Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson
 

It seems that there are evidence that Charles Taylor, the ex-Liberian strongman, has funded through blood diamond Al-Qaeda. It is ironic that Pat Robertson complained that Charles Taylor was ousted to undermine "a Christian, Baptist president to bring in Muslim rebels.”

He even went on further to announced that Charles Taylor was democratically elected. Yeah, I'm sure Suharto was also democratically elected in a fair and open election. I'm sure the 700 Club $8 million investment in Liberian Gold Mine put his moral aptitude at ease.

Re: Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson
 

Pat Robertson is a scumbag. I can't believe anyone still thinks his views are relevant or driven by anything besides personal greed. He has found a great niche market with Bible thumpers where he can do things that smack of open corruption like this, and not be questioned by his base (because they're incredibly gullible).

People like him, Jimmy Swaggart, etc. give religious people a bad name.

I so fondly remember when Pat and Jerry said that 9/11 was the fault of us sinners; the ones whove had the abortions, homosexuals, adulterers. :rolleyes:

Hmm...well in the eyes of Bin Laden...that is true! He doesn't refer to us as infidels for nothing!

KTSnake, why do you think he still have so much clout over so many people? I think him and OBL are all made from the same cloth. Just their technique are different. They are both hate driven and are dividers of peoples. They are both also hypocrite.

I think him and OBL are different. Robertson, from what I can tell is most driven by greed, self interest, etc. Hate is what he sells. People buy what he's selling because he wraps it up in pretty religious clothing.

From OBL's lifestyle, I can only conclude that he thinks he's fighting the good fight. I can think of no rationale reason for a man of his wealth who needs dialysis to be living out of caves when he could be enjoying air conditioning, sex slaves, etc. in Saudi Arabia. Yes, he's driven by hate, mostly for Western culture. He, like Robertson is trying to sell something, but not for money. His price is blood -- although his technique is similar.

That's my assessment of the two. I honestly think that Robertson is vastly more of a hypocrite than OBL.

Pat Robertson...oh yeah. He lives at the beach and prays for Supreme Court justices to get cancer, tells everyone they're going to hell, and supports terrorist dictators. It's a good thing the ICC is totally powerless, otherwise he'd be gone like Hoffa.

No its not true. That shows a lack of understanding for the specifics of the situation.

Unfortunately for your argument, thats not why Pat Robertson claimed we were attacked. Pat claimed that it was God's wrath that brought 9/11 on us becasue of abortions, homosexuals and adulterers. Basically, to simplify it, PR claimed that God was being vengeful and allowed the attack to happen becasue of the adulterers, homosexuals and abortionists. (basically, God thought we deserved it.) (BTW, he clearly dosent worship the same God I do.) Robertson didnt make your claim, which might have been more logical on the surface, that OBL was mad at us becasue of those reasons.

But again, upon further research, OBL dosent claim to hate the US becasue of those reasons listed. He claims to be anti western becasue of our military presence in the mid-east, specifically our bases in Saudi Arabia, which is considered to be the home of the holiest sites in all Islam. He believes its a sin against Islam to allow non-muslims on such sacred soil. Secondarily, and much more recently he seems to be siding with the palistenians in their struggle for soviergnty, and opposing the US on its (imho STUPID) unwaivering support for Isreal.

Hope this clears that right up for you.

Nice post, lifesaver.

Re: Re: Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson
 

I disagree. I think that he is a douchebag.

Re: Re: Re: Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson
 

How about a comprimise?

He is the scum in the douchebag.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Charles Taylor and Pat Robertson
 

All I want to know is who the hell didn't throw away that bag! :)

WOW. you put a lot of time in your post to disseminate incorrect information LOL. If you really think the radical muslims don't dislike us in part because of our MTV culture, you're either misinformed or sadly mistaken. Do your research before you try to contradict me ;)

IS this clear lifesaver?
 

There's no one reason they hate us. There are several. Hope this clears that right up for you too.

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/m...modload&sid=83

The more extreme elements detest McDonald's for capturing the gastronomical enthusiasm of their children. They loath MTV for driving their teenagers toward the impure thoughts of sex and individualism and away from the thoughts of the Koran and Allah. They resent the Christian missionaries from Kansas for converting wavering believers into admires of Jesus Christ. They curse the U.S. military troops stationed in their countries for illuminating their impotency. They attack giant multinational corporations headquarted in the towers of New York for selling material dreams that impoverished Muslims cannot afford and that only end up manufacturing frustration.

http://www.probe.org/docs/rad-muslims.html
Osama Bin Ladin calls on Muslims to "obey God’s command to kill the Americans and plunder their possessions...to kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military...." He and his sympathizers want to eliminate Western influence and restore their version of Islam to the world.
He especially deplored clergy-sanctioned dances at church recreation halls. When the ministers lowered the lights, the dances became hot. Qutb’s PG description: “The dance is inflamed by the notes of the gramophone...the dance-hall becomes a whirl of heels and thighs, arms enfold hips, lips and breasts meet, and the air is full of lust." He cited the famous Kinsey Reports as evidence of American sexual debauchery.

http://www.ericchrist.com/weekly_mus...muse091601.htm
These radicals do not believe in freedom. The people subject to their rule are forced to abide by strict standards of dress and behavior. Deviants are brutally punished. News and events from the outside world are censored and filtered through the authorities, which then disseminate them to their people with a pro-Islam, anti-Western slant.

In short, they oppose and despise everything we Americans hold dear. They hate us for who we are. The only good American is a dead American.

NOW i sit and wait for someone to say that anyone can post anything to prove their point. My only point here is to show that the long narrative that lifesaver gave to dispute me is only one part of the equation. our troops could pull out, and they would still want us DEAD.

When did he say that the MTV culture *wasn't* a reason? He is explaining their stance from a political point of view, not cultural. Everything lifesaver said was correct. It wasn't a comprehensive explanation of "Why OBL hates America" That would take volumes.

Yes OBL have complained about the Western culture. However, that complain have been about how it is corrupting the Islamic world. Al-Qaeda main concern has always been about the "Islamic world." All their attack has been againts those whom they think has harm the Islamic world. Their ultimate goal is to revert back to the Calipth form of system within the Islamic world.

Some have suggested that after they get done with that, then they will expand to forcefully convert other civilization into becomming Muslim. I don't know how accurate that theory is.

It wouldn't really be consistant with their beliefs to do that. Part of their critique of the US is that we are imperialist. If they try to start expanding their empire, they'll be inconsistant.

So far, they've been fairly consistant in keeping to the goals of their organization.

That being said, I think that they should be eradicated by whatever means necessary.

They aren't trying to expand their empire (the Islamic world) just take back power from what they view as imperialist and colonial powers (the West). Instead of looking within and seeing their problems realistically, they blame the West. 50 years ago, this may have been a viable excuse, but there's no reason that they can't reform and bring about a better life for their people now.

I agree that eliminating the terrorist groups would be a good start, but I don't see that happening (completely) in my lifetime. There's always nuts every where you go.

Do you really believe that they don't want to expand their "empire?" They first need to get control of the Islamic world. If they did that, I believe that they would just keep going.

The ideology of Islam can be easily interpreted to support the militant expansion of the religion, and Al Qaeda is doesn't have to stretch their interpretation of Islam all that much to do just that.

you're trying really hard to disagree with me...we just answered the question differently...and neither of us are incorrect..initially i responded to

Originally posted by lifesaver
I so fondly remember when Pat and Jerry said that 9/11 was the fault of us sinners; the ones whove had the abortions, homosexuals, adulterers

ANd my point was that OBL thinks the same thing. This is a GOD thing to him above all else. Do you know what an infidel is? it is An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion, especially Christianity or Islam. One who has no religious beliefs.
One who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle. Haven't you seen him in his infamous tapes call us this several times??


The sooner folks realize we're fighting in a Holy war..the sooner we'll see eye to eye. I'm glad Dubya does. ALthough he can't say it cause its not PC.

but i think you just want to be right LOL..so i'll just say it!
YOU"RE RIGHT!!:p

Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

I won't argue with that? but I want to put somethign out there.


So the US support of Saudi Arabia would have nothing to do with Bin Laden's dislike of us? Al Queda was formed to get rid of the brutal Saudi government and would spread to help fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Remember Al Queda didn't pop up in the early 90s.

Bin Laden has also called for a end to Saddam's government in Iraq since Saddam follows a more secular form of government.

Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

People always attack the Saudi government over the factor that it's brutal. Who is exactly nicer or better that wants to step in??? The thing the Saudis should be attacked on is financing many of the outlets and people who are anti-American - many of the same ones who went on to join Al Qaeda. That is what they deserve a lashing for.

-Rudey

Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

Even if we didn't support Saudi Arabia, and we shouldn't, Bin Laden would still have a beef with the US. He is looking for the erdication of all modernity, and the US, more than any nation, exports the cultural products of modernity.

Also, he is one of those people who looks at the Crusades, and still holds a grudge (he needs to take some Prozac and get over that) while conveniently ignoring similar behavior by Muslims in the past. He also does not see that he is a modern day "crusader," with all the negative connotations of the label.

Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

How so Russ? If we didn't support Saudi Arabia, how could he still have beef with the US. His earlier actions (unless I'm wrong) never indicated that he had issues withthe US. Heck he actually helped us out by draining the Soviets in Afghanistan.


What behvaviors of Muslims is Bin Laden overlooking?

Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

Because it doesn't end with Saudi Arabia. It's not as if once he steps over the border he doesn't care what goes on and what religion people are.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

I agree with that 100 percent. This war on terror won't end unless that happens. But don't you find it funny that our government wont' even pursue that option?

Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

No government has and no government will. Some might talk about it but they're not that stupid - Democrat, Republican, Socialist, whatever.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

That's for debate but since we're the situation that we're in now, it's a dead issue. As a muslim, he does not represent what I believe it and it's time he's caught and dealt with.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

I'm talking about Al Qaeda and not all Muslims.

Current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic” and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries–particularly Saudi Arabia. Issued statement under banner of “the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders” in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens—civilian or military—and their allies everywhere. Merged with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Al-Jihad) in June 2001.

And hey I agree that he should be caught and dealt with and I don't understand how someone with diabetes that needs a dialysis machine is just able to walk around all over and hide but hey I'm sure it's not as easy as I think it is.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

We're here>><< on that last poing Rudey. It's crazy and I feel that we should've pour more man-power into capturing him first. With our technology, he'd should've been found a long time ago.

Bin Laden and his cronies need desperately Preparation H-Bomb (B61 model or better) to soothe their inflamed anti-American passions.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

The main problem with the US inteligence is it's over reliance on technology and less on human inteligence. South East Asia, after the Bali bombing, has dome remarkable job in locating and arresting terrorists because of its human inteligence capability. By all account, Jemmah islamiyah has been crippled. Ironically, the Phillipines is the weakest link in that region, yet it receive the most from the United States.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

What are you basing this on??

-Rudey

Which one? the lack of human inteligence or Phillipines as the weak link in South East Asia? Or both?

That the terrorist problems in that region are solved minus the Phillipines.

-Rudey

Never said that it was solved. And I quote, "By all account, Jemmah islamiyah has been crippled." What I meant by this quote is that JI is on the run. Most of their leaderships are behind bars are on the run. There has been reports that JI has changed its tactic from indiscriminate bombing (ie Bali bombing), to target assasination. This is due to the fact that many within JI disagreed with the Bali bombing (as incredible as it sound, it created a split within the organization that resulted in many to quit the organization).

Here is a brief article on JI that is outdated, a year outdated, but many of the info are still relevant:

http://www.crisisweb.org/home/index.cfm?id=1452&l=1

Here is an article by the International Herdl Tribune which argued that the Phillipines is the weakest link:

Link to Article

And here is the actual report, also made by the ICG, about the Philippines and terrorism:

Link to the ICG Article

I didnt try to contradict you. I did contradict you.

It wasnt that much time. Since I am incredibly smart, I can rattle off this stuff all day, and really fast too.

I did my research. My minor is in middle eastern politics.

I did more research than a search through my favorites web-sites.

I did more research on this subject than you could ever-imagine.

I definately did more academic research than the two of the three sources you posted. One was a guys blog that also had a short story on Vampires, and another was from what looks like a church newsletter. Hardly academic.

I'll grant you that I didnt cite any sources at all. Beacuse I wasnt posting a dissertation. I was simply making an observation that, while you may be an incredibly intellegent woman, you sounded INCREDIBLY unimformed with your comment of "Hmm...well in the eyes of Bin Laden...that is true! He doesn't refer to us as infidels for nothing!" Becasue again, Pat Robertson was climing that the 9/11 attacks were brought by GOD. You made an argument for pat Robertson that he didnt even make.

Now, for your statements on my argument. I should have clarified that my point on Bin- Laden wanting us out of the mid-east wasnt the only motivating factor in the 9/11 attacks, but it was the primary factor.

An additional factor that you brought up was a valid one, but unfortunately I believe it / you has the wrong interpertation. From your source:

The more extreme elements detest McDonald's for capturing the gastronomical enthusiasm of their children. They loath MTV for driving their teenagers toward the impure thoughts of sex and individualism and away from the thoughts of the Koran and Allah. They resent the Christian missionaries from Kansas for converting wavering believers into admires of Jesus Christ. They curse the U.S. military troops stationed in their countries for illuminating their impotency. (A parallel to a point I made.) They attack giant multinational corporations headquarted in the towers of New York for selling material dreams that impoverished Muslims cannot afford and that only end up manufacturing frustration.

In its totality, much of the extremist musulm world actually has a love hate relationship with us. Especially the young. They know from history that their culture used to be the premier culture and led the world in art, music, science, literature. Now they are among the poorest peoples on the planet and have seen their once great culture eclipsed by the western cultures. Its a mix of shame and jealousy. That jealousy often gets corrupted into rage. Rage against the western cultures. Yet, many, especially the youth are drwan to western culture. Example, in iran, its illegal to watch western TV or non approved media, yet almost everyone has a sattelite dish that they bring inside and hide during the day and place on their balconies at night so they can watch western TV. Many in Iran watch as much NBC or HBO as you or I do.

Often, people like OBL use the "Western Culture" as a catch all to rally their followers. I dont doubt OBL might resent the things Pat Robertson listed. I highly doubt that would have been the central, or even periphial reasons for the 9/11 attacks. (it makes for good Sunday Morning Service fodder, but thats all) Again, he seems to be primarily concerned with the western armies occupying their holy lands.

The "more extreme believers" and I have one thing in common.
They resent the Christian missionaries from Kansas for converting wavering believers into admires of Jesus Christ.

I resent those people too. They give christianity a bad name. Like those two broads from Waco who were jailed by the taliband in 2001 that the US Army had to stop what they were doing and go in and rescue them. Shouldda left them stupid bitches there to face their fate. If their faith was so strong, it, instead of the US army and my tax dollars should have carried them out of there.

Zealots in any religion are nothing but trouble.

Also, I dont belong to any 'MTV Culture.' My soul isnt owned by Viacom.

Oh, and the Taliband were incredibly gay. Not gehy, but gay. They liked the booty sex. Afghanis view of sexuality is much more fluid and is seen as more of an 'active vs passive partner' kinda thing. Women are off limits, your in a foxhole fighting the northern alliance, yada, yada, yada.


*Edited to correct the spelling errors I cared to go back and look for and change the term 'gals' to bitches in the section about the dumb bitches from Waco.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IS this clear lifesaver?
 

ALL intellligence is flawed. The US used to have a balanced approach of technology and human resources. As a result of the Church Hearings of 1975, the Ford Administration dramaticaly curtailed the human side of American intelligence gathering capabilities.

The current Bush Administration has restored much, if not all, of these capabilities. Because it takes time to build relationships, it will take years to bring this aspect of intelligence to full strength.

Its about Modernity?
 

Bin Laden is primarily at war with Modernity. Not the Saudis, and not the US.

The US, more than any other nation, represents modernity. The US, more than any other nation, exports the cultural products of modernity. Bin Laden wants MTV (among other things) to no longer be available to Muslims. Even if the US did not support Saudi Arabia, there would still be MTV, and it would still be exported. That's why Bin Laden would still have a major grievance with the US.

Modernity and Western Civilization are the larger issue. Islam is a Western religion, and Arabian culture is also Western, and Bin Laden rejects this. Its important to understand that Islam is Western. It shares the same roots with Judaism and Christianity. It does not share a heritage with Budhism, Hinduism, and other Eastern religions. Its even more important to understand that Arabian culture is Western. It has far more in common with Europe, than it does with the Ming Dynasty, and it was the ideas of Arabian scholars that helped build the foundation of the European Renaissance.

Until the European Renaissance, which never really ended, every great civilization entered a period of stagnation and then relative decline. Including Islamic Arabia. They were great, and they no longer are. It was ideas from Arabian scholars that provided the beginning to much of the Renaissance. The Renaissance staged the birth of the Enlightenment in the mid-18th century. At this time, Arabia was past the point of stagnation, and well into a period of relative decline. Wahabism was born, and less than 20 years later, the first nation ever founded on ideas, the U.S., was born. The ideology that forged the U.S., more than anything else, was the Enlightenment.

The U.S. can trace part of its ideoligical lineage to Arabia, and where those common ideas failed to sustain Arabia, they helped propel the U.S. to become the most powerful nation on Earth. Make no mistake about it, Arabs are extremely jealous of the U.S., and Bin Laden is no exception. They feel robbed, even though their decline is their own fault. They, like other civilizations, became arrogant, and stagnated. The ideas of the Enlightenment don't allow for that.

The Enlightenment is the basis for Modernity, and Bin Laden hates this with every fiber of his being. He especially hates that the Saudi Royal Family embraces Modernity on the weekends, while vacationing in Europe, and then embraces Wahabism when its convenient.

Bin Laden wants a world that died hundreds of years ago. No nation is keeping that world from him more than the U.S.

Good post, Russ!

Extremists like Bin Laden view anything new (even things like cars) as bida'a which in Arabic means "innovation", but not innovation in the sense of progress, but innovation as in "perversion". There's nothing in Islam that forbids things like TV, computers, or technology in general. They just see only the negative aspects and declare it bad without realizing that there's a lot of good in technology as well.

Frankly, I hope we take a bit of our technology and pay him a visit, so to speak.