Sholuld Greeks Speahead a movement to reduce the drinking age to 18?
 

Underage drinking is killing Greeks more than any other topic.

But I think its like the prohibition situation, you have just have to concede that 18-20 year olds are going to drink and that coming up with stiffer and stiffer penalities is just a way of persecuting a group of citizens

As far as Greek Life goes, this generally accepted social activitiy is going to be the bane of all of us because its a behavioral fact: People drink under age.

ITs the single biggest reason why chapters get their pulled. And in almost every case where the drinkers are underage, the chapter is auotmatically at fault.

I think greeks should head a lobby to do this before we eventually lose it all.

that's an interesting idea...doubt there'd be enough support though.

But where do you get your "behavioural fact" from? can you cite me some studies please?
I know I am not what most consider normal since I did not drink before I was 19 (which is the legal age here) and I've never been "wasted" and I always watch what I drink. I've never been an uncontrolled freak like most other youth out there.

I'm not an extraordinary person, so why is it so hard for others to restrain? Yes I know waiting til 21 must be very diffficult, but get over it. It's fricken alcohol.

And don't you think if greek members were to head a lobby, it would just add to the negative image Greek Life already has?

I was at a bar with friends downtown one night and a couple fraternity guys started talking to us. They were from somewhere in Illinois I think. Anyway, when we told him we were in a sorority here, he asked what the point was of joining a sorority or fraternity here since we could all drink? I told him as president of my chapter that was a pretty narrownminded view and almost offensive statement to which he replied he was also pres of his chapter.
I hope that this American Greek isn't representative of all of you because I certainly think it's pathetic for men and women to join Greek Life ONLY to drink. (as one of many reasons, sure, but for the sole reason - no)

I agree with James 110%.

Greeks' relationships with their national headquarters have gone downhill (overall) as the HQs are forced to be policemen instead of inspirations and sources of help. Same for the school administrations.

Canadian drinking age is an entirely different story - if I'm not mistaken, until recently there was an extra year in high school which meant many students didn't even enter university until they were of age. In the States, depending on when you entered kindergarten, you sometimes don't even turn 21 until the last semester of your senior year. This is also a BIG BIG BIG BIG reason there are issues with senior retention. The seniors all want to go to the bar instead of having alcohol denied to them at a chapter function - and after waiting 21 years, who can blame them?

No, Greek life isn't all about drinking. But this type of prohibition of a group of adults has had the same effect that the Eighteenth Amendment had - it's made criminals out of people who normally would never break the law.

This is also a pretty shallow view on youth if you ask me. You had some good insight in your post but when I read this I realized that you fell victim to the "most young people shouldn't drink because they can't handle it" crowd. That's simply not true because alcohol doesn't play favorites and it doesn't care about age. Anyone can be an uncontrolled freak and I tend to think that "most youth" are not but instead get labeled this way because of the few that are.

BTW what one American Greek says does not speak for all Americans in the greek system. I'm sure you'll find some in the Canadian system that have the same feelings because it's bound to happen no matter where you go.

I don't think the "uncontrolled freak like other youth" has to do as much with individual maturity as it does with societal factors. Plain and simple: American youth have more incidents with alcoholism and alcohol-related injuries/deaths then any other country in the world. Rather than it being that American youth have no maturity and are uncontrolled freaks, I think it's that we view alcohol as a forbidden fruit. The drinking age is 18 or 19 in most other countries; in many of those countries, the law is pretty lax and children in their teens have their first sips of wine with their parents. It's not like that here. We go into college away from the watchful eye of our parents and we're now around a bunch of people who are around our age. We join greek organizations and our big brothers/sisters are of legal age. I remember when I first joined ZTA how jealous I was of the older girls who could go out to all the bars and drink. It results in underagers getting fake IDs and drinking way over the limit since it is forbidden.

If the drinking age were lowered to 18, we wouldn't just have less problems in our greek organizations but we would have less problems in the country as a whole.

But, as for Greeks lobbying to lower the drinking age, I don't think that's such a good idea. We're already stereotyped as drunked, oversexed kids that live off their rich parents. Greeks lobbying to get the drinking age lowered would probably be almost humorous for some anti-Greeks.

I tend to agree with James as well.

While I was chapter adviser, my biggest source of stress was trying to police underage drinking in the chapter. I tend to think that if the drinking age were 18 or even 19, alcohol abuse wouldn't be the huge issue that it has become for college-age students.
Unfortunately, underage drinking isn't just a Greek issue, it's a college issue, and I think we as Greeks are just more concerned about it than universities in general are. I tend to think that non-Greeks have a larger population of underage drinkers in a college setting, because they don't have an organization over them telling them/educating them not to do it.

However, I also agree that if Greek organizations were to lobby to change this, it would be bad press for us. Those outside of the Greek system already think all we do is party, and if we were to lobby for a lower drinking age, it would only add fuel to the fire.

The US is the only industrialized country that has a 21+ legal drinking age. Alcohol use is made into such a huge issue in the US - there are two amendments in the constitution dealing with it. Not only that, but it is also a country that has issues with the female nipple being exposed in the media, and finds the human body and human sexuality something to be ashamed of and hidden from view. It all boils down to the puritanical beliefs that censor anything that it can get it's metaphorical hands on, making everything is censored all the more appealing as it's the forbidden fruit. Get over the hang-ups.
Coming back from the tangent, I don't think that Greeks solely should be the ones to spearhead a lobbying effort to lower the minimum drinking age. I think it should an effort by all 18-20yr olds that live in the US. Even if the 18-20yr olds in question don't go to college, they are still affected by this. If I'm not mistaken, the drinking age was once 18 but was upped to 21 in the past 40yrs or so (if anyone has the year, that would be great, thanks).
How many of us that are 18-20yrs old have had to tell our 21+ friends that no, we can't go chill with them at the bar, but thanks for the invite? I know that I personally deal with this all the time as most of my friends are 21+ and I don't turn 21 until October (so if anyone is in LV and wants to come celebrate with me at that time, just drop me a PM). I know others that get fake IDs and use them, and then are caught and have that on their records. As a criminal justice major, I won't do that to myself.
It's more annoying than anything because it's such an arbitrary age. Let's make it standardized at 18 - you can vote, you can buy tobacco, you can buy alcohol, and you can go fight (and die if it comes to it) for you country at 18. I made that argument to a police officer that I worked with on a project one day (who coincidently was a smoker) and he informed me that at 18, human lungs are already fully developed but it takes until 21 for the human liver and endocrine system to fully develop, so the US govt doesn't want to be responsible for hindering the full physical development of its youth. I think he was talking out of his ass and this all a bunch of bullshit. If any medical expert can please verify or negate this, that'd be great.
So no, I don't think Greeks should be the ones solely responsible for leading this campaign. I think it should be all 18-20yr olds and all those people who are older who remember what it is to be 18-20yrs old, and, pretty much, anyone who understands what it is to deal with such an arbitrary restriction.

I agree the legal age should be lowerd to 18.
While in most provinces and territories the legal drinking age is 19, Alberta and Quebec have set the legal drinking age to 18. (also, note that it is illegal to buy cigarettes here under the age of 19...and Ontario was the only province with a 5th year of highschool, yet many students cames from outside the province meaning many students were still underage.)
The way I see it is your either considered and adult or your not. You're not not partially an adult at 18, then another part at 19, and the finally at 21. There should be one age for everything. I would like to see it at 18, even though this doesn't apply to me anymore...I am legal everywhere. If not, then pick an age and stick to it. Meaning, you can't drink, buy cigarettes, vote, join the military, rent porn, enter into contract, etc, etc, until age X.

The drinking age was 21 in most areas after the end of Prohibition, but I think it was lowered to 18 or 19 in most states during the Vietnam War era. (I could easily be wrong on this, so I'd be grateful for any correction. I am pretty sure about the next part ...)
In the mid-1980s, the federal government threatened to withhold highway funds from any state that did not raise its drinking age to 21. States were allowed to grandfather-in people born before a certain date. As far as I am aware, there was never any rational reason given for this governmental blackmail.
I agree that this is an issue that should not be limited to Greeks, although Greeks can use their networking connections and political skills to boost it. This would be a great way to get the 18-21 population to vote, as they traditionally have low turnout.
The problem is that no politician is going to back this cause, because of the strong anti-alcohol lobby. The best idea would be to get it started in states with strong referendum provisions, such as California and Florida. Heck, Florida amended its constitution a few years ago to protect pregnant pigs, so the drinking age issue might be able to get on the ballot pretty easily. Once it gets on the ballot, then get out the vote among young people - Greeks, non-Greeks, collegians, workers, everyone - using MTV and other popular media.

wow, so i went to a school that did not enforce a 21 drinking age. meaning, security would not stop and card you, you were allowed to walk around campus with open containers, greek parties (yes i know about insurance) allowed people to carry in their own alcohol, and generally, unless you were being destructive, you could do what you wanted.

it was interesting to go to a college like that, and i loved it. we were treated as though we were adults, however, when not watched, there can still be a lot of issues with alcohol poisoning. drinking games, increased cases of sexual assult and general damage to property. I think the free nature of my campus maybe increased these risks slightly.

Also, NPC houses, are we not supposed to have dry houses? mine was fairly far from it, but nevertheless, we walked a fine line that could create huge risk if anything every happened. it is much easier to control women when most of them can't purchase, now if they all can, enforcement of that will still be an issue, our houses will not become 'wet' overnight. Our insurance may very well go up, if everyone were of drinking age...thats added risk...

finally, while i support it, there is the whole correlation of federal funding to highway systems. for example, WI, where i grew up and went to college, was forced to change to 21 or lose federal funding for highway systems, (we have wonderful roads up there) then IL an MN and Iowa were at 21 (right before we switched) and you had large numbers of kids crossing the state lines and then driving home. the drinking age is a state issue, and so because of that national change is hard. another problem is that 18-20 year old kids are a roatating age bracket, also with low voting turnouts, thus you have less intrest from politicans to push the issue, and people keep getting older, and thus, care less as they move farther away from the age bracket.

Yea it would be nice...but honestly, maybe greeks should work on community service, safe use alcohol programs and other 'good' works, than just changing the age...my 2cents

After a chapter installation I attended in the mid-80's, the sisters had a private party at their lodge complete with keg, which got busted by the campus police. National personnel were there and they pretty much laughed it off. I think it's hard for anyone younger to comprehend how much underage drinking was NOT a big deal until everyone started suing everyone.

I don't think drinking age has anything to do with insurance. That's like saying your fire insurance would go up since everyone is 18 and of legal age to smoke.

The Adult stigma seems to be a real problem. The Federal Govt. enacted a law and not long after that the speed law.

In other words, we as a Nation were blackmailed. Do this or else! Oh like what, oops Federal funds.

The Forbidden fruit is a very good analogy to be sure. Sorry boys and girls, you can vote, and you can join the Military and maybe die, but you cannot drink!

:mad:

As screwed up as Kansas is, they at one time had the best of both worlds. 18-21 could go to bars and drink 3.2 % beer. Socialize and meet friends. 21 + go to clubs and have mixed drinks.

There was more of the social scene then than gulping booze down now at partys.

At LXA Last General Assembly which I attended, there was an Amendment to disallow Tobacco products in the houses.

Needless to say, I was livid, as that is houw I paid to get there, I own a smoke shop:mad:

A Young man from Central Mo. U. got up with a dip in his mouth and Moved it be tabled Indefinitly. Passed with a voice vote. As big as Jeff was, I wanted to go over and Hug him!:)

We as Greeks seem to be pushed into a corner by Moderating our Morality. What is next, the kind of music?

I like this idea.

I don't know how it is in other states, but here in PA you can't even ENTER a bar if you're under 21, even if you don't drink any alcohol. It really puts a huge wall between legal and not.

I, too am old enough to remember the two tiered system in Ohio that was similar to the one he described in Kansas. It created some very interesting events that you would never see today (part of Greek Week were the "Pony Keg Killer" and the "Beer Olympics... I left off the names of the fraternities that sponsored these events so none of their current members flame this thread with statements about their current risk management policies-- remember this was 20+ years ago)

The issue when voters in Ohio raised the drinking age from 18 to 19 was high school students (and yes, I was going to bars while in HS) coming in hung over. Ohio was one of the last holdouts for the 21 law and it was enacted from pressure from the feds. It has created the "forbidden fruit" aura and I see more binge drinking now.

Greeks are NOT the ones who should spearhead any effort to change it. That would feed into every stereotype out there. It should come from 18-21 year olds demonstrating community activism and using the voting/ serving in the military factors. Above all, politicians cater to those who vote and contribute to their campaigns (either $$ or time). You want to change something-- vote and get involved! Make friends with your congressional representative!

It won't happen as long as Harvard and other places are publishing data about binge drinking, etc unless someone actually does a well designed study that compares pre/post academic perfomances/ death & injury from alcohol and PROVES that raising the drinking age to 21 has backfired.

Yeah, I was pretty bitter when I wrote that because I just went to a party on saturday and in my experience it is the younger people who go overboard with the drinking. I'm sure some of it has to do with experience, but I still don't think it's necessary for everyone to have a very negative drinking experience before they learn how to drink responsibly.

As for the American Greek - I didn't let him bias me. I know I have sisters all over the US who did not join for the drinking aspects. I just get annoyed when I see the stereotype in action.

We're going to agree and disagree -- but first some housekeeping:

I am in favor of lowering the drinking age -- at least for beer -- to 18. So is one of our chapter advisors who happens to also be the City Attorney in his small college town.

That doesn't really solve any problems, though, because as was the case when I was an undergraduate, if you can drink beer, you want to go the next step and get fake ID's or have older folks buy you wine and hard liquor. We did.

OK.

First, the changining of the drinking age in Ohio had nothing to do with high school students -- nor did it have anything to do with Vietnam and the draft. Ohio, like every other state in the nation, was forced to raise the drinking age by the Federal Government under the threat of losing U.S. highway funds if they didn't.

As for surveys, I'm pretty sure they were done some years ago, and I'm reasonably sure they proved that the teenage highway fatality count did decrease when the drinking age went up.

At our recent international conference, I attended a Risk Management seminar and, you guessed it, by far the largest number and amount of insurance claims for Delta Tau Delta were alcohol related. In fact, the number one cause of claims resulted from "falls from high places," and every single one of them was alcohol related. I can't remember any category mentioned that wasn't top heavy with alcohol caused incidents. Those included such things as sexual assault and fights.

I doubt than other fraternities would have statistics that varried greatly.

Because of the above, and the reputation that Greeks have, I also think we would be the wrong group to spearhead a drive to lower the drinking age. I think that our reputation, and unfortunately, our history in this area would be a huge detriment.

Sorry.

I think angelove was referring to when it went down to 18/19 in some states, not when it went up to 21.

As far as "OMG if we come out in favor of this, we'll look like lushes" - that's kinda like saying if you go to a gay rights rally, you're gay. I think James' point is that Greeks are already a unified (to some point) group and the networking to set up a movement is already there.

Greeks spearheading lowering Drinking ages, NOT!:( :o

We already have a stigma of Drinking, having wild parties, etc. Not what we really do for Betterment, that is shunted to the rear of the bus so to speak.

What it takes is people like us showing no Greek Affiliation doing this with our Duly Elected Morons.:) We, The Electorits.

They understand one thing, Money that is coming into Federal and maybe State Coffers.

But, as DA said, We Need to clean our own Problems up before this happens.:(

http://www.reconsider.org/issues/pub...nking_Ages.htm


Examples of Legal Drinking Ages Around the World

United States: 21

Great Britain: Minimum age for purchasing alcohol is 18, although those who are 16 or 17 can purchase beer or cider with a meal.

France: 16.

Spain: 16.

Germany: 16 for beer and wine, and 18 for spirits.

Canada: 19 in much of the country, 18 in Alberta, Manitoba and Quebec.

Australia: 18.

Japan: 20.

South Africa: 18.

Malaysia: 18.

Ukraine: 18.

Russia: 18.

South Korea: 19.

I took a quick look and according to the Ohio Insurance Institute for Public Safety, alcohol related accidents involving people from 15 to 20 years old dropped by 50% during the ten years following the raising of the drinking age in Ohio.

I think this would require a change in society's attitude before a lowering of age limits. Sure some other countries have 18 drinking limit, but not all of them deal with it well.

Quebec has a limit of 18, but when I was working there, I know I had 14 and 15 yr old students who went to the bars. I don't mind if kids drink that young - but it should be at home with their family.

I think in most of our society alcohol does seem to mix often with dangerous situations such as driving and unsafe sex(or rape). I don't expect to ever see the elimination of the correlation between alcohol and bad situations like that, but if young people can't drink somewhat responsibly (yet illegally), why should we trust them any more just because they'd be of legal age?

(yes I understand that not only young people are drunk drivers, but again it is the young people that seem to make the news more often, isn't it?[and i don't think that's purely media spin])

I still remember one thing from alcohol awareness week my freshmen year: if you're drinking just to get drunk, that's not a good reason to drink (and can actually be a sign of alcoholism).

Some European statistics about drinking related issues

here is an excerpt:

Overall alcohol-related deaths among 15- to 29-year-olds will be presented in four main groups of countries by WHO officials. Those for Britain, EU partners and other more developed European states, suggest one in eight male and one in 12 female deaths are drink-related. But in a group including Russia, Ukraine, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, the drink-related toll is one in three male and one in eight female deaths - across the whole of Europe, it is one in four male deaths in the age group.


Sounds like they are having some pretty serious problems with alcohol in those countries.

Dee

Okay, here's another old guy's perspective. Back in 1974, Illinois voted to allow 19 & 20-year-olds the right to drink beer and wine. That meant that you couldn't partake of the "hard stuff" until you were 21.

This didn't stop us in northern IL from crossing the border and enjoying libations in the land of cheese, Wisconsin. The barkeeps were "supposed" to make us wait until we were 19, but that was never enforced much (boy, I remember a walkout to Whitewater...).

This little social experiment lasted all of two years because the policies weren't strictly enforced ("Hey, if they're in my bar I'll serve 'em whatever they want."). Having worked as a bar bouncer back in those halcyon days, I can vouch for the fact that there were plenty of under-18's with fake ID's.

I don't recall the exact numbers, but a higher percentage of Illinois 19 & 20-year-olds died in car accidents during the two-year period than in previous years. That's why it switched back to 21 for everything in Illinois in 1976.

Of course, by that time I had already turned 21, so it didn't affect me as much as some of my younger brothers. The bottom line is this: if you're looking for a scapegoat, undergrads, ask your parents. We screwed it up, and the federal crackdown will keep things this way.

Interfraternally,
Bill F.

I have a problem with these stats for one reason really. Drinking and driving laws of yesterday are nothing like what they are today. My stepfather is a police officer (now retired) and he always talks about the major changes in this area. He has often said it was not uncommon for police officers to let drunk drivers off with a warning. I don't think you'd ever see such a thing today.

ETA**

I just found this case study: Link

It states that between 1982-1986 the number of alcohol-related traffic deaths dropped by only 4% while those deaths among those between the ages of 18-21 dropped 14%.

While after 1986 alcohol-related traffic deaths among those "under 21" (this could consider people as young as 16 because it doesn't define under 21 as between 18-21) declined 43%. But it doesn't give the percentage increase or decrease for the general population. I'll try to find some different stats but I feel there could have been a trade-off with the age ranges...

You may be right, however there are a couple of other mitigating issues that, if memory serves, might taint the 1980's death rates.

But, memory may not serve correctly, so take it for what it's worth.

Wasn't that about the time that the speed limit was 55, and safety features (bumpers, airbags, etc) became mandatory. We also didn't have mandatory seat belt laws back in the "Drink 18" times in Ohio.

By the way, regarding another post above, I don't recall the drinking age ever being 19 in Ohio. But, I've been wrong before. Maybe that was after we left the state (around 1974) and were living elsewhere.

Since I used Ohio as an example and people seem to have honed in on statistics of the Buckeye state, I'll explain where I got my facts. I lived in Toledo. I turned 18 when you could get 'low beer', although just over the line in Michigan you could get anything you wanted. That changed while I was in college, and Michigan became a 21-state (sort of changed directions of the profitable carry-outs). Ohio increased the drinking age to 19 while I was a chapter officer so yes, I do remember it, and yes, the campaign ads (well, we all know how "true" those are) depicted high school students at football games drunk (as if having the legal age being 18 really promoted that) and taking the SAT hung over. That change was taken to the voters and they grandfathered in those who were caught in the middle. The change to 21 came after I graduated and was because of threats to take away highway funds at the federal level. At that point they didn't grandfather in the 19-20 year olds. Can you imagine? You're "legal for a month and then have to wait two years.... Course, living in Toledo, we'd solve that by going up to Windsor (just a quick 45 minutes up the highway).

You are correct in saying that the laws and attitudes have changed. Enough of my friends got DWIs in college and got them dismissed taking the same kind of defensive driving that you now take for speeding tickets. That's why I think this would be a tough sell. Right now we're comparing apples and oranges. Regardless, GLOs should not take up this issue. While we have the organization and manpower to take on big issues, it would be taken the wrong way by too many people and would never get past any committee.

I don't know if we are going to survive in a recongizable way if we don't. We already have that reputation for drinking whether deserved or not.

It would be fairly easy to spin the campaign as one that just represents our constituency.

I think it is generally understood that sororities have been spared to a significant degree some of the consequences, because generally fraternities will provide the place, and the alcohol. Therefore we mostly assume the blame.

I can understand the sorority position on this because as long as this status quo continues you will be sheltered behind the gradually shrinking shield of the fraternities.

Until one day we are gone. Or completely emasculated.

I was looking in the Risk Management section of our website for some information for another thread and stumbled across this:

DELTA TAU DELTA FRATERNITY

5 YEAR CLAIM HISTORY 1/1/91 to 1/1/96


ALCOHOL RELATED LOSSES AS % OF TOTAL LOSSES



Non-Alcoholic Related Losses

6%



Alcohol Related Losses

94%

Re: Sholuld Greeks Speahead a movement to reduce the drinking age to 18?
 

I'm not so sure I agree. First of all, the premise of the argument seems to be "if they are breaking the law anyway, why don't we change the law to where what they currently do is not considered in violation" or something similar.

That is not the way to address an epidemic problem on our campuses. To me, it seems to admit defeat without having the courage to stand up for what is right.

I don't recall fraternities being founded as a "refuge" from drinking laws. Far from it.

Not only that, but, we would also be courting financial disaster in a place you may not be aware of. Why did states that didn't have 21 year drinking laws enact them in the mid to late 80's? To not lose out on federal highway funds to maintain roads and bridges. Whether or not you agree with the strongarm tactics that forced many states to do this (as I disagree with), it is what will happen.

Underage drinking still accounts for too high a statistical percentage in DUI deaths to make lowering the age seem like a noble goal of any sort. It seems more of an easy out than anything else.

Even if the statistics do show that alcohol related losses are a large part of insurance claims, and that underage drinkers are a large proportion of DUIs and alcohol related deaths/injuries, shouldn't we still explore the "forbidden fruit" aspects of the drinking age? Are college students bingeing because they can't go into a restaurant and have a drink with dinner like a "respectable adult"? Maybe if we remove the novelty and the forbidden nature of alcohol, it won't be such a big deal. Like when you're a kid and your parents won't let you watch a certain TV station - but every time they leave the house, you watch it all you can. It's sort of a chicken and egg situation - do we raise the drinking age because people under 21 drink too much, or do people under 21 drink too much because they're not legal?

Anyone have any statistics from before the drinking age was raised?

I think a lot of studies have linked the disappearance of "in loco parentis" as one of the major contributing factors to binge drinking...but I will defer to Delt Alum on that one - he's talked on that point before.

But your first claim doesn't make sense...even though a lot of deaths, injuries, and other risk management risks are related to alcohol, you'd STILL advocate making the consumption easier for minors?

You also asked if anyone has that stats before the age was raised...when the federal government threatened to withhold matching highway funds, they did so precisely because at that time, as well as today, too many under-21 aged DUI accidents were injuring and killing people. While I firmly believe this should have been up to each individual state to determine, the federal government forced the issue with the carrot and stick approach. To revert back to the old under-21 laws would make the problem even worse.

It's not a culture issue, it's not a "boys will be boys" issue. It's a safety issue.

Now, am I naive to believe that keeping the law as it is will simply make binging and it's associated costs go away? Of course not. However, what I would recommend is more personal responsibility and accountability into their behavior, and the example each individual sets. Isn't that what fraternities, in many cases, were founded to help foster?

Facts and figures can be brought up every day to point out certain % and figures.

Not that We on GC can solve the problems,Yes, we have all brought up many facts and figures, but I think it boils down to the Egg and The Chicken or the Forbidden Fruit.

Parental inclusion cannot be denied of coure. Not point to fingers, but the kids of today are told no and will do it anyway. I always did and knew I would suffer the results. Beleive me, sometimes harsh.:eek:

It seems that We as Greeks and Our Organizations can try to train as much as we want, but to what end? We are paying for it now of course.

Do we go against some of the Mores' of society? Do We as Adults tell and not educate, does it help?


I wish I had a true answer.

But Greek Organizations trying to put preasure for Alcohol Changes, it is still a resounding no. We have enough problems.

Can We lead by example? Well, no, I really dont think so for the short term.

As much as I feel the nation would benefit from lowering the drinking age, I feel the Greek Community would receive negative PR for such a campaign.

Despite overwhelming attempts to register 18-24 year olds to vote, this age group turns out in underwhelming numbers at the polls. As a result, legislation and lobbying for the benefit of this age group is under-represented.

I understand the desire to lower risk management issues, and I think it would be smart to lower the drinking age (if you can vote at age 18 and buy a pack of cigarettes; why not a beer?), but I feel that if Greeks supported an effort to get America's Youth VOTING it would be seen as a very positive motion.

I think that drinking is fine as long as it's done moderately and you don't have a huge risk management scenario on your hand.

I think that Greeks need to identify their "risk" chapters and decide whether they should be there.

I think that Greeks should actually try and take the spotlight off of themselves and put it onto university administrations. Let them deal with the problems. If this is that deep rooted into university cultures then this is not something we have the time or the resources to tackle.

And when the universities are able to offer safer environments, then we should return to those former "risk" schools.

-Rudey

That is a tremendously inaccurate and misleading statement. Chapters that want to behave like "animal houses" have seen an increasingly strained relationship. Chapters that want live up their values and ideals have seen an increasing amount of support from their HQs. The latter has become the dominant type of chapter in many GLOs.

As far as James original post, as much as I like James, the idea is terrible. If GLOs were to advocate a reduction in the drinking age, it would reinforce negative stereotypes. It would also necesitate a cultural change that would cause a regression in current fraternity programming and values.

I think the 21 YO drinking age is stupid, but if its going to be challanged, it needs to be challenged without the involvement of GLOs.

I knew someone would take that the wrong way, so let me rephrase. A lot of times, people are afraid to go to advisors or national HQ with issues because they're afraid it'll get turned around and used as a way to punish the chapter - even if that chapter isn't doing anything wrong. I can't tell my advisor about ONE pledge that goes out with her non-sorority friends and drinks too much, because the whole chapter will be under the microscope for drinking. I can't tell them about the sister who keeps falling asleep in class, because I'll be accused of overprogramming and stressing out the sisterhood. I can't tell them about the pledge who cries in her room every day, for reasons she has yet to tell us, because I'll be accused of hazing her.

And the advisors and HQs don't want to do this, I'm sure, but they hear so much about the costs of RM that rather than do a thorough investigation it's easier to punish the chapter and cover their butts. That's what I meant.

If you have a great relationship with your HQ and advisors and can tell them everything, that's wonderful - but I think to say that any chapter that doesn't isn't living up to its "values and ideals" is an outright lie.

We are one of the few nations with such a high drinking age. Why? You can join the military, fight for your country and possibly die for your country but you can't have a drink? Good point but guess what? I hope we never see the drinking age decreased. Too many immature kids here in the U.S.

On the other hand, if we all had GLO's that made the chapters become dry on some arbitrary day (say, 9/1/04), I imagine it would have an effect on recruitment. Sadly, it would probably be a downward slide.

Since I was seeking an organization to join 30 years ago, I would've sought out a fraternity anyway. In other words, booze wasn't the deciding factor for my joining--I could've stayed in the dorms and gotten sloshed, for what that's worth.

Universally creating dry organizations would also send a major message to the general public that only sees us as nothing more than living examples of "Animal House"/"Old School".

Later-
BF

Ha, one has to be from the Kansas Area to Remember Carry Nation. A diminitive @ 5' 4" lady with a hatchet who went into Kansas Saloons and beat the hell out of the Bars with her little AXE!. Hated Demon Rum (ALL BOOZE).

Nicklc24, I and others agree with you whole heartedly on that issue.

As I mentioned as did some others, The Chicken and Egg, Forbidden Fruit. Cant , will and going to.

The Great American Experiment as the Europeans called Phroabition in the USA which mad Millions for Alphonse Capone/Broughphrom Family in Canada and The Kennedy Clan from Scotland.. Yes JFK Family clan. White Horse Scotch to be just one of them.

Die, for your Country, Vote for Our Leaders, but dont drink Booze!

Socializing is a very big part of American/Canadian life style, cut out two things, Alcohol and Tobacco which have some of the highest taxes, where does that money come from?

What were the first bigest cash and products of this Country any way? Da, Yep You got it. !!!

Let us bite the hand that feeds us, put me out of business and feed on the pitence of Federal Wlfare!:rolleyes:

boz, sometimes you are so droll about things, not sure how to take you. Thank god Mama took Pics!:)

Name one GLO that has distrust and poor communications as part of its "values and ideals."