Badge Question
 

Okay, in light of the recent and (and somewhat heated debate) about the I.C Sorosis pin, I have a badge question.

Upon someones resignation from the organization usually any Pi Phi related items are asked to be returned to the organization.
So my question is, who owns our badge. Is it the member or the organization?

Not sure about the answer to your question, but hijacking the thread to commiserate with a fellow victim of the "somewhat heated debate" thread - have you noticed how the poster on the other side of that debate only seems to appear in threads about badges and GLO memorabilia? /hijack

If the organization owns the badge, but it's being sold on eBay, is it considered stolen property? Can the organization make a claim with eBay?

In a nutshell, no. Because posession is 9/10ths of the law and unless you can provide a legally binding signed document or police report stating that it's stolen, the seller has every right to sell it. It's unfortunate, but true. Instead of getting mad at sellers, what our organizations need to focus on is educating members on proper badge disposal so that in the future there will be fewer--and ideally no--badges for sale.

And to answer the other part of your post, that's because that's what he knows most about and is most interested in. He actually is a font of useful knowledge and very nice. I think he's just frustrated at the bad rep the collectors get from the majority of the posters here. That frustration comes through in his posts.

I've noticed that and it really annoys me. That poster could care less about the greek community unless it involves badges. That's all I have to say about that or I'm going to make myself mad.

This is from the Arrow archives on the Pi Phi website - in a nutshell, it only addresses disposition of the badge upon the death of a member, not resignation:

A Reminder About Our Badge According to the Pi Beta Phi Constitution, Article XVIII, Section 2:
Collegiate members are expected to wear the Pi Beta Phi badge at all appropriate times.
Wearing of a replica of the I.C. badge is restricted to chapter presidents. The replica badge is the property of the chapter.
No member shall give, sell or lend a Pi Beta Phi badge to any person not a duly initiated member of the Fraternity.
The Pi Beta Phi badge shall be used only as a badge and shall not be used as a mounting on any piece of jewelry.
Upon the death of its owner, a badge may be buried with its owner, bequeathed to a member of the Fraternity or to a collegiate chapter or alumnae club to be used as an honor badge or sent to Headquarters for such disposition as directed by Grand Council.

dakareng can probably give us some good information - she's probably busy working (which is what I should be doing ...)

After these most recent posts, I'm changing my will to say that if I don't have any Pi Phi descendants my badge is going directly to HQ.

This thread asked that question too, and got a lot of good responses, including some from lawyers…

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...threadid=53081

Why would this annoy you? Don’t you think it should be up to the GC member which topics he does or does not post in?

Once again you’ve generalized about someone you really don’t know anything about. I am a proud and active alumnus of very old and prestigious fraternity. Because of my appreciation for our greek history, I dedicate just about every spare minute of my time to historical research on fraternities and sororities, and my GC posting habits tend to follow that interest. I collect badges, rituals, regalia, photos, pledge manuals, directories, history books and just about everything else greek – so yes, I consider myself an authority on the subject of badges.

Just because I don’t jump onto every inane chatter thread on this forum, do not make the mistake of thinking I don’t care about being greek. You might say I care enough about the greek community to actually point out when I don’t think we’re living up to our ideals like we’re supposed to.

I mean, in this particular case, basically people insulted that woman because she sold a pin. Insulted her publicly. With no chance for her to rebut. A woman whose family had previously been very generous to the sorority. They wanted her to give away a $5k item and she declined. So they called her a greedy %$*#(@. Pretty much sum it up? * Do you really not see that that behavior is inappropriate for people who are supposed to uphold a higher standard of conduct? If you don’t see that, then I guess we have nothing more to talk about.

* Then when someone disagreed with what was said, you came over here to a more secluded forum and posted something unflattering about HIM.



ISUkappa, thanks very much for the kind words. They seem to have been lost on this audience, but I appreciate it nonetheless. Other rescue orgs have learned that collectors like me can be very helpful to their efforts. But I suppose it took KKG and GphiB a while to realize that, so it will take ADPi and Pi Phi some time as well.

wptw

I'm not going to get into an argument with you over this, but I would like to say that I refrained from posting on the original thread and responded to something one of my sisters said. I'm allowed to be annoyed with anything I want to be annoyed with. Right now I'm annoyed at the man riding his motorcycle in the parking lot. He is allowed to ride his motorcycle in the parking lot as it is public property. I am allowed to have an emotional reaction to what someone else is doing.

I don't know you, all I do know is that everytime someone on here posts about a badge and complains about people selling things that mean a lot to them you post. I don't see you posting on threads about Risk Management or recruitment or on how to better the greek system. Instead it appears to me that you just want to lecture us on what is right or wrong. We're women, we're emotional, and when we're upset about something we may be verbal. I'm sorry that my comment offended you but unless I'm mistaken I have the option of free will and can feel however I want.

Pardon the interruption ladies - but where DID that original thread go? Has it been deleted?

(and jharb - what a GREAT explanation! props to you!)

After I die, if my badge ends up on eBay, I'm going to come back and haunt wptw. ;)

Best explanation I’ve heard all day.

OK, I’ll be sure to also berate people in the Risk Management and Recruitment threads from now on – not just on badge threads.

That’s a date.

wptw

Works for me. :p

And now back to the ORIGINAL question which was posted in the PI PHI forum and is NOT about whether or not the relative who sold the IC badge was not looking to make some big bucks (I doubt it was appraised at $5K.... that is the what the collector who purchased it paid) or whether or not Pi Phis have a right to discuss our feelings about a heritage badge being sold at public auction... I think we Pi Phis DO have the right to discuss it in OUR forum. If you don't like that, you don't have to visit our forum.

As individual members of Pi Beta Phi, we purchase our badges (the plain badge being included in the initiation fees) so they do belong to the member *but* when a member resigns, they no longer have the right to wear the arrow badge and it is supposed to be returned to HQ. I suppose if someone had purchased a jeweled badge, they could argue the point and I do remember a pledge sister of mine selling her jeweled arrow to her little sis prior to resigning.

Karen, the whole thing has settled down, so don't open it up again. I only came into this PUBLIC forum because people were specifically discussing ME. We settled it, and I was out of here.

Want me out of YOUR forum? Then drop the snarky jabs and the CAPSLOCK attitude and get on with your discussion. Or if you'd rather keep up the pissing contest until this thread is deleted as well, I'm game for that too. Up to you.

And it wasn't a collector who won that badge. Check their auction history. I'll bet you the winner turns out to be a Pi Phi.

wptw

Well, a person may consider a topic "done" but if someone else hasn't had the opportunity to share their opinion and decides to share it, then it really isn't "done". So really, she can say whatever she wants. Whenever she wants. Regardless of what you think. Deal.

oi ve.....
Badge discussion is a way for members to come together and share with one another their love of their fraternity/sorority. Yes, sometimes it will become passionate, and sometimes reason takes a backseat to emotion, but isn't that simple human nature? We're told to love Pi Beta Phi and everything it stands for. A lot of meaning is embedded within those badges and it does pull at our heart strings to see those lovely items fall into the hands of someone who cannot begin to comprehend the depth of meaning they hold in their hands. We all hope the winners of every PiPhi badge auction is a PiPhi, however, the overwhelming trend has told us not to trust our hopes and instead inquire into the identity of the highest bidders. Every woman with an unhealthy obsession with the internet and GC would do the same for her sorority, not just the PiPhis :p

I have a serious question. If a member were to be cremated, if anyone knows, would the badge successfully melt with the rest?

Somehow I don't think their Nationals would really want their badge burnt. If a member wanted to be with her badge after cremation I suppose they could throw it in the urn with her ashes. Would the badge get hot enough to melt though? Probably not...and I bet most morges have rules about what they will/won't try and burn with the body, and I think metal would fall under a won't.

Just an FYI on the cremation question:

Crematoriums do not cremate bodies with any clothing, jewelry, etc. on. If you send the body to the crematorium with any clothing, jewelry, or other personal property, the crematorium will remove those items before the body can enter the cremation bay, and will either return the items to the next-of-kin when the cremation is complete, or will dispose of the items accordingly (depending on the preferences the next-of-kin has specified on the legal documents the next-of-kin fills out ahead of time).

This is all because metal in the cremation bays can cause damage to the bays. That's why the crematoriums are so specific (almost frighteningly so) about what sorts of items are being burned with the body. The overarching policy is that ONLY the body is allowed to submitted to the cremation bay.

Sorry to be so morbid, but this is all in the way of saying that there is no way a person would be cremated with his/her badge. It simply wouldn't happen!

Oh wow! That completely answers my question. :)

Thanks for answering my questions.

What if a member resigned and was told that her badge (the standard badge) was to be returned and then a week later it pops up on ebay. Is there anyway to get that back? She was told to return any property and she failed to do so.

I don't know the exact statistics, but I think most resignations occur during collegiate years (few alumnae do so, unless they are making some sort of protest statement). With that being the case, the simple way to ensure this doesn't happen is to not submit the paperwork until the badge is returned... the resignation is not official until the property is returned, therefore that person is still going to be billed. That may sound petty but so is selling your own badge on Ebay out of anger. Besides, since the standard badge is gold-filled not 14K, it only costs ~$10. Anyone who bids up a plan badge hasn't priced them (honestly though, that is my advice when bidding on any badge-- know how much that badge costs new and whether it is truly vintage before you bid)

To answer your question, Lady Pi Phi, no there isn't. Even though our policies require that property be returned, since individual members have purchased their badges, short of holding back the paperwork, there isn't anything you can do.

Calm it on down.

I can appreciate your wanting to defend a sister, but Karen's hardly being attacked -- she made an inadequately supported statement, and wptw pointed that out.


Karen: "... whether or not Pi Phis have a right to discuss our feelings about a heritage badge being sold at public auction... I think we Pi Phis DO have the right to discuss it in OUR forum..."

No one EVER said Pi Phis don't have the right to DISCUSS the selling of the badge. What was under discussion was (a) the right and/or appropriateness of any Greek hurling insults at a seller (in this case not even a sister) who refuses to donate an item, and (b) speculation on the value the badge may or may not have to the buyer.

I can certainly see where the selling/purchase of an IC badge would ruffle the feathers of a Pi Phi -- after all, I can only imagine the reaction of my Phi Mus if an old-school Philomathean badge was offered up!

But when it comes right down to it.... as a group of greeks, we haven't made the effort to protect the ownership of our badges legally, so there's really nothing we can do. I don't even know if it's rational to think there would be a way to keep every GLO badge off ebay, or if it might ever happen.

Maybe we should think, instead, about making the best of the situation we have.

I think it if were my sorority, I'd be glad we didn't spend the $5,000.00 to "rescue" the badge. That money alone could save a chapter from closing. That chapter could bring the bonds of sisterhood to MANY, MANY women -- far more than would ever actually see or touch the $5k badge.

You guys have a badge and a history that people consider valuable and honorable. People who don't even know what the badge stands for! Please realize that it's a HUGE accomplishment to have achieved such a reputation as a sorority, and fostering the kind of negative attitude towards others -- even collectors -- that I've seen on this board the last week or so does not promote that.

Pi Phi has a proud sisterhood and a lot of history. That's valuable. Even non-Pi Phis can see that! You guys' job is to protect that heritage and reputation -- NOT by "saving" badges, but by being the sophisticated, lively, educated ladies and friends your founders fought so hard to make of themselves.

I can understand why you'd want the badge. And if it was my call, I'd hand it over to you, because I think you have an ethical "right" to it. But there's no reason to lower yourselves to cat-fighting over it. The badge will be respected and cared for; the price makes that obvious. Enough is enough!

We are trying to calm it down... as I began a response earlier... back to the original question.

This thread was started because a Pi Phi had a question about Pi Phi policy. That is what we are trying to do. I'm trying to answer a question that a non-Pi Phi is unlikely to know. As much as wptw wants to believe he is an expert on the subject of sorority badges (I don't dispute that he values and understands historical artifacts) or knows the ebay signon of every collector (how else does he know it was a Pi Phi who won it?), I doubt he knows our policies. That is not intended as a personal slam-- believe it or not, I do appreciate what he does.

We'll let it drop if y'all will, too.

maybe he IS a member of a sorority :eek:

maybe "wptw" stands for "wilma paula tanya washington."

First we know he is not a member of a sorority. Because he's already claimed membership in a fraternity.

Secondly, this thread was not designed to bash anyone or to continue a thread that had been deleted. It was placed in the Pi Phi forum because I had a Pi Phi specific question. Quite frankly I didn't want a million an a half responses from members of other organizations when I knew they would not be able to answer my question. If I wanted a general answer I would have posted in greek like.

Also, despite some of our personal feelings about the badge and it's seller, they are our personal feelings. No one here ever demanded that our HQ spend $5k+ on a badge no matter how historically signifcant it is and how wonderful it would be if we could possess that. The idea of having HQ rescue the badge went out the window when the price reach $1000.

This thread was never about "THE badge".

Now, I would like to take this time to thank my sisters who have answered my questions.

/catfight.

Oh boy. Sorry I wasn't around this weekend! I'll comment on a few things and then I'm locking this baby down. I think these topics can be discussed without drama, and I'll leave the thread around for reference. If there's still need for discussion about what Pi Phi policy exactly is, we can start a new thread about that. But there shouldn't be any need for anyone to slam anyone else. I think the issue has basically already cooled off, but since it seems that some people keep coming back to chat about it, it's getting a locky-locky.

As far as getting back badges from resigned members:

As President, I've understood that it's my duty to go to members and collect their badges and chapter materials and property in their possession when they resign. They give me the stuff, and I sign off on their resignation. There's been debate about this in my chapter before--I don't advocate snatching every Pi Phi tee-shirt that member has ever purchased, for example. That member has paid for them, and it's no different than a non-member who participated in a Pi Phi philanthropy wearing a t-shirt from that event. I do think it's a good idea to try to get back badges. I haven't dealt with a resignation yet (yay!) but if someone protested me trying to get their badge, I don't know exactly how I'd deal. Probably contact my AAC chair and CPP for the next step. Legally, I don't really think I could wrest the badge from her if she was willing to fight it that hard. I think in terms of PR it would be better just to let it go if she wanted it that badly. (Better a badge on ebay than an angry ex-Pi Phi badmouthing us on campus about being stingy/coldhearted, IMHO.) Although, I think in most cases the person doesn't really have a strong enough interest in Pi Phi to want to keep it that badly (that's why she's resigned, right?).

Again if we want to continue some discussion on ways of dealing with badges and ebay and stuff we can do that in a thread less tinged with drama.

For the record, I'm not incredibly concerned with people collecting our badges online. They're beautiful objects, and it's natural that non-members would want to collect them, even if they would never mean quite the same thing to a non-member. I'm going to italicize the next part.

Better a collector who appreciates what he or she feels Pi Phi stands for and cherishes the badge than a member who fails to live up to Pi Phi values, fails to contribute, and doesn't care what her badge means. Earnest collectors don't reflect poorly on Pi Phi. Members who ignore the values the badge stands for do.

Just to note, that was in no way meant to reflect on anyone on greekchat. Just something I've come to realize after being President and trying and trying to get through to sisters which things are really important.

Thanks for stopping by everyone.