed to...

Ahhh....CNA....didn't think about that....

I echo what everyone else has said. We did not get into this field to make tons of money (well...I'm not in the field anymore...I'm in Higher Ed...which I also did not go into to make tons of money...;) ) HOWEVER....this is a difficult job and one that deserves pay relative to the risks we take. A lot of non profits just don't have the $$$ to pay more, but if it's a good, positive place to work, the non-$$$ benefits make up for it. However, theres also lots of non profits who (in order to show a "non profit" at the end of the fiscal year) uses up what they have left buying new computers every year and other crap (things that aren't really needed). Those are the companies that probably won't give you a rewarding feeling working for (I speak from experience!).

Keep looking you guys!!! The right fit is out there!!

PsychTau

Thanks, you all. :) As much as I love psychology, I did not get into it to become rich, but I would like to be able to feed my kid at the VERY least.