Have Mossad agents been caught trying to secure foreign passports?
 

New Zealand is raising a political stink because of two Israeli citizens arrested after trying to secure New Zealand passports. The New Zealand government alleges that the two men caught are Mossad agents, while the two men claim they are members of organized crime… diplomatic relations have become strained (diplomatic relations suspended), criticism of Israel and Israeli policy has been in media, and now a case anti-Semitic vandalism has occurred.

The reason that this of is of interest to me is that it seems to mirror cases that happened in Canada a number of years ago, and could involve Canadian diplomatic relations if the allegations that the men used Canadian passports and are connected to Mossad or the Israeli government prove true. I hate to see any country using the reputation of another to do it's dirty or illegal work... and it would particularly pain me to see Israeli agents hiding behind Canadian passports again.

New Zealand Herald coverage:
Story-
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...portID=1162641
Canadian connections-
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...portid=1162641
Canadian concerns-
http://ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/servle..._kidon20030424


ADL Disclaimer -
Please note that this post is a criticism of Israel and Israeli policy, with regards to the Mossad and it's actions.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the Mossad itself, but rather the individual agents involved. They should investigate this further before just cutting ties. And there's no excuse for the anti-Semetic attacks in NZ (or elsewhere, for that matter)

I love how people post something and say don't say anything against me I'm criticizing Israel and I'm not anti-semitic without anyone accusing them of anything. I guess said people must have been accused of such things in the past. Perhaps said people have been going around GC claiming they know so much about Jews, antisemitism, Israel and get ashamed when someone presents them with facts, figures, statistics, and all sorts of proof making them look...shamed.

The news:
There was no proof by New Zealand. They can say what they want. Furthermore, New Zealand made these allegations in the beginning making a fair trial impossible while political figures were happy to keep making the allegations. Israel did not treat it as well as it should have diplomatically and is now pursuing it that way. There is no justification of anti-semitic acts and have no bearing on this.

-Rudey

It's just I have been attacked in the past for an article I wrote years ago that was critical of Israeli intelligence operations... A couple of groups on campus sent me some interesting hate mail and a couple of death threats... kinda ironic because two months earlier I had written an article praising the Israeli military performance in the Yom Kippur War, after which I recieved hate mail too... so in the future I always included a little disclaimer at the end of my articles, and mailed or dropped off a copy at the consulate (it's two blocks from my college).... all in the hopes of stemming any attacks on me or those I care about. So I attached to my post in the hopes that intelligent people could see the difference between critizing the actions of a government agency and a people... they are two seperate entities and should be treated as such...

Right that explains it. Except you never did it in the past when you wrote about Israel on Greekchat. But now you did. Right, right.

-Rudey
--Perhaps said person doesn't know much about the region, Israel, has made statements regarding the existence of anti-semitism *cough cough*.

Look Rudey I couldn't give a flying f*ck what you think, the preceding posts weren't directed at you... but at others on GC and the original was done somewhat tongue in cheek because of whom I was talking to when I posted the thread. Further the reason I did it this time is from previous experience on GC I have noticed some people can't be given the benifit of the doubt when it comes to both their intelligent or the insight when it comes to debating issues concerning Israel.

Hey if it makes you feel better perhaps you can call my ex-girlfriend a race traitor.. it seemed to be choice phrase used by some members of the greek community up here when I first published the article on the Mossad.

Now back to the subject at hand... in the past Canada has recieved promises that Israel (more specifically Mossad) would not illegally use Canadian passports. Last time it happened (the third time) Canada withdrew it's ambassador and suspended diplomatic relations until a formal apology was recieved and assurances were given... now if it does turn out that once again Mossad has been using Canadian passports I don't know what would happen. In the past Canada has tried to bring the matter up in international courts, but caved under some strong-arm tactics from the Americans in support of Israel. However this time the international courts aren't as favourably disposed to Israel or any American influence (see the ruling on the Barrier Wall), and this time New Zealand would also be lodging complaints as well... so maybe so action could be taken, or penalty handed out to discourage this insulting behaviour... thoughts?

If the shoe fits?

-Rudey
--Wear it.

Your proof?

-Rudey

What is that remark supposed to mean?

Please do some research into the topic at hand... use some of your much vaunted education. Otherwise contribute to the debate in other than quips.

You, like anyone from New Zealand, currently has no proof that these are Mossad agents.

If you had read my first post you would know that. I am very familiar with Mossad's history and operations and don't really care much for the fact that you wrote a book report on them.

-Rudey

So you refute that this is outside of the Mossad's procedures? So the fact that they have been caught in the past, numerous times, has no bearing at all by your thinking?

Oh and you still haven't explained your statement about "if the shoe fits"....

I am telling you there is NO PROOF. Do you not understand that?? Are you absolutely and utterly stupid? When there is proof, then we'll talk. Right now there is NONE.

And my statement? I find it funny that you put disclaimers out there and are afraid of what hole your peg might fit into, otherwise you wouldn't have said it.

-Rudey

Come come Rudey surely you can see why with the weight of history behind Mossad using foreign passport why people may suppose that yet again Mossad was trying to aquire illegally passports in furthance of their operations.... heck even an Israeli former Foreign Ministry director-general, Alon Liel, has come out and said that it is actions like these damages Israel's foreign standing and I quote "No country likes its sovereignty infringed upon," he continued. "The problem is that the Mossad doesn't seem to be learning from its mistakes, and lately there have been too many of these."
-link to quote: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1078113566627
So with the weight of history and comments such as these I am apt to believe the allegations... because they have proven true so many other times...


As for your statement: "If the shoe fits": Why not come out and say what you mean? Or perhaps instead you perfer to hide behind innuendo because you realised you misspoke? Or perhaps you just say what you do in a vainglorious grab for attention?

I think if people have told you that you were anti-semitic they had their reasons. I'm not said people and I don't know the details. I do know that you can't keep your stories straight and say you're just stupid. Wear whatever shoes you want. I've had no trouble in the past outright telling you that you were dumb, that you were old, that you had no experiences other than a military...why would I stop there? Every time you've posted on Israel, I've corrected your lies. When you posted bullshit about not too much anti-semitism in Europe, I corrected your lies.

And back to the topic. Again, neither you nor New Zealand have proof of anything. Too bad you can't grasp a simple statement like that.

-Rudey

The breadth of your material needs improving… the same old tired (almost cliché now) line of dismissive insults again: my military service precluding me from knowledge of other aspects of the world in which we live, while at the same time somehow not being knowledgeable about the military; yours views of my intellect, but then considering the others you have insulted with regards to their intellect and education, I’d have to consider myself in good company; and my finally using my age as something to insult or use as somehow derogatory… which I might add is discriminatory (the same as making derogatory or bigoted comments about say a person’s sex or race… at least legally).

Yes I have had people call me anti-Semitic… but I’ve also been called a “Jew Lover”, a Nazi, a Fascist, a Socialist, White Trash, a Spoiled Rich Kid, a Hippy, a “Baby Killer”, an idiot (one of your favourites), and an intellectual elitist… but I dismissed those as the ravings of people who enjoy nothing more than trying to force their views on others… without being willing to debate their beliefs, much less defend them. It’s a poor debater that resorts to insults instead of coherent arguments and opinion… so you might want to consider that before you dismiss either myself or others on GC who are attempting to carry-on at least the semblance of adult debate.

As for the topic… so neither New Zealand nor myself have proof of anything? Well other than relying on past experience and the allegations of New Zealand security services and Canadian intelligence… but then we all know how governments or their intelligence services can misinterpret intelligence huh? Well so far Canadian and New Zealand services are convinced of the sentenced men’s involvement with Mossad, either as agents or in their employ, but since our countries aren’t important I guess it doesn’t matter does it? After all you’ve said Canada isn’t important… and apparently Israel has the same opinion of New Zealand:
<A BBC correspondent in Jerusalem, David Chazan, says Israeli officials give the impression of regarding New Zealand as a relatively unimportant country. Sources close to the government say the Israeli reaction might have been different if a larger and more influential country had been involved.>
full article-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3896009.stm

While I may be wrong, and New Zealand might be wrong, and Canadian intelligence might be wrong… but I have to wonder why they would suppose that these two men that have been sentenced have ties to Mossad? In the case of using a previous argument that you used against me on other subjects… perhaps they know something you don’t… afterall that was your argument concerning my doubts about the intelligence concerning WMD.

Being anti-semitic and being White Trash are different things. One affects people, the other doesn't. If people tell you that you are, I'm sure they don't have turrets. Evidently you thought about it so much that you came on here saying you weren't. Remember when you tried to tell me I was wrong to feel that there was anti-semitism in Europe too>?

WMD? Again, they said the weapons were there - they being intelligence agencies all over the world as well as the UN. Saddam says they weren't. For them to not be there they either have to be destroyed or moved. For it to be destroyed means there are sites with the materials around. Again, we might not have found WMD but we have not found WMD destruction sites. Evidently you have such difficulty arguing when you feel you're anti-semitic and know Rudey is going to prove you wrong that you digress. Great job.

Again, YOU AND NEW ZEALAND HAVE NO PROOF.

Since you can't read,
Since you can't think logically,
why don't you just tell me I'm ugly and have no personality?

-Rudey
--No proof? No proof? woo woo an old man who went to college at the ripe old age of retirement has no proof?

Again US & UK intelligence agencies aren't "everyone"...

See I'm convinced that the men were infact affiliated with Mossad, even though I "have no proof"... just as you are convinced that there are WMD even though you "have no proof". I fail to see why you view is so solid in your case, but mine isn't... oh well for the arrogant superiority of the self-deluded....

Because they existed before. And now there is no evidence of their destruction.

There is no proof presented showing these men are Mossad agents at any point. Had there been such proof, and then somehow you lost said proof, that would be a relevant analogy. In fact had there been such proof, none of this would even be questioned. I don't care that you are "convinced", because some people are "convinced" that they see aliens.

-Rudey
--Delivering little lessons in logic to Canadians every day.

No no, my man - the correct statement was that the WMD were there, which is what I believe Rudey claimed - and this is a fact, until you provide proof to the contrary (which, even as contrarian as you and Rudey can be toward each other, you surely won't attempt this, as the weapons didn't just exist, they were used at one point . . . no matter how people claim they were 'eliminated' or shipped to Syria or etc. the only thing we don't know is timeline, essentially).

Here's the thing: if you're going to go w/ a 'feeling' or 'educated guess' made by NZ's intelligence officials . . . well, I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm about 99% sure that use of foreign passports by intelligence officials is SOP for many nations of the world. Do I have proof? Nope, but it's been done in the past, so it probably still happens.

Do you agree w/ my logic? B/c it's your logic as well, to my mind.

Ha… you should have stated that you attempt to deliver lessons on flawed logic… which unfortunately we are all to aware of… at what does the Canadian comment mean or imply hmm?

There is no proof that the men are Mossad agents… only allegations and innuendo (bugged conversations and all), historical parallels to other Mossad operations to acquire foreign passports, and strong suspicion re-enforced by the Israeli refusal to provide information about the alleged agents. Conversely you base your belief in Iraq’s possession of WMD on allegations and innuendo based on statements by defectors and anti-government forces, the history of Saddam’s programs and actions, and of course the fact that suspicion was raised by Saddam’s refusal to provide any information about the alleged WMD.

While the are un-confirmed reports that the “alleged” agents were bugged for a lengthy period of time before their arrest… and that the allegations of the men’s attachment to Mossad was based off this bugging… but what I keep asking myself is why Israel hasn’t bothered to apologize for the actions of it’s citizens (regardless of their affiliations), and why hasn’t Israel confirmed or denied the allegations.

No the weapons were there. Nobody denies that. The UN does not deny that. Not the Kurds and Iranians who tasted the chemicals for sure.

Again, you're making allegations. Present this proof or shutup.

-Rudey
--I guess Canada doesn't have a great education system

Based on previous allegations and history, I have come to the conclusion that Canada's military supports terrorists, thieves, and child molestors. Nothing has been presented in any court of law, and this is my suspicion as of a minute ago, but at this current time it is now something I am convinced of.

-Rudey
--RACooper's logic

No Mossad agents have done this before. Nobody denies that. Israel does not deny that. Not the Canadian and Australian govenments that have recieved repeated assurances that Mossad wouldn't do it again.

Again, these are not allegation but actual fact if you care to look into it... as for proof of allegations of bugging:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...portID=1162641
Which you'll note that I refered to as un-confirmed reports...

But of course petty attacks on Canada by yourself is pretty much par for the course isn't it? Why is it that you may make these little jabs at the country I love, while others are forbidden to even question any of those that you hold allegance to? Hmm? If you can find an example of where I have accused the American military of supporting terrorism, thieves, and child molestors I'd like to see it... so please have the honour to not resort to any further unfounded and uncalled for insults leveled against my country....

Hey I have unconfirmed reports and you have unconfirmed reports. We both have unconfirmed reports. Nobody is taking jabs at anyone. If you don't see your post as a jab, there is no reason to see mine as one. These are all unconfirmed reports and surely nobody enjoys unconfirmed reports.

ETA: I'm scared that you threatened my life on the Chit Chat forum and then told me to find out why you were no longer in the military, implying a violent history. I've quoted you in my signature.

-Rudey

Lay off the personal attack. First and last warning.