disaffiliated and questions
 

hi i am new here, but have a question i was hoping you guys (and girls) could answer

i transfered to a new school and immediately rush started i went in blindly and pledged a fraternity. a number of things happened during pledging that i didn't agree with or like, but each time i was convinced to stick it out. however the week after getting intiated i couldn't take it any longer and disaffiliated.

now the thing is that was last fall, and now as fall is approaching again, and i have a better gauge on things, i want to rush again.

i have a letter from the fraternity i joined saying i am disaffiliated and all of that

if i rush again what are the chances on getting a bid do you guys think, what would you think if a rushee came through and explained this to you? i have friends in all three of the fraternities i am looking at (sae, sigep, and kappa sigma) and they have all encouraged me to rush but does anyone know the overal policies of these mentioned fraternities regarding a situation such as mine?

no self respecting Fraternity would ever pledge or initiate a man who has joined and abandoned his previous Order.

Generally, once you are initiated into a fraternity, you may not become a member of another. Even if you have a letter from the previous fraternity stating that you are no longer a member, the constitution and bylaws of many (but not all) fraternities prohibit it.

Back when I was an undergrad years ago I pledged one fraternity when they were colonizing; two weeks before the founding father class was to go through initiation I was put up before the colony's judicial board (for a stupid and youthful indiscretion that I will not discuss here) and unceremoniously kicked out two weeks before I was to be initiated. Devastated? You bet your ass I was.

Luckily, spring formal rush started the following week. I went into it hoping to get a bid; had I not succeded, I would have probably written off the greek system altogether.

Some of the fraternities wouldn't even give me the time of day once I told them I had depledged from (XYZ) fraternity, others were kind of cool about it, though I pretty much knew I would have had a snowball's chance in hell of getting a bid, and a couple of other fraternities seriously considered offering me a bid. I found my home at Alpha Sigma Phi and have never been disappointed.

I think it can be more complicated than that. If I were active and you were looking to rush my chapter, my vote would hinge a lot on why you no longer wanted to be affiliated with your previous organization.

In other words, I'd be interested in whose fault it was that you're no longer a member of that chapter and why.

It's times like these that I'm glad that NPC rules are more cut and dry than their male counterparts.

Obviously I'm not a guy, but from what has been said on GC, you need a letter from the Fraternity acknowledging your disaffiliation (which you've already got). Whether or not these orgs on your campus gives you a chance, I don't know because attitudes regarding your situation are very much similar to that of steve1869's response.

Still, I've heard of stories from guys who ended up finding their homes in their 2nd attempt at brotherhood, so happy endings do occur sometimes.

I can understand where you're coming from, but there are the rare occasions where you might find a quality person who had made a mistake.

If someone wanted to join my fraternity and concealed the fact that he was active and we found out about it, this guy's pin would be yanked and he'd be kicked out so fast he wouldn't have time to even catch his breath.

The single-membership clause in many fraternities and sororities is designed to prevent divided loyalties. My fraternity was originally founded as a sophomore class society at Yale; in those days it was not unusual for one to belong to four different fraternities in four years of college at Yale.

Chosing your Fraternal organization is a very important decision that should take time and consideration. If you had doubts while you pledged, it is your fault for not quitting before you were initiated. There was obviously something that attracted you to the original Fraternity. I just think it shows lack of character and commitment(two cornerstones of all Fraternities) to chose an organization, continue to pledge until you are initiated, then desert the fraternity that you were bound to by Oath.

steve

If you have initiated with another Fraternity, disaffiliating doesn't matter. If the chapter really believes in you, they can get permission from the proper people - Province Archon (president) and possibly the Supreme Council (basically the board of directors).

It's happened before, so there is precedent. However, it will require some work. It's unfortunate that you had a bad fraternity experience... props to you for getting back on the horse and recognizing that not every chapter is that way. I would challenge you to stand on your convictions if anything happens to you in your new fraternity that you disagree with. Take it up with the chapter president... lay out your expectations before accepting a bid and get a verbal commitment that there is zero hazing in the chapter. If you get a line like "it's nothing you can't handle" or "we all made it through", dig a little deeper and ask what will happen. If you disagree with it, either move on or bring it up with the proper people (Greek Advisor comes to mind).

Hazing is a serious problem that will be the end of Fraternity. There needs to be good dialog and more students like you willing to stand up against a hazing chapter. Good luck to you!

You seem to believe that an oath is unconditional. The organization also has obligations to its members -- to provide an opportunity for good brotherhood, to be safe, etc.

If the organization fails on what is promised and the member chooses to gain dismissal through the correct channels, then he is actually honoring his oath in many cases. As I said before, it's not as cut and dry as it seems.

And as I said before -- be open with the reason that you disaffiliated. When the guys in the chapters you are looking at are considering a bid, your reasons will play a big role. Also, don't be surprised if you find yourself without a bid. There are plenty of folks like steve1869 who really don't care why you went your own way.

Best of luck.

I agree with ktsnake be open, but also be very careful that your openness doesn't turn into slander (or whatever that word I'm searching for is.) It helps to tell the story, but it doesn't help to only dwell. Good Luck

No doubt!! :)

By the same token, I find it nice that our organizations trust us enough to exercise our ability to decide these types of issues for ourselves. Free will is a good thing that usually yields good results -- either we make a good decision or learn from our mistake.

If there are too many rules sheltering you from making mistakes, you'll never benefit from the experience of having screwed up.

When we were a colony, we screwed up a lot. I have to tell you that our experience from those screw ups was 10 times as valuable as what we would have had if we were just along for the ride.

-- So there are two sides to that coin is all I'm saying ;)

I agree with you, ktsnake, the IFC system makes more sense to me. I think a vow, like a marriage vow, is a two-way street. If you are abused or abandoned by the person or people you vowed loyalty to, well, I think you can relinquish your obligations. And I wouldn't hold it against someone that that happened to them; I certainly wouldn't assume anything negative about their character without knowing the whole story. Not all "divorces" reflect disloyalty or haste on the part of the divorcee.

It has been brought up several times on other threads.

if a Person who has disaffiliated and have been given a disspensation as it were, per say may and can join another Greek Organization.

While it is not Common, it can happen.

If I remeber, there was a Whole Chapter who was looking to do this.

Yes, there are many times that It Just Doesnt Work.

I know, I have Been There! Started a Local, not Initiated by the Other Greek Organization.


I am still a Proud Member of another Greek Organization!
:D

My Greek Organization, LXA!:D

No self respecting Fraternity would abandon its values and principles, and then treat its pledges like sub-humans.

The best way to get a sure-fire answer is to speak to the office of Greek Life at your university. The Greek Director/Coordinator can assist you with this situation and let you know what your options are.

Co-sign.

And as for the Greek Advisor, don't bother. They don't have as much knowledge about how things work with individual NIC groups (because we are fairly different in each case in what kind of guys we'll take).

The 100 man chapter on your campus that wins everything may actually bid you while the 15-man chapter will tell you no. It'll boggle the mind. The best thing to do is just be honest about your past but do not dwell on it.

I think in the end, you'll come away with at least one bid.

I feel like we're raking the original poster's original fraternity over the coals without knowing both sides of the story.

He never said he was hazed, just that "things happened during pledging." That could mean he saw a brother treat a girl in a way he didn't like...that his grades went in the toilet...that they gave a bid to a gay man and it upset him. Who the heck knows? All we have is his very ambiguous post.

I'm inclined to agree with Steve - if you had doubts, OVER AND OVER AGAIN, that should have been a sign that you shouldn't have initiated. You could have asked to be held over or dropped pledging. That's what a pledge period is FOR - so you and the organization can evaluate each other more deeply than you did in rush before you make that lifetime commitment to the org, and they to you.

I'm sure all of us can find ways that our chapter or our org overall let us down, at one time or another. That doesn't mean we should all quit and join another one.

We're arguing hypotheticals. I'm saying that in most cases, I would be VERY skeptical, but in some cases it could be justified.

I'm raking a hypothical chapter over the coals. Without knowing anything about his situation, I'm saying that there are situations where formally resigning in my eyes is justified. If it's done in an honorable way and for honorable reasons, I have no problem with it.

Agreed - if a chapter beats the crap out of you, they're not holding up their end of the bargain. I just didn't like the fact that some of us seemed to be telling this guy that he was entirely in the right without knowing the whole situation. Half the people were discussing hypothetically, half were addressing the actual human's question.

I have to say that from a loyalty standpoint, many (if not all) of the fraternities will question you- why did you leave? Why did you think it would get better? Also, you joined the organization for a reason. I honestly don't think you gave it much of a chance if you were only 2 weeks active and quit. Good luck trying, though.

Unfortunately, he hasn't disclosed why he left. At this point, I can only assume that whatever reason he left was good enough for him.

I cannot predict whether it will be good enough for the men that must accept him into their chapter though. But that's all that matters.

I've always been of the mind that there are really 3 sides to every story -- yours, theirs, and the truth that lies somewhere in the middle. I don't know the facts of why you wanted to go (and chose not to) and why you finally did after initiation, but it remains that both parties were failed.

If the original poster does not admit to any new organization, honestly, that they had some fault in their own unhappiness (which was accomplished at least by not depledging when first unhappy), I would think that the brothers would not feel that the prospective has the fraternity's best at heart. I have a hard time believing everything was the GLO's fault. That doubt would be more than enough to make me think that this person would not take my letters, and all that they stand for, seriously and sincerely.

I wish you luck in finding happiness, greek or otherwise.

reasons
 

i thank everyone who gave me some constructive input, and as for my reasons i don't want to go into them here but suffice to say we were hazed. although i should have dropped earlier, i felt i would have been screwing over my friends who had joined with me. in the end it just wasn't for me, the guys weren't the kind of people that i liked/could even deal with. i just hope that i can get a fair shot this fall.

Re: reasons
 

A simple explanation like that is enough to make me understand that your intentions are honorable. It is tough to quit in the middle of hazing. You have a bond with the guys that you're going through it with and it is really hard to just leave them to fend for themselves.

With what you said, you'd have my vote for a bid.

Couldn't guarantee the votes of the rest of my chapter though.

Granted, we don't know the circumstances of his resignation. I do find it unlikely that a fraternity would accept his resignation, and offer documentation of such, over a minor incident. I could be wrong, but I think that there was something very serious that happened.

Russ, I think you are very right on your point and what ktsnake said.

There seems to be more of a reason than being explained to us on a public forum. Actually as it should be, no Names mentioned.

There seems to be a real problem here that some could help with in private.

I am sure if allmixedup311 would PM any of us off the boards, there are many who would try to be of assistance!

I think you might still have a shot at joining another chapter, but don't be surprised if guys are leary of giving you a bid. You might have a better chance if the guys get to know you better and know your intentions and sincere desire to belong. Formal rush may not work in your favor though, due to the limited amount of time to really get to know the chapter. Do you already know some of the guys in any other chapters you might be interested in? If so, that could help a lot.

If its a different school, why even tell them you belonged somewhere else? You have your letter of severance if it ever comes up.

I'm confused....

I've never really thought about the fact that I don't really know all the of the IFC rules regarding depledging/dissafiliated/etc. and joining another house later.

With PNC sororities, you can pledge one house, and as long as you 'depledge' before initiation, you have to wait one calendar year and then you can join another house. This is a Panhellenic rule to protect the member sororities. The key here is that you've never been initiated into one organization, therefore knowing all their secrets, and then initiate into another.

I know plenty of people on my campus, both men and women, who had pledged another house, but left before initiation and then joined (and stuck with) another house. There's not much stigma against those who've left one organization and want to rush again: usually it's just understood that they found their former house didn't match as well as they thought.

Sometimes people climb the ladder when they trade in one house for another, sometimes they are genuinely looking for a better fit. One of the girls in my house pledged another organization freshman year, but then depledged because it lacked the kind of sisterhood she wanted. She's one of the coolest, sweetest girls I know, and we were happy to bid her.


Anyway... so is the fraternity system less cut-and-dry? It seems odd to me that IFC would allow someone to initiate and know all the 'secrets' of more than one house.

Could someone clarify the initiation thing?

He posted, that He Initiated and then left.

While a presedent has been set at different times, it is not a normal thing to do.

Once you as an individual are Inititated then, you will not be allowed to Affiliate with an NIC Member Greek Organization with out the Written Authoriztiuon from the Grand High Ruling Directors not the Local Chapter.

It is a tough call either way.

Should This Person be allowed to accede to another Greek Organizationa and why did He do it? What was the reason that He did after finding out the Secrets of The First Said Organizatin.

Now, that to me becomes the question?

It's not really a question for us. It's a question that the gentlemen in the chapters he is interterested in now will have to answer.

And FIJI -- the NIC is not really a governing organization, it's more of an advocacy organization that sometimes has "agreed to" rules that all of our member groups can either follow or not at their leisure. It's kind of a confederacy of organizations.

And their advocacy has been kind of pathetic in the past several years.

Thanks, UCLAblonde! I'm confused, too, so I'm happy to see I'm not the only one. :)

I think I understand that the gentleman in question went through initiation and then realized that he would not be happy as a member of that chapter. But that doesn't mean that his entire fraternity... worldwide... is bad.

I am surprised that a full fledged member can decide that he doesn't like his fraternity's chapter and go become a member of an entirely different fraternity. Now he knows the inner workings of two different groups.

I don't really think you can compare it to a marriage that has turned abusive. In this case, the spouse isn't the chapter... but the fraternity. Surely the entire fraternity isn't abusive?

I feel for the guy who finds his chapter isn't a good fit and then is stuck without an active college experience and letters that don't mean anything to him.

Best wishes, Allmixedup.

When dealing with the here and now, we have to talk about the chapter, not the national organization. His choices in most cases include disaffiliation (which he chose), transferring to another school and not affiliating, or to just stop paying dues and showing up -- then waiting to see what happens.

The NIC is VERY different from the NPC.

And as I have said before, there's a good chance that there will be enough members at the places he wants to go who don't like what he's doing either -- there's a good chance he won't even get a bid because of his history.

I don't think my chapter would give him a bid to tell you the truth. The President that I served as Vice Pres (that's Lieutenant Commander in Sigma Nu talk) actually had depledged ATO because of things I won't mention here -- and I only mention it was ATO because an ATO reading that would find it amusing. He turned out to be a huge contributor to our house.

First, as ktsnake says, the NIC (IFCs are campus councils, NIC is the international council) is not a governing body. It is an advocacy/mutual support organization.

When a fraternity joins the NIC, it does agree to some rules. One of these is that an NIC fraternity will not knowingly initiate a man who has previously been initiated by another NIC fraternity. But NIC policies allow one exception to this rule: one NIC fraternity can initiate someone who was once initiated by another NIC fraternity if the national HQ of the first fraternity informs the national HQ of the second fraternity, in writing, that the guy in question is no longer a member of the first fraternity.

That's NIC policy. Some NIC member fraternities have their own stricter policies -- they will not knowingly initiate a man previously initiated by another fraternity period, even if the man is no longer a member of the first fraternity and has the letter to prove it. In other words, these NIC fraternities, by their own governing documents, foreclose the possibility of taking advantage of the exception allowed by the NIC.

It must all even out, ktsnake. I knew a guy who depledged Sigma Chi and became an ATO. :cool:

Hey Ktsnake, I do find it amusing. ;)

You've got some of the coolest ATO/Sigma Nu stories. I wish I knew more Sigma Nu's.

Jason

Yah.. when active, I always wanted to do a whitefoot/blackfoot thing.. but it never came to fruition. I won't go into detail as to why, but suffice to say it didn't happen.

There are quite a few things I could share about ATO - SN relations in the area, but nothing that would be appropriate to print in a public forum if you catch my drift ;)