AzSU Pikes caught with topless woman, whips, welts on bare butts
 

ASU fraternity put on probation for hazing
By Kristina Davis, Tribune
An Arizona State University fraternity has been placed on probation for hazing after photos of a whipwielding woman and the red, bare buttocks of male students were released to university administrators earlier this year, officials said.

The Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity will be on probation through Dec. 31, 2005, but members still will be allowed to attend university functions and live at their house on campus, at 615 Alpha Drive, said university spokesman Manny Romero.

Members also must complete a mandatory hazing risk management workshop and 100 hours of community service.

"We are working with the administration and Greek life to put whatever happened in the past and to better the image of Greek life on campus," said Tim Guelich, a fraternity member and president of ASU’s Interfraternity Council. "It’s a moot point whether it was hazing or not, it’s open to interpretation what happened. The fraternity is now dealing with what has been handed to them from administration."

The investigation was prompted by photographs of a woman, who is topless in one of the photos, wielding a whip or belt, while the other students show "clearly visible red marks/welts on their bare buttocks," according to a memo written by ASU police Cmdr. Allen Clark.

Others show at least eight men lying on their stomachs with their arms and legs in awkward positions with pieces of lime in their mouths, the memo stated.

The seven photos were anonymously delivered March 15 to the ASU Office of Greek Life and the Office of Student Life along with a letter of complaint.

"The university administration strongly disapproves of this kind of behavior," officials said in a prepared statement Thursday.

Officials would not confirm whether the students in the photos were pledges or members.

ASU’s Tau Kappa Epsilon fraternity also is under investigation for similar activities, Romero said. Photos linked to the fraternity show topless women dancing and male students being pleasured by the women.

The photos surfaced on the Internet but were taken down on orders from national chapter leaders, said regional director Eric Chamberlain.

:eek: Has nothing been learnt from the saga of Lisa Gier King?!

Re: AzSU Pikes caught with topless woman, whips, welts on bare butts
 

Topless women and getting pleasured is hazing? :eek:

It's potentially a risk management nightmare. See above comment.

I'll say this very seldom. But in this case, I wouldn't have minded being hazed :D

On the other hand, I think it teaches a valuable lesson. If you're hazing, don't take pictures.

Lisa Gier King?
 

Please remind me what she did or is. Thanks.

If you do a Google search, you'll find a lot of material on the issue.

-Bill F.

They should have been smart and turned around and said it was just a sex thing... nothing to do with the chapter . . .

Lisa Gier King?
 

Please remind me what she did or is. Thanks.

I can't find any good links on the Lisa Gier King thing (I just googled it) but basically, she claimed to have been raped (and the rape caught on film) at the UF Delta Chi house. After escaping from the house, she ran over to Theta Chi where she used their phone to call for help. The UF Police Department arrested her rather than the alleged rapists.

These are strippers...I dont know about you, but when strippers come over and its someone's bday or bachelor party strippers do this....This has been taken way too harshly and is bullshit....I didnt know gettin a lap dance was hazing....

I just read the letter written by the victim's mother from the link above. It's so sad what the victim went through. I never heard of that story before.

Sorry friend, but if this were your chapter, you could be in a public relations nightmare.

Having nude men on the ground with lime in their mouths in strange positions, and a topless woman wielding a whip and other men with welts on their butts has what to do with having a lap dance? Is lap dancing even mentioned in the article? The chapter screwed up -- if for no other reason (and I think there are lots of other reasons), by letting someone take pictures.

On the other hand, given what I was able to glean from the Lisa Gier King links, I don't know what an alleged (even probable) rape several years ago has to do with this situation.

Sounds like something that would have happened in Abu Ghraib.

Sans dogs.

Relax...
 

Sorry friend, but this isnt the kind of thing I've done with my chapter, this is something I've seen at a bachelor party. Yeah, and what does rape have to do with this situation at all???
Sorry to inform most of you, but when strippers are told to give a certain group of guys a good show or a special treatment, this is what they do. I dont really see the big issue with this, I mean getting smacked around by some strippers sounds kinda fun to me....

Re: Relax...
 

Didn't say it was.

However, the university in this case has decided to make it a big deal. Lots of others would, too. You can't just do what these guys did, get caught, and expect nobody to be taken to task for it.

How you consider it doesn't count -- it's how those in charge feel.

Re: Re: Relax...
 

I'm pretty aware of that. I just think its bullshit to be taken to this high of a degree.

Re: Re: Re: Relax...
 

I think that when you've been an advisor and a division or national officer, you'll be even more aware.

Seems like you're the one thats not too aware of what goes on in the real world...

I think that one of the reasons that chapters are so much at ther mercy of the "opinions" of university officials is that they don't retain lawyers.

Generally college administrators are rather heavy handed and cavalier because colleges are pretty much closed systems

They generally make procedural and ethical mistakes.

However, you need an attourney to catch them at it.

Agreed. Every chapter should keep at least one alum-attorney around and if possible keep one active on their advisory board.

You're probably right.

It's guys like me who get to go investigate incidents like this one, and make the really tough decisions about whether a chapter lives or dies. Or gets to try to defend the same chapter if we disagree with the university.

Or (although I've never had to do this, friends and brothers have) deal with parents, media, etc. when a member is seriously hurt or killed.

After you've had that responsibility, we'll talk more.

See i think the problem with what went on was that the incident when on at the fraternity house or as part of a post initiation "reward"/local tradition. This stuff happens all the time and yes it happens in the real world but the issue is that what went on probably happened at the fraternity house to just that recently initiated brothers as a reward.

A house at my school used to do this until such incidents were seen as a possible risk management issue. if they did this at a strip club away from campus the issue might be different.

Shoot when my pledge class went on an out of state pledge retreat we went to a strip club and we bought a pldge brother a lap dance on the stage and they whipped him and all. But if thats hazing and i am sure somehow it could be seen as it i am sorry and will advise against doing that in the future but we did go there as friends not as a fraternity event.

This probably was a fraternity event and probably a post initiation "reward".

thermobryan your point is valid as long as it isn't at the fraternity house or a manditory event.

DeltALum is right in saying that they should have not done this and atleast not have pictures taken.

I hope i got to all the issues.

I live next to Pike at ASU. This was for big bro lil bro revealing. Its been blow out of proportion. There is much worse hazing going on at ASU than having strippers.

A lot of issues which are alleged to be hazing are blown out of proportion (my opinion only), but that's the climate we live in. Laws are vague and open to wide interpretation.

Whether the actions are dangerous (or even hazing) or not, the charges are enough to cast a long shadow on a chapter, and sometimes the entire Greek System at a college.

Then, they are added to the "statistics" overall and insurance premiums go up, etc. Remember that no matter what letters you wear, you are painted with the same brush as far as the public and the insurance industry are concerned.

If you could put yourselves in the place of your National Office (or officers), you might have a different view of the problem here. Even a pro-fraternity university administration would be forced to take action when presented with pictures of an event like this one. If they didn't, and the word got out (which it would since someone obviously is passing the pics around), the public outcry would be very damaging to the institution.

Look at some of the lawsuits from hazing. Who gets sued? The chapter officers, the chapter advisors, the national office, the university, sometimes the chapter officers parents, and anyone else the lawyer can think of.

That's why this stuff is called Risk Management.

You can believe you aren't doing anything wrong. You can pontificate that the whole world is against you. You can cry it isn't fair. Whatever.

If you get caught, though, (and these guys did) you're screwed. And everything above ain't gonna help.

The rules are the rules. The law is the law.

Whether this incident is hazing or not isn't going to matter in the end. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck -- a lot of people are going to think it's a duck. Whether it is or not.

Discuss this all as we may and seemingly call each other out, the main point is,

"They are Gone".

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, OOPS, we have a problem

I think Delta Alum has stated very well from His experiences what can happen and will.

I have a friend who was a Regional Rep. for KS and got so fed up with the crap, "telling some Chapters to straighten up or I will recommend you be suspended.

Suddenly, He became the bad Brother. Not the Brothers who were screwing up.:o

Well, he is still an Alum with KS and proud of the fact but will have nothing to do with any locals including his own.

Get with the program, You Pay Your Money to go to school to get an education, not act like asses and be ignorant.

Schools love your money, not stupidity and will rid themselves like a cur dog that cannot be controlled!

Let's ban 'em
 

Just as health clubs are banning picture-taking cellphones, maybe chapters should ban cameras.

Let's ban 'em
 

Just as health clubs are banning picture-taking cellphones, maybe chapters should ban cameras.

Re: Let's ban 'em
 

Exactly...And if you choose to do something that is questionable, cause we all know what would piss off our nationals, then why would you take pictures of it?? I do have to say they're morons for that, but I think strippers isnt hazing...It might be hazing if you're gay, but I dont think they were....Maybe the one that turned them in was.....I mean what guy in your chapter would turn you in for strippers whipping brothers???

they probably want to look at the pictures for laughs, also their girlfriends would probably make them turn them in so the guys can say hey it wasnt me, I was forced to have sex with her and for her to whip me.......

Re: Re: Let's ban 'em
 

I don't see where anyone has said that having a stripper is hazing. It could offend some people, even some chapter members, but that's different. We need to get past that.

What gives the "appearance" of hazing is the whipping, welts, etc. That has hazing written all over it, especially to PR conscious university administrators. Dos they really have any choice? If they don't act, the town, the parents and the Trustees are going to be all over their case. Whether it was hazing in this case or not, it has that look to it. Add to the whipping the pictures of the men on the floor in strange positions.

Somone above mentioned going to a strip club. Even that isn't going to insulate the chapter if pictures are taken and get out. There is ample evidence of chapters being charged with violations far off campus.

A lot of people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence.

Here is a case in point:

Associated Press
July 7, 2004

Woman's family sues university, students over death

CONCORD, N.H. -- "The family of a Plymouth State University student killed
during a suspected hazing incident last year is suing the school and
members of a sorority, accusing them of negligence in the woman's death.

Dan Duckett, lawyer for the family of Kelly Nester, said his clients are
frustrated by the lack of criminal charges filed in the case, and with the
level of cooperation with authorities by the women who were with Nester the
night she died."

Note: As I recall, this happened off campus as the women were returning from a function.

If a man chose to go to a club and pay for a stripper to whip him, that is his choice.

If a man is in a group and is EXPECTED to have this experience, regardless of whether he wants to or not, that is not his choice and that is hazing. I have known men who had deeply spiritual convictions against this type of experience who would be extremely comfortable in the presence of a stripper, let alone being whipped by one. This is not every man's fantasy, although some men may enjoy it. I would consider being whipped by ANYBODY assault and, if linked to joining an organization, I would consider it hazing. I realize that I am a female, but having been married twice and having numerous male friends, I do believe that I know how some men feel.

I have a feeling that the argument will be "if they have a problem with it, they should say something or not participate". However, that's one of the biggest problems with hazing. They believe that if they say something against this that the others will see them differently and, possibly, deny them admission into their organization.

I believe that any Inter/National group would consider this hazing as would the courts, should someone complain or if they get caught (as they did).

Dee

I don't know whether there was hazing involved in this incident or not.

I'll give the chapter the benefit of the doubt.

What some don't want to realize is that whether it was or wasn't hazing, it gives that appearance. That is enough to make universities and nationals act.

The Greek System can't stand much of this kind of publicity.

Young leaders can think that their national officers, advisors and alumni are totally out of touch. Guess what? We went through all the same stuff -- but the stakes are MUCH HIGHER now.

The days of getting a second chance in this kind of situation are pretty much gone.

If undergraduate chapter leaders don't want to understand these dynamics then they're fooling themselves.

Why have I been censored? I said nothing offensive!!!

DID NOT KNOW YOU WERE CENSORED!:rolleyes:

Seem to be posting alright!

Maybe a Mod on a Thread found one of your posts uncalled for!

Dont Hollar Wolf to soon!:)

Kappa2, you are more right than you know. Truer words have never been spoken so well.

I know DeltaAlum gets sas frustrated as many of us do who have been in our Organizations and on GreekChat.


Thermo bomb, you do not get all of the information that some of us do on here about the goings on of All Greek Organizations.

It does get very sad when We see these posts, not only about Our Organizations, but all others.
:(

I sent you a PM.

Does being in an organization take away your right to be a consenting adult? Some people here are treating this like no one in the world would want this to happen to them, while all kinds of people are sexually into this kind of thing. To me, the fact that hazing charges have not been brought up seems to indicate that they were not 'made' to do this.

bad judgment to put it online-yes

bad publicity for the chapter, nationals and the school-yes

risk management issue-maybe

hazing-probably not

Isn't the jury still out on that and the investigation still ongoing?

My strong suspicion is that this is not an incident of hazing -- but it still has that appearance, given the pictures, etc.

While parts (or all) of this may have been consentual, the event when viewed as a whole -- which includes where it happened and the pictures -- was not all that bright.